Is the Born Again Experience the same today, as on the Day of Pentecost?

[Alfred Persson]

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:36-47 NKJ)

I am a cessationist (until the Holy Spirit is poured out upon all flesh in the End Time Acts 2:17-21; Rev. 11:4 cf. Zech. 4:11-14).

I don't do signs and wonders, or cast out demons. I don't receive revelations that are "the word of God".

But I maintain my born again experience is exactly like that of the 120 disciples, and the 3,000 Jews saved on that day.

They all were "born again", changed on the inside so their perception of God and the things of God was radically different. God was now their Father, and His people "their people." Their Love for God, His Truth and His people became their central desire. In a word, they were born again. A "new creature" with new desires.

The alleged "second class" of believers who haven't received the fullness of the Holy Spirit, does not exist.

An excerpt from my site:

On the day of Pentecost two separate groups received the Baptism in the Spirit, numbering 120 (Ac. 1:15; 2:1-4) and 3,000 (Ac. 2:38-41).

The First Group (Ac. 1:15-22; 2:1-4) were followers of Jesus from the days of John the Baptist to His resurrection (Ac. 1:21-22). A sound from heaven like rushing wind filled the house, and tongues of fire sat upon each of their heads and they spoke in languages of Parthians, Medes, Elamites, Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, Libya, Cyrene, and Rome (Acts. 2:8-10).

The Holy Spirit filled (Ac. 2:4) their spirit (Rom. 8:5-16), God breathing into their souls the breath of lives (Gen. 2:7), they became “new creatures” (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15) risen in Christ (Rom. 6:3-4; Col. 2:12), born “from above” (John 3:7-8; 1 Pet. 1:3) .The “washing of regeneration and renewing” (Tit. 3:5) gave birth to their “inner man” (Eph. 3:16; Col. 3:10). They became partakers of divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4) passing from death into life (John 5:21, 24-26).

Only their soul was made alive, all of this was Spirit to spirit (Rom. 8:5-16) because our Holy God cannot abide with sin and touches no unclean thing (Rom. 7:18; 8:7-13). The flesh must wait for the resurrection yet future (1 Cor. 15:12, 51-55; Rev. 20:5).

Of these 120 unique followers of Christ only the Twelve Apostles did signs and wonders (Ac. 2:42-43).

When the Second Group received the Holy Spirit (Ac. 2:38-39) there was no sound from heaven like a rushing wind. Tongues of fire did not rest upon their heads. They did not speak foreign languages.

Precisely as the Holy Spirit filled the 120, so did He the 3,000 just as Peter promised (Ac. 2:38; Rom. 8:5-16). God breathed into their souls the breath of lives (Gen. 2:7), they became “new creatures” (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15) risen in Christ (Rom. 6:3-4; Col. 2:12), born “from above” (John 3:7-8; 1 Pet. 1:3) .The “washing of regeneration and renewing” (Tit. 3:5) gave birth to their “inner man” (Eph. 3:16; Col. 3:10). They became partakers of divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4) passing from death into life (John 5:21, 24-26).

Confirming the 3,000 saved that day did not manifest revelatory gifts is the fact these were so uncommon they were deemed a “sign from God” of something new (Acts 10:44-47; 15:7-8). God also employed this sign to confirm salvation is only by public confession Jesus is LORD (Acts 19:1-7; 4:12). That this was a special group of Jews who received the revelatory gifts is evident by it being specially noted these were “Twelve” in number (Acts 19:7), clearly implying they were part of this exclusive group of Jews who would establish the Church (1 Cor. 12:28). “Salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22)

The “outward physical evidence” the 3,000 were filled with the Holy Spirit was their changed heart and mind towards God and His Truth, and love for His people (Acts. 2:42-47 Compare 1 Pet. 1:22-23).

