Is the Biblical Concept of God Strictly Monotheistic or Does It Allow for a Triune Nature?

[My Rock]

he question of whether the biblical concept of God is strictly monotheistic or allows for a Triune nature is a significant theological debate that has persisted for centuries. On one hand, the Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4 clearly states, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one," which seems to affirm a strict monotheism. On the other hand, passages such as Matthew 28:19, where Jesus commands the disciples to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," have been interpreted by Trinitarians to suggest a Triune nature of God. How do we reconcile these seemingly divergent viewpoints? Does the New Testament reveal a complexity in the nature of God that the Old Testament does not explicitly address, or is the doctrine of the Trinity an extra biblical development?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings My Rock,

the Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4 clearly states, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one," which seems to affirm a strict monotheism.

Yes, I endorse that there is One God, the Father.

is the doctrine of the Trinity an extra biblical development?

Yes, 3rd or 4th Century development.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

he question of whether the biblical concept of God is strictly monotheistic or allows for a Triune nature is a significant theological debate that has persisted for centuries. On one hand, the Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4 clearly states, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one," which seems to affirm a strict monotheism. On the other hand, passages such as Matthew 28:19, where Jesus commands the disciples to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," have been interpreted by Trinitarians to suggest a Triune nature of God. How do we reconcile these seemingly divergent viewpoints? Does the New Testament reveal a complexity in the nature of God that the Old Testament does not explicitly address, or is the doctrine of the Trinity an extra biblical development?

It’s important to keep in mind that monotheism is different than the nature of God. This is is where Unitarians very often go wrong, conflating passages about monotheism with unitarianism. Monotheism is opposed to polytheism; Trinitarianism is opposed to unitarianism. Monotheism does leave the door open for Trinitarianism. The OT never shuts the door on the possibility that God is triune.

While the formal development of the doctrine of the Trinity is much later, all the foundations of the Trinity are in Scripture. The early church believed Jesus was God but not the Father, and that there was only one God.

 

[My Rock]

I have been trying in other forums to get anyone to answer straightly if the can work the Trinity doctrine into these passages in a truthful Biblical way:

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD."
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me."
Isaiah 45:21-22 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."
Deuteronomy 4:35 "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him."
Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
1 Kings 8:60 "That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else."
2 Samuel 7:22 "Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears."
1 Chronicles 17:20 "O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears."
Hosea 13:4 "Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me."
Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
Mark 12:32 "And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he."
John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
Romans 3:30 "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."
1 Corinthians 8:4 "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one."
1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
Galatians 3:20 "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."
Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

 

[for_his_glory]

1. God is Spirit, John 4:24, not flesh and blood and in the OT either spoke directly to the prophets or by angels and also various objects like a burning bush or an ass for example. Between the OT and NT God was silent towards Israel as when they returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity they came back as merchants and not shepherds as they were disobedient to God going after other gods, Book of Malachi.

2. Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the Baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21

3. After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awaking's in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15

Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.

Jesus being the right arm of God. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[Free]

I have been trying in other forums to get anyone to answer straightly if the can work the Trinity doctrine into these passages in a truthful Biblical way:

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD."
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me."
Isaiah 45:21-22 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."
Deuteronomy 4:35 "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him."
...
1 Kings 8:60 "That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else."
2 Samuel 7:22 "Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears."
1 Chronicles 17:20 "O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears."
Hosea 13:4 "Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me."
Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
Mark 12:32 "And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he."
John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
Romans 3:30 "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."
1 Corinthians 8:4 "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one."
1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
Galatians 3:20 "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."
Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

It isn't about whether or not we can "work the Trinity doctrine into these passages in a truthful Biblical way," but rather understanding what those passages are saying in relation to the Trinity. Those are all passages which speak of monotheism. If someone were to suggest that they contradict the Trinity, that would be what I was referring to--conflating passages speaking of monotheism with those of the nature of God, that is, how he exists in and of himself. Although, there are a few verses in there that need addressing since they aren't taking context into account and actually contradict unitarianism.

But, first, consider what Paul writes to Titus:

Tit 1:3 and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;
Tit 1:4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Tit 2:10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.
...
Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

So, as the OT states, God is the Saviour, which Paul reiterates. Yet, in the same breath he calls both God and Jesus our Saviour. Just something to think about.

In getting back to all your verses, we must look at three foundations of the doctrine of the Trinity. The first is monotheism--there was, is, and ever will be only one being that is God. The second is that there are three divine persons. The third foundation is that the persons are coequal and coeternal. There are numerous passages to support each of those foundations, which is, of course, precisely why they are foundational.

