Is the Bible given to us by God?"

[Count Duckula]

If anything there are more issues with translation choices than anything. The source material is fine. The constant scholarly amendments are more like hair splitting. First they only had a primacy towards oldest text and if it was in Hebrew for the old testament and Greek for the new testament (the old has some chaldean and aramaic). Now they are allowing all languages, commentaries of questionable ages, and allowing more primacy towards majority text versus age of text. It seems now that it's just job security for many for this craziness. Most Bible's are fine. There are just certain words that you will have to do your homework to get the correct meaning and not what's being pushed by specific groups no matter the intent.

 

[OzSpen]

If anything there are more issues with translation choices than anything. The source material is fine. The constant scholarly amendments are more like hair splitting. First they only had a primacy towards oldest text and if it was in Hebrew for the old testament and Greek for the new testament (the old has some chaldean and aramaic). Now they are allowing all languages, commentaries of questionable ages, and allowing more primacy towards majority text versus age of text. It seems now that it's just job security for many for this craziness. Most Bible's are fine. There are just certain words that you will have to do your homework to get the correct meaning and not what's being pushed by specific groups no matter the intent.

Count,

I find it disappointing that you make all of these generalised statements without even one example to support the claims made.

The statement, 'not what's being pushed by specific groups no matter the intent' sounds like an agenda.

Oz

 

[Free]

I'm not sure who you're trying to convince here but scripture says the word of God wont pass away...so they’re somewhere. They do exist.

They obviously existed at one time but no one can say whether or not they still exist. My intent, as already discussed, was that we have not found them. It is quite possible that most or all of them have all been destroyed. Your misuse of Scripture has no bearing in the matter.

 

[Honey]

Honey,

These are excellent questions that I haven't thought much about until you raised them. Could some explanations surround these possibilities?

• We know that some of Paul's imprisonments were in physically rough & wretched conditions in cells where he was in chains (Acts 27:1-12).
• We also know that there were times when Paul & Peter used an amanuensis (an assistant who copied manuscripts) for his writings. See: Rom 16:2; 1 Cor 16:21; Col 4:18; 2 Thess 3:17; 1 Pet 5:12.
• However, there were some of Paul's imprisonments where he was under house arrest and it was possibly like probation today where he was able to move about in the city but had to report to someone. Could this be suggested by Acts 28:16-31 and he had many more opportunities to write?
• Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon are regarded as the Prison Epistles that Paul wrote from prison. This is a suggestion by me: We don't know over what period of time it took Paul to write one of his prison epistles. Could an amanuensis (scribe) visit him on a number of occasions and write the next section of, say, Ephesians every time he visited Paul?

In all of this I'm arguing from silence as we have not been told, to my knowledge, how he was able to write from prison about the very Gospel that got him thrown into prison and smuggle his MSS out of prison.

I'll wait until I get to glory to find out, but that probably won't interest me then. I'll have better things to enjoy.

Just some thoughts from a fellow traveller.

Oz

Great points.
I would wonder though if the prison guards would permit a scribe into the prison for this purpose.
Roman guards were punished if they violated the laws concerning confinement of prisoners. Probably harshly given Roman government wasn't exactly all warm and cuddly in its laws and prosecutions. Think, crucifixion, where the victims were tied or nailed naked and left to suffer, die , and rot. A plaque of sorts was nailed above their head on the vertical beam of the cross to report the crime they were suffering for. And to forewarn others the fate that awaits if they are such an offender.

I'm not sure who you're trying to convince here but scripture says the word of God wont pass away...so their somewhere. They do exist.

Yes, they do. It is impossible to state they do not exist. Not even scholars that I've listened to in lecture series state this.

 

[OzSpen]

Great points.
I would wonder though if the prison guards would permit a scribe into the prison for this purpose.
Roman guards were punished if they violated the laws concerning confinement of prisoners. Probably harshly given Roman government wasn't exactly all warm and cuddly in its laws and prosecutions. Think, crucifixion, where the victims were tied or nailed naked and left to suffer, die , and rot. A plaque of sorts was nailed above their head on the vertical beam of the cross to report the crime they were suffering for. And to forewarn others the fate that awaits if they are such an offender.