That the “outward physical evidence” was the SAME for BOTH the 120 and 3,000 organically follows from it being a function of “the One Body of Christ”, “the One Spirit who regenerates”, “the One Faith all belong to”, “the One Baptism common to every believer”. Every believer is baptized in the Holy Spirit of God whether they “feel” Him or not.

The “Baptism in the Spirit” or “New Birth” Has Continued without change since Pentecost | End Time News

The "Baptism in the Spirit" or "New Birth" is the same today as on the Day of Pentecost On the day of Pentecost two separate groups received the Baptism in the Spirit, numbering 120 (Ac. 1:15; 2:1-4) and 3,000 (Ac. 2:38-41). The First Group (Ac. 1:15-22; 2:1-4) were followers of Jesus from the...

endtimenews.net

 

[Alfred Persson]

A "second class" of Christian believers who haven't received the fullness of the Holy Spirit, does not exist.

Hear ye, the word of the LORD:

3 Let no foreigner who is bound to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people." And let no eunuch complain, "I am only a dry tree."
4 For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant--
5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will endure forever.
6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant--
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations." (Isa. 56:3-7 NIV)

 

[hawkman]

Of these 120 unique followers of Christ only the Twelve Apostles did signs and wonders (Ac. 2:42-43).

Stephen was not an Apostle and yet here is what we are told .

Acts 6:8
And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Alfred Persson , would you like to retract your statement ?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Stephen was not an Apostle and yet here is what we are told .

Acts 6:8
And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Alfred Persson , would you like to retract your statement ?

Why? I never denied signs and wonders were done by the unique group of Jews who walked with Christ during His earthly ministry:

17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. (Mk. 16:17-19 NKJ)

On the day of Pentecost, only the 12 apostles did the signs and wonders. The 3,000 didn't do signs, they were in awe of the signs the apostles did.

But present that day were a unique group of Jews, who were directly chosen by Christ to go out two by two, who also did signs and wonders.

But not on the Day of Pentecost.

These proved they really were Christ's disciples, by the signs and wonders God did through them, confirming their teaching:

20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mk. 16:20 NKJ)

No one today can be part of this group. They walked with Christ during His earthly ministry, and died. They had no replacements.

1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.
2 Then He said to them, "The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.
3 "Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves.
4 "Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road.
5 "But whatever house you enter, first say,`Peace to this house.'
6 "And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it; if not, it will return to you.
7 "And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house.
8 "Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.
9 "And heal the sick there, and say to them,`The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
10 "But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say,
11 `The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.'
12 "But I say to you that it will be more tolerable in that Day for Sodom than for that city.
...
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
22 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." (Lk. 10:1-22 NKJ)

 

[hawkman]

Why? I never denied signs and wonders were done by the unique group of Jews who walked with Christ during His earthly ministry:

But you deny the power of the Holy Spirit is the same today in Christians .

 

[Hopeful 2]

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:36-47 NKJ)

I am a cessationist (until the Holy Spirit is poured out upon all flesh in the End Time Acts 2:17-21; Rev. 11:4 cf. Zech. 4:11-14).

I don't do signs and wonders, or cast out demons. I don't receive revelations that are "the word of God".

But I maintain my born again experience is exactly like that of the 120 disciples, and the 3,000 Jews saved on that day.

They all were "born again", changed on the inside so their perception of God and the things of God was radically different. God was now their Father, and His people "their people." Their Love for God, His Truth and His people became their central desire. In a word, they were born again. A "new creature" with new desires.

The alleged "second class" of believers who haven't received the fullness of the Holy Spirit, does not exist.

An excerpt from my site:

On the day of Pentecost two separate groups received the Baptism in the Spirit, numbering 120 (Ac. 1:15; 2:1-4) and 3,000 (Ac. 2:38-41).

The First Group (Ac. 1:15-22; 2:1-4) were followers of Jesus from the days of John the Baptist to His resurrection (Ac. 1:21-22). A sound from heaven like rushing wind filled the house, and tongues of fire sat upon each of their heads and they spoke in languages of Parthians, Medes, Elamites, Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, Libya, Cyrene, and Rome (Acts. 2:8-10).

