Bible Study Is the Charismatic Movement Dangerous and Heretical?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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The problem here, Elected, is that you have already come to the determination that there ARE no real prophets today, which means any evidence that might be presented to the contrary will automatically be dismissed as either fraudulent or demonic. And that means there is no real discussion here. Everything that follows will be defamation coming from a completely closed mind.
Why would we wish to have such a conversation? The answer is we don't. Some may participate with you in it, but people like myself are just going to forego wasting any time on it.
Closed mind?
I have lived among the Pentecostals/charismatics for many years.
They all have told me I have a closed mind and little faith.
Of course none of them ever proved to be an apostle or prophet out the hundreds I have interacted with.
It really is not about conversation.
Its about backing up the claim.
As I said earlier, if there are legitimate apostles and prophets today, I want to see it and I will believe they exist today.
I have known some awesome Pentecostal/charismatics in my time.
I just never understood why they let emotions and feelings lead them to believe it is Holy Spirit.
Always was a "look at me" thing, and always focused on "the enemy".
I understand your thoughts and concerns.
No worries.
There are many things one can study to ascertain what the signs of an apostle are.
One of the strongest is found in Acts Chapter 8.
However, if a person has made up their mind about apostles today, then reading scripture that has it's context in the first century seems to be irrelevant.
My questions remain:
- Can anyone provide scripture that says that there are no more Apostles or Prophets today?
- Why would someone believe that the Ephesians 4:11 statement has ceased for Apostles and Prophets, but not for Pastor's, Teacher's and Evangelist's?
- Can anyone provide scripture that says the baptism with the Holy Spirit was temporary and only for first century Christian's.
JLB
That isn't what I asked. I clearly asked: Does Scripture tell us what was required to be an Apostle? And, if so, can those requirements be fulfilled now?
Your own words betray you, LoL. But it's no big deal. I understand where you are coming from. Just that...
Bah, never mind.
Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him
I do not understand where you are coming from.
How do my words betray me?
Can you provide proof of a real prophet or apostle?
Please share a link.
Perhaps it is "spiritually" over my head.
The Lord did choose the foolish and base things of the earth.
I understand that Pentecostal/charismatics do not like to be challenged on these issues, at least the ones I have met and known in person.
Grace and peace to you.
I'm wondering what definition is being used for PROPHET.
Doesn't this mean one that proclaims the word of God?
This iis what it meant in the OT besides also meaning that a person could foresee the future.
Both of the above are done today.
As to Apostle....the Apostles passed on their apostleship....
Through Apostolic succession which is found the the CC.
Every Bishop receives from other Bishops before him the laying on of hands and so the Aposotilicity conferred by Jesus on His Apostles is passed from one generation to the next.
In this sense Apostles and Prophets still exist today....
Priests and Pastors are in hospitals healing the sick,
maybe physically, maybe emotionally, maybe psychologically...
all is involved in serious sickness.
Curing disease....
Do you not believe in miracles?
They have been certified to be true by a denomination that investigates very carefully before declaring a miracle.
The Catholic Church.
No bogus miracles allowed...
Prophecy....
A definition would be good at this point since I believe we may not agree on one.
Prophet/prophecy: To know the future.
To proclaim the Word of God.
Here is the answer I gave to your question, from post 105.
There are many things one can study to ascertain what the signs of an apostle are.
One of the strongest is found in Acts Chapter 8.
However, what I see as signs of an apostle and what someone sees as signs of an apostle may be different, especially if that person has made up their mind that they don't believe there are apostles today.
Do you believe Acts 8 is scripture? Some may not.
Here let me post some verses from Acts 8.
Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17
Even though Phillip demonstrated the power of the Holy Spirit through signs and wonders, casting out devils and healings... the Apostles had to come down from Jerusalem to lay hands on the people, as they had only been baptized in water, in Jesus name.
Administering the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a sign of an apostle.
However, some signs of an apostle do indeed include signs, wonders and healings, these signs are not necessarily limited to apostles.
I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. For what is it in which you were inferior to other churches, except that I myself was not burdensome to you? Forgive me this wrong! 2 Corinthians 12:11-13
Paul, demonstrated these signs, with all perseverance, in other words, regularly amongst the churches he planted.
Paul also administered the Baptism with the Holy Spirit as well. See Acts 19
JLB
You gave an answer to a question I’m not asking, and then gave it again. I have asked nothing about the signs of an Apostle. The NT gives specific criteria for being able to be an Apostle.
I gave you scripture in response to your question.
I'm glad we agree that scripture gives us criteria for being an apostle.
As Acts 8 points out, it took an apostle to lay hands on people who have already been saved, and baptized in water to receive the Holy Spirit; the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Many today are receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit from the Lord through apostles.
JLB
You gave Scripture that has no bearing on my question. You're somehow confusing signs that the Apostles did--their acts--with criteria for determining who was an Apostle in the first place, despite the difference being pretty clear. If you don't know, just ask, and I'll provide the relevant passages.
The criteria I gave was relevant in the first century, and it's relevant today.
If you don't believe that Prophets and Apostles and the Baptism with the Spirit are for today, then just provide a scripture that says so.
JLB
The bible calls them signs, not criteria.
I gave the scriptures that pertain to this discussion, and you don't seem see.
I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. For what is it in which you were inferior to other churches, except that I myself was not burdensome to you? Forgive me this wrong! 2 Corinthians 12:11-13
Do you see these signs of an apostle today?
I'm showing you how Apostles and prophets are still functioning today.
Where is the confusion in my post?
Will be happy to clarify.
I certainly have already, from the scriptures. You have chosen to reject what the scripture so plainly says.
Criteria is your word. The scripture plainly says that "signs of an apostle" Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
These signs as well as the baptism with the Holy Spirit continue today, just as there are Pastors, Teachers and Evangelists.
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, Ephesians 4:11-14
Jesus Christ is the Apostle and High Priest.
Jesus Christ is The Prophet.
He dwells in His people and continues to manifest these giftings through His people whom He has called and chosen for each specific ministry.
JLB