Yes, they do. It is impossible to state they do not exist. Not even scholars that I've listened to in lecture series state this.

Honey,

Of this we can be sure: The Lord wanted Paul's prison letters in Scripture. Somehow, in the sovereignty of God, the letters were written in prison and preserved for our benefit.

Oz

 

[eddif]

I'm not sure who you're trying to convince here but scripture says the word of God wont pass away...so their somewhere. They do exist.

Ok I will answer, and be accused of being off topic, and or argumentative. LOL

Genesis 1:3 KJV
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

The light existing for eternity was preservation of the words of God.
1. Recorded in Bible
2. In existence as photons or wave theory
3. As Jesus (light of world) metaphysical
4. No need of sun or moon in New Jerusalem. Metaphysical
5. Eyes of our understanding being enlightened.
Ephesians 1:18 KJV
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints

Letters of Paul under inspiration of God.
........
The word can be expressed as audible sound or a product of our requesting a mountain to be moved.

Due to the Bible being given to us by God:
We understand all these things (and much more).

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm not sure who you're trying to convince here but scripture says the word of God wont pass away...so their somewhere. They do exist.

the words "original autographs" refer to the original pages written by the original author.
If any of them still exist, nobody has seen them.
The "word of God" is the ideas, commands, etc. which God revealed. Those are NOT the written words on some kind of writing material. Those are the thoughts of God. They don't "pass away."
Writing material DOES "pass away." It oxidizes (that's why old paper turns yellow and starts to break up.) It gets destroyed in fires; it gets worn out and is destroyed so that the worn out parts won't get misread.
You are conflating God's "spoken" word with words written down on (something like) paper.
What is written down can be lost or destroyed.
What God actually said (like spoken words) cannot be destroyed.

 

[Jim Parker]

I mean: is every last word in every last Bible controlled by God at all times?
If a printing error occurs at the time a Bible came off the press, was that error "given to us by God?

It is the message of the Bible that is inerrant, not the words into which it has been translated.
"As of October 2017 the full Bible has been translated into 670 languages, the New Testament alone into 1521 languages and Bible portions or stories into 1121 other languages." (Wikipedia)

 

[OzSpen]

the words "original autographs" refer to the original pages written by the original author.
If any of them still exist, nobody has seen them.
The "word of God" is the ideas, commands, etc. which God revealed. Those are NOT the written words on some kind of writing material. Those are the thoughts of God. They don't "pass away."
Writing material DOES "pass away." It oxidizes (that's why old paper turns yellow and starts to break up.) It gets destroyed in fires; it gets worn out and is destroyed so that the worn out parts won't get misread.
You are conflating God's "spoken" word with words written down on (something like) paper.
What is written down can be lost or destroyed.
What God actually said (like spoken words) cannot be destroyed.

Jim,

You claim, "What God actually said (like spoken words) cannot be destroyed". How do I know what God actually said, his spoken words to Moses, Jeremiah, the 12 disciples, Paul, etc?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It is the message of the Bible that is inerrant, not the words into which it has been translated.
"As of October 2017 the full Bible has been translated into 670 languages, the New Testament alone into 1521 languages and Bible portions or stories into 1121 other languages." (Wikipedia)

Jim,

You stated, "It is the message of the Bible that is inerrant, not the words into which it has been translated". I agree with the latter clause that the translated words of the Bible (in so many languages) are not inerrant.

However, I disagree with the view that "the message of the Bible" is inerrant, because that is not what I understand Scripture teaches.

Let's use 2 Tim 3:16 (ESV) as an example, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" This verse does not say that the entire message in the Bible is breathed out by God. It states that the total of "all Scripture" is breathed out by God and is thus perfect - inerrant - because God is perfect (in the original documents). All Scripture is useful / profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training. It doesn't state that all the spiritual messages in Scripture are useful for teaching and rebuking.

This is not an incidental doctrine. All Scripture = every word from Genesis to Revelation (in the originals). We don't look to the spiritual "messages" in Scripture to determine what is authoritative and inerrant and sufficient for training every person in righteousness to have a just and correct relationship with God.