The Holy Spirit filled (Ac. 2:4) their spirit (Rom. 8:5-16), God breathing into their souls the breath of lives (Gen. 2:7), they became “new creatures” (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15) risen in Christ (Rom. 6:3-4; Col. 2:12), born “from above” (John 3:7-8; 1 Pet. 1:3) .The “washing of regeneration and renewing” (Tit. 3:5) gave birth to their “inner man” (Eph. 3:16; Col. 3:10). They became partakers of divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4) passing from death into life (John 5:21, 24-26).

Only their soul was made alive, all of this was Spirit to spirit (Rom. 8:5-16) because our Holy God cannot abide with sin and touches no unclean thing (Rom. 7:18; 8:7-13). The flesh must wait for the resurrection yet future (1 Cor. 15:12, 51-55; Rev. 20:5).

Of these 120 unique followers of Christ only the Twelve Apostles did signs and wonders (Ac. 2:42-43).

When the Second Group received the Holy Spirit (Ac. 2:38-39) there was no sound from heaven like a rushing wind. Tongues of fire did not rest upon their heads. They did not speak foreign languages.

Precisely as the Holy Spirit filled the 120, so did He the 3,000 just as Peter promised (Ac. 2:38; Rom. 8:5-16). God breathed into their souls the breath of lives (Gen. 2:7), they became “new creatures” (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15) risen in Christ (Rom. 6:3-4; Col. 2:12), born “from above” (John 3:7-8; 1 Pet. 1:3) .The “washing of regeneration and renewing” (Tit. 3:5) gave birth to their “inner man” (Eph. 3:16; Col. 3:10). They became partakers of divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4) passing from death into life (John 5:21, 24-26).

Confirming the 3,000 saved that day did not manifest revelatory gifts is the fact these were so uncommon they were deemed a “sign from God” of something new (Acts 10:44-47; 15:7-8). God also employed this sign to confirm salvation is only by public confession Jesus is LORD (Acts 19:1-7; 4:12). That this was a special group of Jews who received the revelatory gifts is evident by it being specially noted these were “Twelve” in number (Acts 19:7), clearly implying they were part of this exclusive group of Jews who would establish the Church (1 Cor. 12:28). “Salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22)

The “outward physical evidence” the 3,000 were filled with the Holy Spirit was their changed heart and mind towards God and His Truth, and love for His people (Acts. 2:42-47 Compare 1 Pet. 1:22-23).

That the “outward physical evidence” was the SAME for BOTH the 120 and 3,000 organically follows from it being a function of “the One Body of Christ”, “the One Spirit who regenerates”, “the One Faith all belong to”, “the One Baptism common to every believer”. Every believer is baptized in the Holy Spirit of God whether they “feel” Him or not.

The “Baptism in the Spirit” or “New Birth” Has Continued without change since Pentecost | End Time News

The "Baptism in the Spirit" or "New Birth" is the same today as on the Day of Pentecost On the day of Pentecost two separate groups received the Baptism in the Spirit, numbering 120 (Ac. 1:15; 2:1-4) and 3,000 (Ac. 2:38-41). The First Group (Ac. 1:15-22; 2:1-4) were followers of Jesus from the...

endtimenews.net

Yes, it is the same now as at the beginning.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Why? I never denied signs and wonders were done by the unique group of Jews who walked with Christ during His earthly ministry:

17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. (Mk. 16:17-19 NKJ)

On the day of Pentecost, only the 12 apostles did the signs and wonders. The 3,000 didn't do signs, they were in awe of the signs the apostles did.

But present that day were a unique group of Jews, who were directly chosen by Christ to go out two by two, who also did signs and wonders.

But not on the Day of Pentecost.

These proved they really were Christ's disciples, by the signs and wonders God did through them, confirming their teaching:

20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mk. 16:20 NKJ)

No one today can be part of this group. They walked with Christ during His earthly ministry, and died. They had no replacements.