Looking at John 17:3, it must first be noted that it does not preclude Jesus from also being truly God. Jesus, as the Son incarnate, is upholding monotheism and acknowledging his submission to the Father. Second, notice that eternal life is found in knowing both the Father and the Son.

Third, we see just two verses later:

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)

But, what did Yahweh say?

Isa 48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another. (ESV)

Is Jesus contradicting what Yahweh said? Let's first look at something John said:

Joh 12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.
Joh 12:37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,
Joh 12:38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
Joh 12:40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Joh 12:41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. (ESV)

Who does John say Isaiah saw in "his glory and spoke of him"? Clearly, John is meaning that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus, or rather, the Son. Looking at the context of what Isaiah was talking about:

Isa 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
Isa 6:3 And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!”
Isa 6:4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
…
Isa 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.”
Isa 6:9 And he said, “Go, and say to this people: “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” (ESV)

So, who did Isaiah actually see? He saw Yahweh in all his glory. Once again, John supports what he said in John 1:1--that the Word was in intimate, interpersonal relationship with God for all eternity past, meaning that the Word is also God in nature.

Throughout the entire book of John, from beginning to end, there is one consistent message about who Jesus, the Son of God, is--God in human flesh, both truly man and truly God, who, in becoming flesh subjected himself to the will of the Father for our salvation and the redemption of creation.

 

[Free]

I have been trying in other forums to get anyone to answer straightly if the can work the Trinity doctrine into these passages in a truthful Biblical way:

1 Corinthians 8:4 "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one."
1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

First, we shouldn't leave out verse 5, since Paul dismisses the idea of any other actual god or lord, supporting the monotheism he had just stated in verse 4:

1Co 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”
1Co 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

Second, notice that at the end of verse 4, Paul says "there is no God but one." That is, at least in part, from Deut 6:4, which you also provided:

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (ESV)

Third, now look at what Paul writes in verse 6: "there is one God, the Father . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ." Note that verse 6 is a continuing argument from verse 4. Putting the argument together then, without the aside in verse 5, we see: "we know . . . that there is no God but one yet for us there is one God, the Father . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ." This strongly suggests that Paul was expanding on the Shema.

Fourth, if a person wants the verse to say that "one God, the Father" precludes Jesus from being God, then it necessarily follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" precludes the Father from being Lord. Yet that would contradict what Paul writes in many passages, such as1 Tim. 6:15. It would also contradict numerous other passages in the NT, such as Luke 10:21.

Fifth, if "of whom are all things" speaks of the Father's absolute existence and his nature as God, then it necessarily follows that "by whom are all things" speaks of the Son's absolute existence and nature as God. We cannot say that in relation to the Father "all things" means absolutely everything that has come into existence but that it means something different in relation to the Son. And this is confirmed in John 1:1-3, Col 1:16-17, and Heb 1:2, 10-12.

So, simple, sound logic leads to the only conclusion that Jesus, or rather the Son, is also God in nature, being of the same substance as the Father. Yet, he clearly is distinct from the Father and is not a separate God.

 

[My Rock]

I guess we could say the only distinction is between God's omnipresence in the world and His fleshly body as the Son.

 

[Free]

I guess we could say the only distinction is between God's omnipresence in the world and His fleshly body as the Son.

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.

 

[My Rock]

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.

What I am trying to express is the idea that the only real distinction that can be made is between God's omnipresence—His ability to be present everywhere in the world—and His specific manifestation in the flesh as Jesus Christ, the Son. In other words, while God is omnipresent and fills all of creation with His Spirit, He also uniquely revealed Himself in a physical, tangible way through the incarnation, where He took on a human body and lived as the man Jesus. This is a distinction in how He chooses to manifest Himself. So, the omnipresent Spirit and the incarnate Son are different ways in which the one true God interacts with His creation. It might sound like an oxymoron or even shocking to say that God "fathered" His own body, but this reflects the Biblical belief that the same God who is the Father also became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, without dividing His singular divine identity.

 

[Free]

What I am trying to express is the idea that the only real distinction that can be made is between God's omnipresence—His ability to be present everywhere in the world—and His specific manifestation in the flesh as Jesus Christ, the Son. In other words, while God is omnipresent and fills all of creation with His Spirit, He also uniquely revealed Himself in a physical, tangible way through the incarnation, where He took on a human body and lived as the man Jesus. This is a distinction in how He chooses to manifest Himself. So, the omnipresent Spirit and the incarnate Son are different ways in which the one true God interacts with His creation. It might sound like an oxymoron or even shocking to say that God "fathered" His own body, but this reflects the Biblical belief that the same God who is the Father also became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, without dividing His singular divine identity.

