Is the Bible given to us by God?"

[Jim Parker]

They put other Christians to the test "Do you believe the Scriptures are the inerrant Word of God?"

Does anyone who asks that question know what they mean by "infallible"?
Do they think that Moses and the prophets, David and Solomon and the Psalmists, the historians, the apostles and Christ all spoke King James English? ...That the scriptures are the transcripts of the video tapes?
The scriptures are in errant in that you may safely bet your eternal life on what they communicate.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Does anyone who asks that question know what they mean by "infallible"?
Do they think that Moses and the prophets, David and Solomon and the Psalmists, the historians, the apostles and Christ all spoke King James English? ...That the scriptures are the transcripts of the video tapes?
The scriptures are in errant in that you may safely bet your eternal life on what they communicate.

I kind of like what you write Jim. The Scriptures are right, so I kind of like it when people are pointing that out. But we don't actually bet our life on what they communicate, we bet our life on Jesus Christ communicating with us!!

The Bible does not save us: our salvation is from the Lord. And He sends the Spirit who speaks, not on His own inactive but as He hears the Spirit of God speaks. And so His words are spirit and our life, spoken to our spirit, and so it is the Spirit who give us life.

Now this is clearly explained correctly in the Bible. So in that sense we have the right and correct message, a message the tells us to bet our life on the fact that God is real and that we can indeed hear from Him!!

And so really, it is not the infallibility of the Scriptures we are betting our life on, but the infallibility of the Lord Jesus Christ we are betting our life on. Is He really going to send His Spirit and answer us when we seek Him. We are believing that and so seeking Him and listening to what we pick up in our Spirit. It is called hearing by faith!

The word of the Lord appeared to Abram in a vision and spoke to Abram. That was not the Bible, but the Lord who spoke to Abram. But it was all in a vision. Abram could have just thought it was something strange in his head, He could have just blown it off like a dream or a day dream, but Abram believed is was God talking to him and that faith was counted to Him as righteousness. Abram bet his life on that. Abram traveled to Canaan because he believed he was hearing instructions from the Lord. And Abram did other things like that. He trusted that He could hear from the Lord our God!!

And Moses did like wise. Moses believed he was hearing from God. That the angel of the Lord (and what is the Spirit of God) was speaking to him from in a burning bush, but not only then. God is spirit, and He has always been speaking to men's spirit. So we hear by listening with our spirit, and we bet our life that we do and can. We hear that small voice of the Lord, and follow the instructions we hear. We have to live by faith!

Reading ink on pages and trying to follow those instructions according to our own understanding is not going to get it down. That is why Jesus told the Jews they searched the Scriptures thinking in them they had eternal life instead of coming to Him? [See Jn 5:39}

So I like to make sure we are not telling people the Scriptures give them life. That is wrong according to the Scriptures that we agree are right, and maybe even infallible in the sense that if they say the Scriptures don't give you life, but Jesus does, we don't start thinking they are wrong!!!

So it does also concern me when I see people posting things that might make people believe they will get life by reading the Scriptures. Writing that we bet our life on the Scriptures being right sound a lot like that, but perhaps it is just that the Scriptures are right and if we believe them, and bet our life on that we will seek the voice of the Lord and His words for us. Kind of like what we see at the end of Jn 5

Jn 5 46,47 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you hear My words?

They were reading and studying the Bible then, but they did not actually believe the writings, because they were not actually seeking the spiritual voice of the Lord.! And He had to explain that to them.

Jn 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

So not ink on pages! Abram did not hear ink on pages, He hear the Lord speaking to him in a vision and believed those words were form the Lord.

Jn 8:39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham.

Well Abraham did not actually have any Scriptures at that time, but he did listen to the spiritual voice of the Lord, believe it was the Lord and act accordingly. Not perfectly, but accordingly. But they who studied the Scriptures in those days were the same ones who wanted to put Jesus to death. That we don't kill that small voice talking to us do we? We hear from the Lord, don't we?

Jn 8:47 He who is of God hears the words of God:...