1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.
2 Then He said to them, "The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.
3 "Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves.
4 "Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road.
5 "But whatever house you enter, first say,`Peace to this house.'
6 "And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it; if not, it will return to you.
7 "And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house.
8 "Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.
9 "And heal the sick there, and say to them,`The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
10 "But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say,
11 `The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.'
12 "But I say to you that it will be more tolerable in that Day for Sodom than for that city.
...
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
22 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." (Lk. 10:1-22 NKJ)

All those who walked with Jesus were not "IN Christ" like we can be since Jesus' resurrection.
We can be closer to Him than the apostles were !

 

[Alfred Persson]

But you deny the power of the Holy Spirit is the same today in Christians .

Do you know of signs and wonders like those the apostles did? I don't. Unlike the healings of the apostles, many today remain sick.

14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,
15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them.
16 Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed. (Acts 5:14-16 NKJ)

Healings today seem different. Peter healed the weak bone and muscle, so the lame could immediately walk.

NKJ Acts 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.
2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple;
3 who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms.
4 And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, "Look at us."
5 So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them.
6 Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."
7 And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them-- walking, leaping, and praising God.
9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God. (Acts 3:1-9 NKJ)

It should be easy for you to document this healing is happening today. Every smart phone can record the video.

Modern science has the tools to establish who really is lame or blind, and how a healer with a few words instantly healed him. It should be in a legal document accepted by the courts as true testimony of what happened.

Can you copy paste a text of that here?

That some (including pagan healers) claim to heal is without doubt. But are they doing what the Holy Spirit did in the NT? I don't see any proof of that. Provide some, and I will repent and believe its happening today.

 

[Alfred Persson]

All those who walked with Jesus were not "IN Christ" like we can be since Jesus' resurrection.
We can be closer to Him than the apostles were !

Don't see your point. The question was "did other Jews (directly chosen by Christ during His earthly ministry) do signs and wonders. The answer is "Yes", the Seventy He sent out and everyone referred to in the "long ending" in Mark's gospel. Only those who did these signs and wonders manifested they "believed in Christ" and therefore had God's approval.

But on the Day of Pentecost, the twelve apostles did signs and wonders that left everyone watching "in fear":

Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. (Acts 2:43 NKJ)

The signs and wonders they did were unique, causing "fear upon every soul" that they word they spoke truly was "the Word of God."

 

[Hopeful 2]

Don't see your point.

I was just backing up your post #4.
Men can still do miraculous things, if they are "in Christ".

The question was "did other Jews (directly chosen by Christ during His earthly ministry) do signs and wonders. The answer is "Yes", the Seventy He sent out and everyone referred to in the "long ending" in Mark's gospel. Only those who did these signs and wonders manifested they "believed in Christ" and therefore had God's approval.
But on the Day of Pentecost, the twelve apostles did signs and wonders that left everyone watching "in fear":
Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. (Acts 2:43 NKJ)

I agree.

The signs and wonders they did were unique, causing "fear upon every soul" that they word they spoke truly was "the Word of God."

OK.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I am a cessationist (until the Holy Spirit is poured out upon all flesh in the End Time Acts 2:17-21; Rev. 11:4 cf. Zech. 4:11-14).

I don't do signs and wonders, or cast out demons. I don't receive revelations that are "the word of God".

If God has no new signs and wonders, how are He and his words still relevant today? Why does any of these bible passages you quote matter in 21st century of artificial intelligence? In your personal life and mine? You know, denying the power of God is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, and that's the one and only unforgivable sin. The word of God couldn't have been living and active if it had "ceased" with no signs and wonders to fulfill them.

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (ESV, Heb. 4:12)

 

[Who Me]

"Is the Born Again Experience the same today, as on the Day of Pentecost?"

No.

Not all Christians speak in togues, yet they are as much a Christian as those who do.

No Christians to my knowledge can substantiate ' flames of fire' on their head when saved.