That is what Modalism/Oneness theology teaches. The doctrine of the Trinity essentially states that there has never been a time when all three persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--didn't exist as the one God. All three are consubstantial, each being truly God, and so have always existed and always remained distinct from each other.

The Father has always been the Father--the first person of the Trinity--and the Son has always been the Son--the second person of the Trinity. It was not the Father that became flesh in the person of Jesus, it was the preincarnate Son, whom John also calls the Word.

 

[My Rock]

One of the key concerns with the Trinity doctrine is the question of why, if God desires to interact with humanity in a tangible way for the purpose of redemption and to purchase the Church with His own blood (Scripture doesn't say His Son's blood) Acts 20:28), He would choose to send a different person within the Godhead rather than coming to earth Himself. The doctrine of the Trinity posits that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons within one divine essence, each playing a unique role in the divine plan. According to this view, it was the Son who became incarnate and provided the sacrificial atonement necessary for redemption. However, this raises the question of why God would not directly assume human form rather than sending the Son to accomplish this task. This issue is addressed by understanding that God Himself, in His singular divine nature, became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. This view holds that God did not delegate the task of redemption to another person but fully engaged in the process of salvation by manifesting Himself in human form. The direct involvement of God in the incarnation underscores His personal commitment to redeem humanity, avoiding any perceived separation between God’s essence and His redemptive actions. This perspective emphasizes that the same God who is omnipresent and transcendent also actively participated in the redemption of the world as Jesus Christ, reflecting a unified and personal approach to salvation.

 

[Free]

One of the key concerns with the Trinity doctrine is the question of why, if God desires to interact with humanity in a tangible way for the purpose of redemption and to purchase the Church with His own blood (Scripture doesn't say His Son's blood) Acts 20:28), He would choose to send a different person within the Godhead rather than coming to earth Himself. The doctrine of the Trinity posits that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons within one divine essence, each playing a unique role in the divine plan. According to this view, it was the Son who became incarnate and provided the sacrificial atonement necessary for redemption. However, this raises the question of why God would not directly assume human form rather than sending the Son to accomplish this task.

To say that God "would choose to send a different person with the Godhead rather than coming to earth himself," is begging the question. This presumes that only the Father is God and God is the Father, but the doctrine of the Trinity, based on Scripture, posits that each person of the Trinity is truly God. The Son is God just as the Father is God. So, in that sense, God--the Son, the second person of the Trinity--did come to earth.

This issue is addressed by understanding that God Himself, in His singular divine nature, became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. This view holds that God did not delegate the task of redemption to another person but fully engaged in the process of salvation by manifesting Himself in human form. The direct involvement of God in the incarnation underscores His personal commitment to redeem humanity, avoiding any perceived separation between God’s essence and His redemptive actions. This perspective emphasizes that the same God who is omnipresent and transcendent also actively participated in the redemption of the world as Jesus Christ, reflecting a unified and personal approach to salvation.

The issue is that there is not one single verse to indicate that it was the Father who became flesh. The Father and the Son are always kept distinct. The Incarnation does show God's "personal commitment to redeem humanity," because the Father and the Son are of the same essence. The Trinity best makes sense of all of this, rather than the Father who either somehow becomes a distinct person from himself or ends up praying to himself, being an advocate on our behalf with himself, etc.

There is more that could be said, suffice it to say that Modalism/Oneness theology creates far more issues than it supposedly addresses.

 

[My Rock]

The Son is God just as the Father is God. So, in that sense, God--the Son, the second person of the Trinity--did come to earth.

We can use the Son of God when referring to Christ but not "God the Son" Because the Bible does not use the phrase “God the Son” even one time. It is not a correct term because the Son of God refers to the humanity of Jesus Christ. The Bible defines the Son of God as the child born of Mary, not as the eternal Spirit of God (Luke 1:35). “Son of God” may refer to the human nature or it may refer to God manifested in flesh—that is, deity in the human nature.“Son of God” never means the incorporeal Spirit alone, however. We can never use “Son” correctly apart from the humanity of Jesus Christ. The terms “Son of God,” “Son of man,” and “Son” are appropriate and biblical. However, the term “God the Son” is inappropriate because it equates the Son with deity alone, and therefore it is unscriptural.