Does that mean we hear someone reading the Scriptures as the book we are betting our life own, or does that mean we are hearing the small spiritual voice of the Lord? It must mean the Lord, because He told them who studied the Scriptures and were thinking in them they had eternal life --

Jn 8:47.... for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.

So it is that His sheep hear His spiritual voice and we believe it is Him. We might and should test the spirit to make sure, and like the Scriptures tell us. (See 1 Jn 4:1-3) But that too because we seek the voice of the Lord whose words are spirit and are life to us. That is: we bet our life on the belief that Jesus Christ can talk to us via His Holy Spirit!

 

[K2CHRIST]

You might be the only one that does. You seem to hold to conflicting ideas. Your position as a whole doesn't really make sense nor take into account nearly enough of what the Bible says.


While that is a part of the message, we "hear" God speak to us through the Holy Spirit when we read the Bible.


Which was spoken to certain people at a certain time and place.


We know about God and therefore come to know God through his revelation of himself in the Bible. That is rather the point.


And yet, since the Bible is inspired, the writings of Moses are the words of Jesus, of God.


What do you mean by "perfect"?

You are exceedingly selective in which verses you accept and apply. If you do not follow the Bible, you do not follow the Lord. To follow the Bible is to follow the Lord.​

According to the Bible - there are some problems with our conclusions. Lets look at a few:

1st:

Do we hear the Holy Spirit speak to us when we read our Bible?

We might or we might not!!

The religious leaders when Jesus came to earth studied the Bible but Jesus told them they did not hear His voice!!!

Jn 8:47 Who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God".

Saul was a good example. He was a Pharisee and well-studied, but when the Lord talked to him on the road Saul winds up asking, "Who are you Lord?" And since Jesus had already ascended, Jesus was speaking through the Holy Spirit who does not speak on His own initiative but as He hears He speaks. The Spirit acts like a living telephone line. And Saul was not reading the Scriptures when he finally did hear the voice of the Lord for the first time! Saul was just going down a road.

I hear from the Lord, He talks to me while driving, walking, and sometimes while reading my Bible also. He often tells me where to read in my Bible. He is not the Bible but the One who talks to me. Too many times I have people tell me the Bible is God talking to them, but that is a concern. Jesus told the Jews they searched the Scriptures thinking in them they had eternal life instead of coming to Him. So searching the Scriptures is not the same thing as hearing from Him!! Thus you should be able to separate His voice from the actual reading of the Bible!! You should be able to hear from Him at anytime, including while driving, walking, and anytime!

2cnd:

God spoke to certain people at a certain time to listen to His Son! Yes that is correct. And that is the same message that we preach today!! It is the same message because Jesus said He would never leaves us, and that His sheep hear His voice. And we know that the God is the same today and always, meaning His personality has not changed. Thus the Father still wants us to listen to His Son, "Today" The Bible is clear on this. Let me help you with a few verses that anyone really studying the Scriptures should have read at some point.

Deut 6:3 Israel, you shoud listen and be careful to do it
Deut 6:5 Hear, O Israel!..
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, not is it out of your reach. It is not in heaven, that you should says 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it? Nor is it beyond the sea that you should say, "Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it. But the word is ver near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
Deut 32 Give ear, O heavens, and let me speak; and let the earth hear the words of my mouth.
Psalms 81:8 Hear, O My people, and I will admonish you; O Israel, if you would listen to Me!
Psalms 81:11 But My people did not listen to My voice
Psalms 81:13 Of that My people would listen to Me
Psalms 94:7... Today, if you would hear His voice
Psalms 106:24,25 They did not believe in His word. but they grumbled in their tents; They did not listen to the voice of the Lord
Is 1:2 Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth' For the Lord speaks
Is 29:13 ... because this people draw near with their words and honor Me with their lip service but they remove their hearts far from Me.
Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen to the instruction of the Lord
Is 30:21 Your ears will hear a word behind you, "This is the way, walk in it, "whenever you turn to the right or to the left.
Jer 11:4 ...I commanded your forefathers in the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt... saying ' Listen to My voice, and do according to all which I command you, so you shall be My people, and I will be your God
Jer 23::23 Am I a God who is near," declares the Lord, "and not a God far off"
Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the Lord, O nations...
Ezek 12:2 "Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.
Amos 1:2... "The Lord roars from Zion, and from Jerusalem He utters His voice
Amos 5:6 Seek the Lord that you may live
Micah 5:9 The voice of the Lord will call to the city
Zep 3:2 She heeded no voice, She accepted not instruction. she did not trust in the Lord
Zep 3:7 " I seak, Surely you will revere Me, Accept instruction.'
Zep 3:17 The Lord your God is in your midst
Rm 10: 4-8 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes... the righteousness bas on faith speaks as follows" "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?" (that is to bring Christ down)...but what does it say? "The Word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching

So Jesus Christ is near us and talk to us. We hear His voice in our heart and pick it up even on our lips, and that is the word of faith we are preaching. It is what the Father said also. "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased, Listen to Him." The Father said it. Moses said it. The Psalmist said it. The prophets of old said it. Paul said it. And so I also say it. But there were those who do not say it. The Bible is the Word they preach, because with their ears they do not hear. They pretend obedience to Him. They think the Father might have told those discipline at a certain time to listen to His Son, but they do not think it is for them. They have studied the Bible and think reading and Searching the Bible is God speaking to them, but they don't realize the Bible was written to explain the problems that men have in not seeking the Lord.

No matter who explains the problem to them, they will not to understand! Moses explained. Isaiah explained. The Father explained. Jesus explained. Paul explained. And who am I but I too will explain, but they will not listen to me if they are not willing to listen to Him. "All that was for a certain time and a certain people" they will say - meaning listening to the Son is not for them. He must be dead or in a far off place called heaven, they say in their hearts. So He can not be heard from, they reason. They do not believe the writing of Moses and those others who wrote the very Bible they think will save them.

They say the Bible is the inerrant Word of God because they don't know Jesus Christ as the Word of God. They will beat their life on the Bible instead of placing their life in the Lord Jesus Christ. But the command is "Hear, O Israel", and they only read.

 

[Papa Zoom]

and is without error in the original autographs
DId you not read the above?
No where will you find i have ever said the translations are perfect... I have often said i believe God 'big enough' to keep His Word.... meaning keep it together through the ages...
To me when the Scriptures are printed on a Hallmark card it is still the Word of God ... Just as when some one here posts Scripture it is the Word...

God indeed has kept His Word intact.

 

[Politico]

On the suggestion of someone, I felt this is a good topic to talk about.

I would think that any and all Christians have to believe the Bible, in some way or another, were given to us by God! I don't see how you could in any sense call yourself a "Christian" and not believe that. But to what extent is it given to us by God? That really is the question we sometimes battle with.

I mean: is every last word in every last Bible controlled by God at all times?

If a printing error occurs at the time a Bible came off the press, was that error "given to us by God?

And if a allow for a printing error to be just a printing error, then where can that go? What about a miss print when the printing was done by hand along time ago? Couldn't we still have that? And what about all the segments and such, of old transcripts? Some translations come from earlier Bibles like the King James, and others came from considering many old sources.

And then of course there is the question of whether those people who actually wrote the Bible wrote it correctly? They heard from God - (we should believe that if we too hear His voice as in His sheep hear His voice) - but did they actually get it down word for word correctly?

I hear from the Lord. He tells me things and I can write down the things I hear from Him, but are they word for word correct when I get to writing them? There is a game I have seen played where you make a line of people, tell the first person in the line a small story and have then relate it to the person next to them, and so on, then have the person at the end of the line tell the story and see how it changed. The line doesn't have to be long to get it all messed up!

So the question of "Is the Bible given to us by God?" really is a question of "Is the Bible we have today in our hands, a good representation of what was given to the people that heard God back then and wrote it?"

I have some thoughts on this subject, but I think I'll wait to see if others want to comment first.