God in his mercy saves people, heroes not follow any man devised formula, but does it his way in his ti e, graciously using our efforts.

 

[hawkman]

Do you know of signs and wonders like those the apostles did?

I have seen signs and wonders in my own life .

I don't.

I believe you .

 

[Alfred Persson]

If God has no new signs and wonders, how are He and his words still relevant today? Why does any of these bible passages you quote matter in 21st century of artificial intelligence? In your personal life and mine? You know, denying the power of God is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, and that's the one and only unforgivable sin. The word of God couldn't have been living and active if it had "ceased" with no signs and wonders to fulfill them.

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (ESV, Heb. 4:12)

Didn't say God ran out of signs and wonders. And I qualified my cessationism to a specific time in the "last days", when God's two witnesses come the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh, and the 144,000 will appear doing signs and wonders:

"I am a cessationist (until the Holy Spirit is poured out upon all flesh in the End Time Acts 2:17-21; Rev. 11:4 cf. Zech. 4:11-14)."

The Bible always matters. There was a period of about 400 years from the last OT prophet, and the advent of Christ. During that time there weren't any supernatural signs from God, as far as we know. But scripture "mattered", its authority over the people undiminished.

I do not deny the power of God. I want to believe in continualism, but cannot. The signs and wonders the 12 apostles did have not continued after they went to be with the LORD.

Everyone has smartphones and can take video of "apostle like" miracles when they happen. It should be easy to get scientists to witnesses the miracles and verify them legally. To my knowledge, that hasn't happened yet.

People claim they have seen supernatural things in their church. I am aware something is happening in them. But they seem different than what I see in the NT. Until I see the "NT kind of miracles" appear, I will remain a cessationist.

 

[JLB]

But I maintain my born again experience is exactly like that of the 120 disciples, and the 3,000 Jews saved on that day.

So you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit and speak with other tongues?


This is what occurred that day.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5

• for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now

And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4




JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Didn't say God ran out of signs and wonders. And I qualified my cessationism to a specific time in the "last days", when God's two witnesses come the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh, and the 144,000 will appear doing signs and wonders:

"I am a cessationist (until the Holy Spirit is poured out upon all flesh in the End Time Acts 2:17-21; Rev. 11:4 cf. Zech. 4:11-14)."

The Bible always matters. There was a period of about 400 years from the last OT prophet, and the advent of Christ. During that time there weren't any supernatural signs from God, as far as we know. But scripture "mattered", its authority over the people undiminished.

I do not deny the power of God. I want to believe in continualism, but cannot. The signs and wonders the 12 apostles did have not continued after they went to be with the LORD.

Everyone has smartphones and can take video of "apostle like" miracles when they happen. It should be easy to get scientists to witnesses the miracles and verify them legally. To my knowledge, that hasn't happened yet.

People claim they have seen supernatural things in their church. I am aware something is happening in them. But they seem different than what I see in the NT. Until I see the "NT kind of miracles" appear, I will remain a cessationist.

Where in the bible are the 144,000 thousand credited with signs and wonders ?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Where in the bible are the 144,000 thousand credited with signs and wonders ?

Its implied by the division of 12,000 from each tribe, the "army of the LORD". They appear in the end time, when Peter (Joel) said the Holy Spirit would be poured out on ALL flesh, which includes the 144,000.

Moreover, its consistent with Christ sending the Seventy out to evangelize, they did signs and wonders as did the apostles and to a lesser degree the others in the upper room during Pentecost: Jews personally sent out by Jesus do signs and wonders:

NKJ Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.
...
9 "And heal the sick there, and say to them,`The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
...
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. (Lk. 10:1-21 NKJ)

15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mk. 16:15-1:1 NKJ)

And there is the principle of "balance" manifest throughout the scriptures. Evil is counterbalanced by Good.

When God permits the devil to act, He also provides a way out for His people.