This is explained further in 2 Pet 1:21 (NIV), "For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit". Here we see that even though God used human beings to speak from God, he did not indicate that only the 'message' was inspired but that what prophets prophesied was was from God.

Jesus was very precise that it was not the message that was inspired of God (breathed out by God), but that every word was inspired. This is called verbal, plenary inspiration of Scripture. Jesus' view was stated in Matt 5:17-18 (NIV),

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished".​

Here we have Jesus establishing, not that "the message" of Scripture is God-breathed but that right down to the smallest letter of a word will not disappear from God's Law until it is fulfilled.

While many in the churches may not know the language of verbal, plenary inspiration, it simply means that every word of Scripture in the original texts was inspired or breathed out by God.

See the brief, helpful article that supports this view, What does it mean that the Bible is inspired? - Got Questions

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,

You claim, "What God actually said (like spoken words) cannot be destroyed". How do I know what God actually said, his spoken words to Moses, Jeremiah, the 12 disciples, Paul, etc?

Oz

BY faith, I believe that what God wanted us to understand is recorded in scripture.
How's that? Better?

jim

 

[eddif]

Words exist they just seem to morph.

Romans 1:20

Let there be light - words
Light - creation.

Taken farther along

The sun as a sign of the hidden nature of God.

The power of nuclear fission / fusion produces sunlight.

The light energy ( through photosynthesis / faith ?) becomes plants, oxygen, fruit
Thus
We exist
We say to the mountain be moved
The mountain moves (physical / spiritual ?).
New born again people exist and speak.

Ok I mixed physical and spiritual, but that is
really what Romans 1:20 does.

Words change into things that give a living word. Sharper than a two edged sword (able to do work)

Original words of God are just alive.

Redneck
eddif

 

[OzSpen]

BY faith, I believe that what God wanted us to understand is recorded in scripture.
How's that? Better?

jim

Nice try, Jim,

That doesn't address the issue I raised of verbal, plenary inspiration (every word is God-breathed in the original documents) and not the inspiration of the 'message'.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

Nice try, Jim,

That doesn't address the issue I raised of verbal, plenary inspiration (every word is God-breathed in the original documents) and not the inspiration of the 'message'.

Oz

Yeah.
I do not accept the idea that God chose every word that the original writer wrote.
It is unnecessary.
And it has been rendered moot anyway since the "original monographs" are not in existence and, even if they were, we would not be reading them. We would be reading translations of copies of copies of copies of copies......
There are no manuscripts which date to within 1000 years of the "original monograph" of the Torah.

The exact meaning of a written statement, with its cultural and temporal nuances, cannot be precisely translated into another language. For example, in Spanish, an audience showing their approval and appreciation of a performance would be said to, "Echar mil flores." That is, to throw a thousand flowers. In English, we call that a "standing ovation" whether anyone hurls flowers at the performers or not.

Jesus told His apostles to make disciples of all nations. He made no mention of teaching all nations to become fluent in the languages of the "original monographs" in order to be discipled. That, of course, is an argument from silence but, in fact, we find that it was the standard procedure to translate the scriptures into the language of the people being evangelized. Thus there are early Arabic, Coptic, and Aramaic versions of the scriptures.
It is not the original written words which are essential but the original message which is essential.

The insistence of the "plenary inspiration (every word is God-breathed in the original documents)" is, I believe, unfounded, illogical and totally unnecessary.

Who cares anyway? The no longer existent "original monographs" are not available to be read and everything that has come down to us over the millennia are some form of translation of those originals. The oldest existent texts date to about 200BC. (Isaiah and Habakkuk) The oldest complete Pentateuch (Book of Moses, Torah) dates to about 1155 to 1225 AD (https://www.newsmax.com › Home › TheWire)

I don't find the discussion of the "verbal, plenary inspiration (every word is God-breathed in the original documents) " worthwhile. We can only speculate. The idea is, to me, a fabricated orthodoxy designed to fill human needs for security. I don't need it to trust that the modern, English, translation I have is "given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness," (2Tim 3:16) as is every other decent translation whether in Japanese or Portuguese or Punjabi or Swahili none of which are the languages of the "original monographs." But they MUST be reliable to communicate God's revelation to man and THAT is the crux of the issue, not whether of not every word was picked by God to be written down by a human writer.