Printing errors are readily identifiable and have no bearing on the question of the inspiration and infallibility of Scripture.

I affirm the plenary inspiration and infallibility of Scripture.

I reject the Minority Text. From a natural perspective, If the Minority Text is eliminated, then the estimated 98% (from the field textual criticism) accuracy rating is not an issue. Even if a person receives the Minority Text, we have access to documented variances. The Holy Spirit is the ultimate Guide in such matters for understanding. The translation, preservation, dissemination, and understanding of God's Word is largely spiritual.

If a Bible student is unsure of whether or not what he/she is reading is fully inspired and infallible, then you're first recourse should be to simply ask the Lord to reveal to you the truth of the matter. God can and does provide personal assurance pertaining to Scriptural Truth (if we are willing to wait for an answer)--even though His answer to any particular question is that He cannot or will not answer that question.

Confidence in God's Word should not be solely grounded on the credentials of Bible Translators.

We have enough evidence from an unprecedented quantity of sources that we have all of the Word of God. In other words, nothing has been lost. In addition, logic and what interaction we have with God--personally and historically--demonstrates that God, as the ultimate authority that is above all authority, would necessarily record his self-revelation/requirements/instruction/laws for man. This is what lawful authority does. Such authority always works through the agency of man. There are many reason for this, some of which I understand and have previously shared with credentialed Bible teachers but have unfortunately never heard any commentator demonstrate any awareness of some of these reasons.

Scripture is demonstrably the very Word of God. It is a work of God. A work of God meets certain criteria. Scripture meets that criteria as a work of God.

From the presupposition that what Christ Jesus himself said is authoritative and accurate, He affirmed the authority, significance, and preservation of every single word of God.

 

[Politico]

I like it Reba - and I generally agree

But the point was that even if it was not punctuation perfect when people like Moses wrote it, (and how do you know that is was if we don't actually have that copy) it is not important! The important thing is that we can know the Lord!!

Now He talks to me personally about the Scriptures, and whether they are perfectly punctuated, spelled, or in the original language, does not ever come into the conversation. He is about the meaning, purpose, and message, not the original autograph. And so the message I have is that people talk to Him. He will ask them to read the Bible, and the Bible is right. He has told me that; but His meaning of the Scriptures being right, when He talks to me, is not like the meaning like presented here like in "original autographs". He never uses things like that with me. I have never heard Him like that.

Here is what I heard concerning the Scriptures being right:


WE DON’T HAVE UNDERSTANDING BECAUSE WE DON’T READ THE BIBLE WITH UNDERSTANDING, BUT OUR UNDERSTANDING…. UNDERSTAND???


THE SCRIPTURES ARE RIGHT, BUT THEY ARE NOT RIGHTEOUS. THEY HAVE NO ABILITY TO ACT. THEY ARE NOT ALIVE, BUT THE WORD OF GOD IS ALIVE AND ACTIVE.


WE DON’T USE THE LORD TO PREACH THE SCRIPTURES; WE USE THE SCRIPTURES TO PREACH THE LORD!!

That is the way He talks to me. It is a lot different than what gets posted around here!

His sheep hear His voice. That is the type of things I hear from Him. I think I know Him. I certainly know the One who spoke the above things to me. I am not presenting them as Scriptures, but words from Him who said His sheep hear His voice. And I write what I do and believe what I do because I know the One who talks to me. The first words He spoke to me were, "Read Your Bible." but they were not the last. He talks to me about the Bible all the time. He tells me where to read in it. And He also talks to me about all parts of my life. But this thread is on the Scriptures and their accuracy. I don't believe I have ever seen the original writings, and I think that if I needed to God could have even preserve them. So do we need to know the accuracy of the original autographs? We need to know God, and the Scriptures are good to use for preaching the Lord!!

I believe there are serious and fundamental errors in your post. You have said some things that makes me think you have done minimal study on the issue. Is that correct? If one takes the Minority text as legitimate, that is still 98% percent accuracy. We have access to what varince pertains to that 2%. So the issue of the necessity of an accurate and absolute standard is still relevant. Your OP addresses both the issues of translation and interpretation, the most important and relevant consideration has always been and always will be what constitutes the Word of God and its accurate written form.