As God will stop restraining the "mystery of lawlessness" in the end time it follows He will unleash the "Mystery of Godliness" (The Holy Spirit) also to convert and sanctify the end time generation:

Note this antithesis here, the unclean Spirit versus the Holy Spirit:

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
(2 Thess. 2:7-15 NKJ)

 

[LeviR]

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:36-47 NKJ)

I am a cessationist (until the Holy Spirit is poured out upon all flesh in the End Time Acts 2:17-21; Rev. 11:4 cf. Zech. 4:11-14).

I don't do signs and wonders, or cast out demons. I don't receive revelations that are "the word of God".

But I maintain my born again experience is exactly like that of the 120 disciples, and the 3,000 Jews saved on that day.

They all were "born again", changed on the inside so their perception of God and the things of God was radically different. God was now their Father, and His people "their people." Their Love for God, His Truth and His people became their central desire. In a word, they were born again. A "new creature" with new desires.

The alleged "second class" of believers who haven't received the fullness of the Holy Spirit, does not exist.

An excerpt from my site:

On the day of Pentecost two separate groups received the Baptism in the Spirit, numbering 120 (Ac. 1:15; 2:1-4) and 3,000 (Ac. 2:38-41).

The First Group (Ac. 1:15-22; 2:1-4) were followers of Jesus from the days of John the Baptist to His resurrection (Ac. 1:21-22). A sound from heaven like rushing wind filled the house, and tongues of fire sat upon each of their heads and they spoke in languages of Parthians, Medes, Elamites, Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, Libya, Cyrene, and Rome (Acts. 2:8-10).

The Holy Spirit filled (Ac. 2:4) their spirit (Rom. 8:5-16), God breathing into their souls the breath of lives (Gen. 2:7), they became “new creatures” (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15) risen in Christ (Rom. 6:3-4; Col. 2:12), born “from above” (John 3:7-8; 1 Pet. 1:3) .The “washing of regeneration and renewing” (Tit. 3:5) gave birth to their “inner man” (Eph. 3:16; Col. 3:10). They became partakers of divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4) passing from death into life (John 5:21, 24-26).

Only their soul was made alive, all of this was Spirit to spirit (Rom. 8:5-16) because our Holy God cannot abide with sin and touches no unclean thing (Rom. 7:18; 8:7-13). The flesh must wait for the resurrection yet future (1 Cor. 15:12, 51-55; Rev. 20:5).

Of these 120 unique followers of Christ only the Twelve Apostles did signs and wonders (Ac. 2:42-43).

When the Second Group received the Holy Spirit (Ac. 2:38-39) there was no sound from heaven like a rushing wind. Tongues of fire did not rest upon their heads. They did not speak foreign languages.

Precisely as the Holy Spirit filled the 120, so did He the 3,000 just as Peter promised (Ac. 2:38; Rom. 8:5-16). God breathed into their souls the breath of lives (Gen. 2:7), they became “new creatures” (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15) risen in Christ (Rom. 6:3-4; Col. 2:12), born “from above” (John 3:7-8; 1 Pet. 1:3) .The “washing of regeneration and renewing” (Tit. 3:5) gave birth to their “inner man” (Eph. 3:16; Col. 3:10). They became partakers of divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4) passing from death into life (John 5:21, 24-26).

Confirming the 3,000 saved that day did not manifest revelatory gifts is the fact these were so uncommon they were deemed a “sign from God” of something new (Acts 10:44-47; 15:7-8). God also employed this sign to confirm salvation is only by public confession Jesus is LORD (Acts 19:1-7; 4:12). That this was a special group of Jews who received the revelatory gifts is evident by it being specially noted these were “Twelve” in number (Acts 19:7), clearly implying they were part of this exclusive group of Jews who would establish the Church (1 Cor. 12:28). “Salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22)

The “outward physical evidence” the 3,000 were filled with the Holy Spirit was their changed heart and mind towards God and His Truth, and love for His people (Acts. 2:42-47 Compare 1 Pet. 1:22-23).