IMHO

jim

 

[eddif]

God said let theire be light
That light raced across the cosmos. If you were / are on the far side of the cosmos you could see the original light created by words. Those words started as a thought.

Let us make man in our image. The thoughts created Adam ( with the ability to speaks and reproduce). In mankind those thoughts are still reproducing.

The Ten Commandments were written in stone. Moses broke the first copy, but God made a second set of stone tablets. Since that time: clay tablets, written on all sorts of media, iron oxide on Mylar, lazer read CDs have recorded the Bible.

The new birth puts the Law in our heart and mind. Romans 7:25

The words never pass away but the existence may change form.

The prophetic Word became Jesus.

The preached Word becomes new Christians.

Redneck (Word rambler ?)
eddif

 

[OzSpen]

Yeah.
I do not accept the idea that God chose every word that the original writer wrote.
It is unnecessary.
And it has been rendered moot anyway since the "original monographs" are not in existence and, even if they were, we would not be reading them. We would be reading translations of copies of copies of copies of copies......
There are no manuscripts which date to within 1000 years of the "original monograph" of the Torah.
jim

Jim,

I provided biblical evidence from Jesus in a previous post from
Matt 5:17-18 (NIV),

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished".

Jesus was convinced that the "smallest letter" and "the least stroke of a pen" were important in his "Law". I should not be any less concerned that every word is inspired by God and not just the message.

The fact that we don't have the original documents is no hindrance to the verbal, plenary inspiration of the Scripture (every word of Scripture in the originals is God-breathed). This is not dictation theory of inspiration, but is speaking of the extent of the inspiration of Scripture -- down to the "smallest letter" and the "least stroke of a pen" -- and not down to the "message" only.

Because we don't have access to the original documents is not linked with understanding that every word is God-breathed.

In my wallet I have an Aussie $1 coin. It is a copy of the original in the Australian mint in Canberra. I've never seen that original but I know that this copy is based on the original. My having the image of the original demonstrates that there is an original.

I have found R. Laird Harris’s explanation helpful in explaining the need to have authoritative original documents behind the copies, even though we currently do not have access to the originals (autographa). He wrote:

“Reflection will show that the doctrine of verbal inspiration is worthwhile even though the originals have perished. An illustration may be helpful. Suppose we wish to measure the length of a certain pencil. With a tape measure we measure it as 6 1/2 inches. A more carefully made office ruler indicates 6 9/16 inches. Checking with an engineer’s scale, we find it to be slightly more than 6.58 inches. Careful measurement with a steel scale under laboratory conditions reveals it to be 6.577 inches. Not satisfied still, we send the pencil to Washington, where master gauges indicate a length of 6.5774 inches. The master gauges themselves are checked against the standard United States yard marked on platinum bar preserved in Washington. Now, suppose that we should read in the newspapers that a clever criminal had run off with the platinum bar and melted it down for the precious metal. As a matter of fact, this once happened to Britain’s standard yard! What difference would this make to us? Very little. None of us has ever seen the platinum bar. Many of us perhaps never realized it existed. Yet we blithely use tape measures, rulers, scales, and similar measuring devices. These approximate measures derive their value from their being dependent on more accurate gauges. But even the approximate has tremendous value—if it has had a true standard behind it” (Harris 1969:88-89).​

​

I [Jim] don't find the discussion of the "verbal, plenary inspiration (every word is God-breathed in the original documents) " worthwhile. We can only speculate. The idea is, to me, a fabricated orthodoxy designed to fill human needs for security.

In this thread you have stated that it is the message that is inspired. We cannot arrive at "the message" without the words that are God-breathed.

There is absolutely no speculation here at all. I've provided evidence from Jesus and 2 Tim 3:16 (NIV), "All Scripture is God-breathed". Not some of Scripture that is the "message" God wants to convey. "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Matt 5:18 KJV). There is no "fabricated orthodoxy" here to fill an emotional void. Every word being inspired by God is the doctrine derived from Scripture itself - "All Scripture is God-breathed".