The Son of God is not a distinct person in the Godhead but the physical expression of the one God. The Son is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:13-15) and “the express image of his [God’s] person” (Hebrews 1:2-3). Just as a signature stamp leaves an exact likeness on paper, or just as a seal leaves an exact impression when pressed in wax, so the Son of God is the exact expression of the Spirit of God in flesh. Humans could not see the invisible God, so God made an exact likeness of Himself in flesh, impressed His very nature in flesh, came Himself in flesh, so that humans could see and know Him.

Son of God” refers to the humanity of Jesus. Clearly the humanity of Jesus is not eternal but was born in Bethlehem. One can speak of eternal existence in past, present, and future only with respect to God. Since “Son of God” refers to humanity or to deity as manifest in humanity, the idea of an eternal Son is incomprehensible.

 

[My Rock]

The issue is that there is not one single verse to indicate that it was the Father who became flesh.

The Father is part of the Godhead that dwell in Christ Colossians 2:9 Unless there is another interpretation.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Free,

Who does John say Isaiah saw in "his glory and spoke of him"? Clearly, John is meaning that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus, or rather, the Son.

I have been very interested in Isaiah 6 over many years. My assessment is that Isaiah 6 gives a vision of Jesus sitting on the Temple Throne of David in the Age to Come, as such he is also the Son of God, and he represents the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and as such he bears the Name Yahweh.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Runningman]

he question of whether the biblical concept of God is strictly monotheistic or allows for a Triune nature is a significant theological debate that has persisted for centuries. On one hand, the Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4 clearly states, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one," which seems to affirm a strict monotheism. On the other hand, passages such as Matthew 28:19, where Jesus commands the disciples to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," have been interpreted by Trinitarians to suggest a Triune nature of God. How do we reconcile these seemingly divergent viewpoints? Does the New Testament reveal a complexity in the nature of God that the Old Testament does not explicitly address, or is the doctrine of the Trinity an extra biblical development?

A compound, multi-person, God isn't what motheism is nor did this concept of God exist in Judaism or the early Christian church at the time Jesus and the disciples were preaching about who God is. So this idea came later.

In Trinitarianism, the ones you also call "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" are actually not God, but rather God is in them. So actually, the God who is in them in the One God and that could theoretically be monotheism, but it would mean that any worship of the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" would have to be considered idolatry. Trinitarianism is the antithesis of Scripture. It's a very bad doctrine about who God is.

John 17:3 says the Father is the only true God.

 

[My Rock]

A compound, multi-person, God isn't what motheism is nor did this concept of God exist in Judaism or the early Christian church at the time Jesus and the disciples were preaching about who God is. So this idea came later.

In Trinitarianism, the ones you also call "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" are actually not God, but rather God is in them. So actually, the God who is in them in the One God and that could theoretically be monotheism, but it would mean that any worship of the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" would have to be considered idolatry. Trinitarianism is the antithesis of Scripture. It's a very bad doctrine about who God is.

John 17:3 says the Father is the only true God.

The development of the doctrine of the Trinity in the early centuries of Christianity coincided with a noticeable decline in the exercise of the Gifts of the Spirit among many church leaders and theologians. This decline was particularly evident after the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., where the formalization of Trinitarian doctrine, which came from the minds of men rather than the mind of the Spirit, began to take shape. Some historians and theologians have observed that as the Church became more institutionalized and as theological debates became more abstract, there was a corresponding shift away from the dynamic, experiential aspects of faith, including the Gifts of the Spirit. For example, in the writings of church fathers like Augustine, we see a growing emphasis on doctrinal correctness over the ongoing operation of spiritual gifts.

One notable historical quote comes from the fourth-century theologian John Chrysostom, who lamented that the spiritual gifts had largely ceased in his time: "The whole place is full of profound sadness at the fact that there is no one left who speaks with tongues." (Homilies on First Corinthians, Homily 29). This reflects a broader trend where the miraculous and prophetic gifts of the early Church, as described in the New Testament, became less common or were even dismissed by some as no longer necessary.

This decline highlights the importance of relying on the operation of the Holy Ghost to reveal truth rather than solely on human understanding. Proverbs 3:5-6 (KJV) reminds us, "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." The Gifts of the Spirit, such as prophecy, tongues, and discernment, are vital tools for the Church to receive divine guidance and to stay rooted in the living, active work of God. Without these gifts, the Church risks becoming more reliant on human reasoning and less attuned to the immediate leading of the Holy Spirit.