That the “outward physical evidence” was the SAME for BOTH the 120 and 3,000 organically follows from it being a function of “the One Body of Christ”, “the One Spirit who regenerates”, “the One Faith all belong to”, “the One Baptism common to every believer”. Every believer is baptized in the Holy Spirit of God whether they “feel” Him or not.

The “Baptism in the Spirit” or “New Birth” Has Continued without change since Pentecost | End Time News

The "Baptism in the Spirit" or "New Birth" is the same today as on the Day of Pentecost On the day of Pentecost two separate groups received the Baptism in the Spirit, numbering 120 (Ac. 1:15; 2:1-4) and 3,000 (Ac. 2:38-41). The First Group (Ac. 1:15-22; 2:1-4) were followers of Jesus from the...

endtimenews.net

One who believes the word and is baptized is in a state of being born again. If he remains faithful to it, he will in actuality be born again from the grave.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit and speak with other tongues?


This is what occurred that day.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5

• for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now

And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4




JLB

I received more grace when I was born again, I experienced the process of regeneration...of being born again. The Holy Spirit rests upon me 24/7, like warm oil immersing the face of my inner man.

But that isn't common. Most Christians experience the same change in perception I do, where God becomes our Abba, His truth our truth, and we love God's people.

But I don't speak in tongues or prophesy. Scripture is where I get my truth. The Holy Spirit gently guides me to be diligent, to search out the text in its context and see the details many ignore.

Towards this end He has taught be there is wisdom in a multitude of counselors, comparing commentary with commentary often is very helpful with "difficult" texts. It is analogous to planning, to "see the unexpected":


Where there is no counsel, the people fall; But in the multitude of counselors there is safety. (Prov. 11:14 NKJ)

Without counsel, plans go awry, But in the multitude of counselors they are established. (Prov. 15:22 NKJ)

God has blessed the church with many insightful teachers of scripture.

But like any vessel of clay, I can make mistakes and will always repent if I believe something wrong according to the scripture.

On my site I stated this:

God the Holy Spirit fell upon me like a warm wind, filling my soul regenerating it. The washing of regeneration (Tit. 3:5) renewed my spirit (Rom. 8:16), not my flesh body or brain (Rom. 7:18). My soul, the “ghost operating the machine” became a partaker of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). God breathed into my soul the “breath of lives” and the filling gave rise to a “new creature” (Gen. 2:7; 2 Cor. 5:17), risen from the dead in Christ Jesus my LORD (Rom. 6:4). Over forty years ago this happened, and never has the Spirit left or forsaken me. God is more real to me than anyone or anything existing.

So why reveal my conversion experience? As a Cessationist I can’t claim special revelation. I certainly am not a prophet. I study scripture to show myself approved (2 Tim. 2:15). I believe Scripture alone 100% true, is the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice.

Normally the regeneration experience revealed in scripture is “spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14-15; 1 John 2:29; 3:7) because it is “beyond the physical senses” in the realm of the “Holy Spirit to the human spirit”. So why did God grace “I experientially know” Scripture is speaking of actual events when it reveals the new birth? I believe God wanted me to testify, without any doubt “scripture is true”, that the regeneration by the Holy Spirit is an event that is real in everyone who calls upon the name of the LORD. It is the SAME for EVERY born again believer whether they “felt something supernatural” or not.

About Me | End Time News

CHAP. XI.16—CONCERNING TEACHERS, APOSTLES, AND PROPHETS. Whosoever, therefore, cometh and teacheth you all these things that have been said before, receive him…But he shall not remain except one day; but if there be need, also the next; but if he remain three days, he is a false prophet. 6 And...

endtimenews.net

Being born again is the evidence someone has been baptized in the Spirit. Not tongues or prophecy or working miracles. The miracle of the New Birth is the same for every true believer in Christ.

 

[LeviR]

Truth is sharp and quick. It strikes right to the heart.
Never mind the long winded nonsense.