The link between the original documents and the refusal to accept that all of the words of Scripture are God-breathed is a view, in my understanding, that misreads the Scriptures I've provided.

Oz


Works consulted

Harris, R. L. 1957, 1969. Inspiration and Canonicity of the Bible. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jesus was convinced that the "smallest letter" and "the least stroke of a pen" were important in his "Law".

It's literature; that's a figure of speech: hyperbole in fact.
The original Hebrew of about 1500 BC did not have "jots" and "titles". Those were added later.

Because we don't have access to the original documents is not linked with understanding that every word is God-breathed.

True. And I did not suggest that they were not inspired by God.
I use the word "Inspired" because neither I nor the average reader has any idea what the NIV translators had in mind when they translated θεόπνευστος [theopneustos] as "God breathed".

The whole line of thinking is futile. It's trying to draw specific, technical conclusions based on non-specific, figures of speech.

I don't see the point of discussing how and to what extent God was involved in the writing of scripture. Did he "possess" the body of the writer and operate his fingers to write? Did He dictate to the writer audibly? We have no idea. And I don't care.

What is important to me is that the Bible is the inerrant revelation of God's love and will for mankind and that I can bet my eternal life that that message is 100% accurate in whatever language it is written. Given that, why should I care about how God got the first edition written? What matters to me is what I have right here, right now. The no-longer-existent "original, plenary inspired, monograph" is not available. So we are stuck working with what IS available.

And the "standard" behind our current translations, is God, not the lost first edition about which we can only speculate as to the level of involvement God had with the scribe. All we can really say is that the writer was "inspired" by God.

And I'm content with that.

jim

 

[OzSpen]

It's literature; that's a figure of speech: hyperbole in fact.
The original Hebrew of about 1500 BC did not have "jots" and "titles". Those were added later.

True. And I did not suggest that they were not inspired by God.
I use the word "Inspired" because neither I nor the average reader has any idea what the NIV translators had in mind when they translated θεόπνευστος [theopneustos] as "God breathed".

The whole line of thinking is futile. It's trying to draw specific, technical conclusions based on non-specific, figures of speech.

I don't see the point of discussing how and to what extent God was involved in the writing of scripture. Did he "possess" the body of the writer and operate his fingers to write? Did He dictate to the writer audibly? We have no idea. And I don't care.

What is important to me is that the Bible is the inerrant revelation of God's love and will for mankind and that I can bet my eternal life that that message is 100% accurate in whatever language it is written. Given that, why should I care about how God got the first edition written? What matters to me is what I have right here, right now. The no-longer-existent "original, plenary inspired, monograph" is not available. So we are stuck working with what IS available.

And the "standard" behind our current translations, is God, not the lost first edition about which we can only speculate as to the level of involvement God had with the scribe. All we can really say is that the writer was "inspired" by God.

And I'm content with that.

jim

Jim,

Your "figures of speech" understanding of "jots and tittles" (KJV) is your interpretation of this passage. "Jots and tittles" were "the smallest letter ... the least stroke of a pen" as Matt 5:18 (NIV) is translated.

Oz

 

[eddif]

Genetic disorders:

I do not know enough to fully discuss this. I do in a dark glass way know that the discussion of biblical accuracy perseveration is in a way related to genetic purity.

In cell replication all the process is overseen that no errors suddenly appear and compromise future generations. Errors are set aside.

Some books of the Bible have been set aside because of supposed errors. Discussion tries to find the errors. Right now the problems are not resolved. Purity of the majority of scripture fulfillment is preserved through doctrinal examination.

Matthew 5:17 kjv
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The need for the prophets and Law is somehow needed, to see things be done properly. Lawfully used Law though.

Fulfillment is our goal. The scriptures should be turned into eternal life.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Papa Zoom]

Nice try, Jim,

That doesn't address the issue I raised of verbal, plenary inspiration (every word is God-breathed in the original documents) and not the inspiration of the 'message'.

Oz

I'm not seeing the difference Oz. The words convey the 'message" God intended to communicate. So what am I missing?

In Christ, Papa.