The decline in the exercise of these gifts among those who formulated the Trinity doctrine, which was a product of human reasoning rather than divine revelation, can be seen as a cautionary tale. It underscores the need for believers to continually seek the fullness of the Spirit’s work in their lives, allowing the Holy Ghost to guide them into all truth (John 16:13). Relying on our own understanding can lead to a dry, intellectualized faith that lacks the vibrant power of the Spirit. Therefore, it is crucial for the Church today to embrace and cultivate the Gifts of the Spirit, ensuring that our faith remains both doctrinally sound and spiritually alive.

 

[Runningman]

The development of the doctrine of the Trinity in the early centuries of Christianity coincided with a noticeable decline in the exercise of the Gifts of the Spirit among many church leaders and theologians. This decline was particularly evident after the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., where the formalization of Trinitarian doctrine, which came from the minds of men rather than the mind of the Spirit, began to take shape. Some historians and theologians have observed that as the Church became more institutionalized and as theological debates became more abstract, there was a corresponding shift away from the dynamic, experiential aspects of faith, including the Gifts of the Spirit. For example, in the writings of church fathers like Augustine, we see a growing emphasis on doctrinal correctness over the ongoing operation of spiritual gifts.

One notable historical quote comes from the fourth-century theologian John Chrysostom, who lamented that the spiritual gifts had largely ceased in his time: "The whole place is full of profound sadness at the fact that there is no one left who speaks with tongues." (Homilies on First Corinthians, Homily 29). This reflects a broader trend where the miraculous and prophetic gifts of the early Church, as described in the New Testament, became less common or were even dismissed by some as no longer necessary.

This decline highlights the importance of relying on the operation of the Holy Ghost to reveal truth rather than solely on human understanding. Proverbs 3:5-6 (KJV) reminds us, "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." The Gifts of the Spirit, such as prophecy, tongues, and discernment, are vital tools for the Church to receive divine guidance and to stay rooted in the living, active work of God. Without these gifts, the Church risks becoming more reliant on human reasoning and less attuned to the immediate leading of the Holy Spirit.

The decline in the exercise of these gifts among those who formulated the Trinity doctrine, which was a product of human reasoning rather than divine revelation, can be seen as a cautionary tale. It underscores the need for believers to continually seek the fullness of the Spirit’s work in their lives, allowing the Holy Ghost to guide them into all truth (John 16:13). Relying on our own understanding can lead to a dry, intellectualized faith that lacks the vibrant power of the Spirit. Therefore, it is crucial for the Church today to embrace and cultivate the Gifts of the Spirit, ensuring that our faith remains both doctrinally sound and spiritually alive.

That makes sense and that's what my experience was like too. I wasn't able to intellectualize using conventional logic and reason, let alone believe, Trinitarianism, all of those years ago, though I wanted to. Eventually I abandoned it and decided I wasn't coming back unless I had the experiences like what they did in the Bible.

I eventually came back to my old haunt of OSAS and Trinitarianism, but then after that I had a terrifying divine encounter with an angel who told me to repent and asked me to serve the Holy Father, the Son of God at His right hand, in the power of the holy Spirit. I agreed and prayed together. That's how I actually became a Christian. OSAS, perseverance of the saints, etc, are all false.

Spiritual gifts are real and they actually can be a burden to be honest. I am not sure about tongues though. Never experienced it myself, but I have heard others swear by it.

I believe Trinitarians don't get to experience this side of Christianity very often because they don't give glory and credit where it's due. They're busy worshipping three, but there is only one and even Jesus knew this and gave glory to the One who empowered him.

That's just my experience and some of my testimony. Most people hate it lol.

 

[My Rock]

That makes sense and that's what my experience was like too. I wasn't able to intellectualize using conventional logic and reason, let alone believe, Trinitarianism, all of those years ago, though I wanted to. Eventually I abandoned it and decided I wasn't coming back unless I had the experiences like what they did in the Bible.

I eventually came back to my old haunt of OSAS and Trinitarianism, but then after that I had a terrifying divine encounter with an angel who told me to repent and asked me to serve the Holy Father, the Son of God at His right hand, in the power of the holy Spirit. I agreed and prayed together. That's how I actually became a Christian. OSAS, perseverance of the saints, etc, are all false.

Spiritual gifts are real and they actually can be a burden to be honest. I am not sure about tongues though. Never experienced it myself, but I have heard others swear by it.

I believe Trinitarians don't get to experience this side of Christianity very often because they don't give glory and credit where it's due. They're busy worshipping three, but there is only one and even Jesus knew this and gave glory to the One who empowered him.

That's just my experience and some of my testimony. Most people hate it lol.

Great Testimony. Have you considered seeking in prayer for God to give you the gift of Tongues.