Your approach seems to be more subjective than authoritatively objective.

 

[Politico]

I don't believe I have ever seen the original writings, and I think that if I needed to God could have even preserve them. So do we need to know the accuracy of the original autographs? We need to know God, and the Scriptures are good to use for preaching the Lord!!

The Survival of the originals are not necessary for accurate preservation and transmission. Jesus told the disciples that the Holy Spirit would bring to their rememberance what He had previously spoken to them. So what they wrote was a recording of what Christ had spoken--in the past. Those spoken words were in the past. But even so, they were accurately transmitted. But notice that when they wrote them, they were completely dependent on the Holy Spirit in accurately recalling those words. The depence of the Holy Spirit in the transmission of God's Word is evident. This necessarily applies to transmission throughout history. If it is otherwise, then the fallibility and weakness of man would be responsible for preventing God's word form reaching the nations.

God will not allow the destruction of the originals to hinder transmission. Moses destroyed God's word--that God had written with His own finger--but God immediately had them recorded by moses. Notice that even though God worked through the agency of man (Moses) to recreate God's Word in written form, that re-creation was just as accurate and authoritative as the original. If it was not, then there would be no real authority. And we must note that the very life and death of persons were dependent upon the written accuracy of God's law and of His revelation of Himself. Shall we believe that God's written Word, if it was truly a matter of life and death then, is only so-so accurate now--considering that the issue of life and death is still a pressing reality?

Christians need to understand that the act and process of God's spoken Word being transmitted in the written form is a parallel to the work of the Cross. That is, God condescending to the low estate of man, yet not being limited by such limitation. Just as God Himself was not limited by the weakness of man by being "made in the likeness of men" (Philippians 2:7); Likewise, God was not limited by the fallibility/weakness of man by working though man to create and transmit His Word to the world (neither is He currently limited by man in this matter). There is much more to be said on these important issues, but that would take considerable time and effort. There is an abundance of resources to study that is readily available.

 

[OzSpen]

A user on another thread wrote:

"This question has come up on another thread...
this site says this:
We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.
What do you believe ?"

What is meant by that? What happens if a Bible has an error coming off the press?

I sell books for a living, and mistake happen at the printer from time to time. The that event make that user and God wrong?

K2C,

What does part of the CFnet statement of faith state: The Bible "is without error in the original autographs". It is not speaking about what comes off printing presses after Gutenberg and today. It speaks about the original documents and NOT ANY translation that are inspired by God (God-breathed).

If we don't get this fundamental correct, we'll have certain translations of the Bible favoured that deliberately incorporate error (I'm thinking of a Bible such as The New World Translation).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

.... But this thread is on the Scriptures and their accuracy. I don't believe I have ever seen the original writings, and I think that if I needed to God could have even preserve them. So do we need to know the accuracy of the original autographs? We need to know God, and the Scriptures are good to use for preaching the Lord!!

K2C,

I also have never seen the original documents of OT or NT.

People sometimes say to me: We don’t have the originals so it is pointless to talk about the inerrancy of documents we do not have. Is that so?

I have found R. Laird Harris’s explanation helpful in explaining the need to have authoritative original documents behind the copies, even though we currently do not have access to the originals (autographa). He wrote:

“Reflection will show that the doctrine of verbal inspiration is worthwhile even though the originals have perished. An illustration may be helpful. Suppose we wish to measure the length of a certain pencil. With a tape measure we measure it as 6 1/2 inches. A more carefully made office ruler indicates 6 9/16 inches. Checking with an engineer’s scale, we find it to be slightly more than 6.58 inches. Careful measurement with a steel scale under laboratory conditions reveals it to be 6.577 inches. Not satisfied still, we send the pencil to Washington, where master gauges indicate a length of 6.5774 inches. The master gauges themselves are checked against the standard United States yard marked on platinum bar preserved in Washington. Now, suppose that we should read in the newspapers that a clever criminal had run off with the platinum bar and melted it down for the precious metal. As a matter of fact, this once happened to Britain’s standard yard! What difference would this make to us? Very little. None of us has ever seen the platinum bar. Many of us perhaps never realized it existed. Yet we blithely use tape measures, rulers, scales, and similar measuring devices. These approximate measures derive their value from their being dependent on more accurate gauges. But even the approximate has tremendous value—if it has had a true standard behind it” (Harris 1969:88-89).​

To understand this teaching, I recommend a read of, Greg L Bahnsen 1979, “The inerrancy of the autographa” in N. L. Geisler (ed.) 1979. Inerrancy. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 150-193.

Oz

References
Geisler, N. L. (ed.) 1979. Inerrancy. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House. Also available online at: Inerrancy.

Harris, R. L. 1957, 1969. Inspiration and Canonicity of the Bible. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

 

[Edward]

What makes some of you guys unsure that God could get a good copy of His Word into your hand across the centuries and translations?! Would that have been too hard for Him?

Can man spoil the plans of God?!

 

[Edward]

I also have never seen the original documents of OT or NT.

They're available online Brother! You've never punched them up and looked at them?! They scanned them or photographed them. They are there...

 

[eddif]

God allows statements to be examined.

Maybe this is totally off topic, and maybe not. I do not plan on a campaign to do more than just make a one time post here.

God allows us to hear some wrong statements in the Bible. The book of Job is full of wrong theology by the complete chapter. Jobs friends are allowed to make totally wrong discourses. Of course Job follows their wrong speaking with corrective dialog. To me it is hard to unwind all the wrong theology. It does not seem to bother God at all. The solution is presented.

Peter made a few wrong statements that Jesus corrected. Peter had some wrong actions that Paul challenged.

The Bible is open about what is going on. Man would cover up things that God seems more than able to expose and correct.

I would say God is a master teacher in every way. The book is from God.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Free]

They're available online Brother! You've never punched them up and looked at them?! They scanned them or photographed them. They are there...

The original autographs do not exist.

 

[OzSpen]

The original autographs do not exist.

Free,

I agree that we have not found the originals (autographa) of Scripture. However, that does not mean they don't exist. They had to have existed for us to have the Scriptures passed down to us,.

We have not uncovered, found, or discovered them yet.

Oz

 

[Honey]

On the suggestion of someone, I felt this is a good topic to talk about.

I would think that any and all Christians have to believe the Bible, in some way or another, were given to us by God! I don't see how you could in any sense call yourself a "Christian" and not believe that. But to what extent is it given to us by God? That really is the question we sometimes battle with.

I mean: is every last word in every last Bible controlled by God at all times?

If a printing error occurs at the time a Bible came off the press, was that error "given to us by God?

And if a allow for a printing error to be just a printing error, then where can that go? What about a miss print when the printing was done by hand along time ago? Couldn't we still have that? And what about all the segments and such, of old transcripts? Some translations come from earlier Bibles like the King James, and others came from considering many old sources.

And then of course there is the question of whether those people who actually wrote the Bible wrote it correctly? They heard from God - (we should believe that if we too hear His voice as in His sheep hear His voice) - but did they actually get it down word for word correctly?

I hear from the Lord. He tells me things and I can write down the things I hear from Him, but are they word for word correct when I get to writing them? There is a game I have seen played where you make a line of people, tell the first person in the line a small story and have then relate it to the person next to them, and so on, then have the person at the end of the line tell the story and see how it changed. The line doesn't have to be long to get it all messed up!

So the question of "Is the Bible given to us by God?" really is a question of "Is the Bible we have today in our hands, a good representation of what was given to the people that heard God back then and wrote it?"

I have some thoughts on this subject, but I think I'll wait to see if others want to comment first.

I think it it was men over the centuries wouldn't have presumed to decide what constitutes the canon.

 

[Free]

Free,

I agree that we have not found the originals (autographa) of Scripture. However, that does not mean they don't exist. They had to have existed for us to have the Scriptures passed down to us,.

We have not uncovered, found, or discovered them yet.

Oz

Yes, quite right. That is what I meant. Thank you for that important point of clarification.

 

[OzSpen]

I think it it was men over the centuries wouldn't have presumed to decide what constitutes the canon.

Honey,

'Men over the centuries' were guided in decided the books included in the NT canon.

Historically, the oldest known list of NT books is the Muratorian canon, dated by most scholars to around AD 170-200. It’s a fragment of a manuscript (MSS), the beginning and end of the MSS are missing, so it is often referred to as the Muratorian fragment. Scholars consider it to be a bad Latin translation that had an original Greek text behind it that dates to the late 2nd century.

This list “was discovered in an Italian library by Ludovico Antonio Muratori, a famous historian of the time”. Remembering that some of the list was missing in the MSS, the list of NT books in the fragment included:

• Gospels: Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John
• Acts
• Letters of Paul to churches: Corinthians (2), Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Galatians, Thessalonians (2), Romans
• Letters of Paul to individuals: Philemon, Titus, Timothy (2)
• Jude, John (2)
• Wisdom of Solomon(!)
• Revelation of John
• Revelation of Peter(!), questionable
• Shepherd (or Pastor) of Hermas, good but not be read in church (source).

Hebrews, 1 & 2 Peter, & 3 John are missing.

So there we have an early list of books being gathered by human beings to form the NT canon.

As for the exact 27 writings of the NT that we have today, they were contained in the Easter Letter of Athanasius in AD 367. He stated that these were the only recognised writings to be read in church services. The first church council to confirm the list of “inspired” NT writings to be read in churches was at the Synod of Hippo in AD 393. However, we don’t have any surviving documents from that council. We know of the decision reached in 393 because reference was made to it at the third Synod of Carthage in AD 397. This Synod confirmed the exact list of 27 writings that are in the NT we use today.

Oz

 

[Honey]

Do you ever wonder how Saul's prison letters got out of prison? When he was put there for spreading the gospel in the first place, how did he come to have writing materials and then an accomplice that allowed his writings to leave the confines?

I've listened to many scholars speak of the autographa, or autographs, the original writings that came to be copied and then were ultimately included in the canon. I think those are likely in someones private collection. Or in the vatican archival library deep in where no one but the special class is able to take a peek.

 

[OzSpen]

Do you ever wonder how Saul's prison letters got out of prison? When he was put there for spreading the gospel in the first place, how did he come to have writing materials and then an accomplice that allowed his writings to leave the confines?

Honey,

These are excellent questions that I haven't thought much about until you raised them. Could some explanations surround these possibilities?

• We know that some of Paul's imprisonments were in physically rough & wretched conditions in cells where he was in chains (Acts 27:1-12).
• We also know that there were times when Paul & Peter used an amanuensis (an assistant who copied manuscripts) for his writings. See: Rom 16:2; 1 Cor 16:21; Col 4:18; 2 Thess 3:17; 1 Pet 5:12.
• However, there were some of Paul's imprisonments where he was under house arrest and it was possibly like probation today where he was able to move about in the city but had to report to someone. Could this be suggested by Acts 28:16-31 and he had many more opportunities to write?
• Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon are regarded as the Prison Epistles that Paul wrote from prison. This is a suggestion by me: We don't know over what period of time it took Paul to write one of his prison epistles. Could an amanuensis (scribe) visit him on a number of occasions and write the next section of, say, Ephesians every time he visited Paul?

In all of this I'm arguing from silence as we have not been told, to my knowledge, how he was able to write from prison about the very Gospel that got him thrown into prison and smuggle his MSS out of prison.

I'll wait until I get to glory to find out, but that probably won't interest me then. I'll have better things to enjoy.

Just some thoughts from a fellow traveller.

Oz

 

[Edward]

The original autographs do not exist.

I'm not sure who you're trying to convince here but scripture says the word of God wont pass away...so their somewhere. They do exist.