Bible Study Is the Charismatic Movement Dangerous and Heretical?

[daninthelionsden]

UPC folks don’t see anyone outside of the United Pentecostal Church as being Christians much less “true Pentecostals”.


Labeling every single person that goes to a certain Church as a false Christian because that church has a certain reputation is not something Jesus would teach us to do.


Personally, I don’t care for the teachings that come out of Bethel, nor do I believe everything Hillsong teaches is biblical.


However, I won’t label everyone in those churches as being false Christians with false tongues, because I don’t know what each and every person there believes or practices.


I do know some of the things that John MacArthur teaches because I have listened to some of his sermons.



That doesn’t mean I believe everyone in his Church has blasphemed the Holy Spirit or that they believe the false doctrine of Calvinism;
ie OSAS.





JLB

Amen. There are true Christians scattered everywhere.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Amen

If a person does ask God for the Spirit, will he receive “false tongues” from the devil?

For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Luke 11:10-13

• Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?

Jesus teaches us we can trust Him, that if we ask Him for the Holy Spirit, we are not going to get a demon spirit or something evil instead.

• how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

This comes back to my initial question that asks... how do you know if each and every person who asked for the Holy Spirit, received “false tongues”?
JLB

I firmly believe on the basis of the Scriptures you have quoted, that God is faithful and won't let anyone who comes to Him in sincerity, trusting in the Scripture, to receive a counterfeit.

Cessationism has muddied the waters, and allowed Satan to introduce a spirit of fear about receiving the gifts of the Spirit. In actual fact, there are more sleeping through a cessationist church sermon than anyone receiving fake tongues through approaching seeking the gift in the wrong way.

Also having one's faith founded security in God's Word is having the shield of faith that prevents the fiery darts of the enemy penetrating the Christian's armour. This means that the fiery darts of satanic deception cannot get past the shield of faith when a genuinely converted believer is seeking the baptism with the Spirit and the gift of tongues and is trusting in God's Word in the way he is seeking it.

Of course we have the lunatic fringe in the Charismatic movement who have also muddied the waters. Satan is using cessationism to fire the darts of fear, and he is using the lunacy of some to discredit the Charismatic movement and the gift of tongues.

Cessationists are more prone to meaningless babble than the Charismatics they accuse. More sense comes out of the backside of a horse than what comes out of the mouths of cessationists when they falsely accuse Charismatics of not being truly filled with the Spirit.

So, a believer who has been rightly instructed from the Word concerning the gift of tongues, and the steps taken to receive it, are protected from deception by their faith in God's Word, and the faithfulness of God to keep His promises.

 

[PaulChristensen]

UPC folks don’t see anyone outside of the United Pentecostal Church as being Christians much less “true Pentecostals”.


Labeling every single person that goes to a certain Church as a false Christian because that church has a certain reputation is not something Jesus would teach us to do.


Personally, I don’t care for the teachings that come out of Bethel, nor do I believe everything Hillsong teaches is biblical.


However, I won’t label everyone in those churches as being false Christians with false tongues, because I don’t know what each and every person there believes or practices.


I do know some of the things that John MacArthur teaches because I have listened to some of his sermons.



That doesn’t mean I believe everyone in his Church has blasphemed the Holy Spirit or that they believe the false doctrine of Calvinism;
ie OSAS.





JLB

It is interesting that Paul, in spite of the serious issues that existed in the Corinthian church, did not lambast the whole church because of the issues, but supported it because of the godly people in it.

Perhaps I am being a bit harsh about Bethel and Hillsong, because there would be many in those churches who love the Lord and sincerely seek to do His will. I have been reading Michael Brown's "Authentic Fire" and it is changing my attitudes and showing me that the curse of cessationism has muddied the waters in some aspects of my thinking. He says that no church or ministry is perfect, and to lambast a ministry or church for the issues in it, could alienate many godly people, and prevent many from receiving Christ through the ministry of those churches.

There is nothing wrong with showing up the issues, and even naming false teachers to warn good people, Paul did that on many occasions, but there were occasions where he dealt with issues but didn't name the people concerned.

It is very instructive and refreshing for me to read Dr. Brown's work to see the truth behind the Brownsville revival and the dynamic effect it has had on people and groups right around the world. Concerning the barking of dogs, he says that in all the time he was in leadership of that church, he never saw any of it, and clearly says that barking is of the devil. It sounds as if the report of barking in the services was a cessationist lie.

In every revival, the established church has always questioned and resisted it. Jesus says that we can't put new wine into old wineskins, and when the established churches become old and stale, they are not able to cope with new moves of the Spirit that bring refreshing and new life into the body of Christ.

So, reading "Authentic Fire" shows that John MacArthur and those associated with him have a serious blind spot concerning the Charismatic movement. It is hard to believe that he is deliberately ignoring the clear, verified facts about the Charismatic movement and knows that what he is saying about it is a deliberate lie. I guess that to be benevolent toward him, we could say that because of the conditioning against the Charismatic movement that has been drilled into him over many years he just can't see any different, might be a better way of describing his deluded attitude.

 

[hawkman]

I went to a church where there was rolling in the aisles and drooling at the mouth.
And that was the mild stuff.
I thought they were crazy and that I would never go there.
But I did go there and they laid hands on me and I started speaking in tongues.
I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and my spiritual life took off from there.
Yes, I become am active member for 13 years until I moved away.
Did I ever roll in the aisles and drool from the mouth?
No, but I've done a lot of other things through the years.

I may need to compare notes with you on the " other things" . Are the " other things" something even other Christians might not believe if you told them what the " other things " were ?

 

[jasonc]

I,don't blanket that .my pastor isn't charismatic but we have a communion with one that is .I,asked about that when I saw it was a Spanish Pentecostal service the worship leader ,leads a veterans group .

the sword swings both ways .I know I have been on both sides .

 

[PaulChristensen]

I,don't blanket that .my pastor isn't charismatic but we have a communion with one that is .I,asked about that when I saw it was a Spanish Pentecostal service the worship leader ,leads a veterans group .

the sword swings both ways .I know I have been on both sides .

Martin Luther hated Jews so much that he treated them as dogs and said that their synagogues should be burned and that Jews should be killed without mercy. The Nazis followed his instructions to the letter. Does that mean that the Lutheran church is heretical and dangerous?

What about Calvin? He was intolerant and dictatorial. He had children who struck their parents killed and imprisoned. The Puritans in New England burned innocent women at the stake after accusing them of being witches. Do we say that the Reformed and Presbyterian churches are heretical and dangerous?

Those who condemn the whole Charismatic movement because of the faults of some, need to see that there are big fingers pointed at the founders of their own religious movements. It is sheer hypocrisy to lambast one religious movement for its faults, and not others which also have serious faults and issues.

Also, 70% of Charismatics reject the Prosperity and Health teaching, something that John MacArthur doesn't want us to know. Also, he has lambasted Pentecostals who have taught that knowing Jesus will ensure that Africans' needs will be met, but what he doesn't tell us, that just having a bicycle to get from one place to another is absolutely prosperity for them, and many earn just $3 per day, and electricity in the home is a luxury. It's all very well for a mega-church is South California like the Grace Church where the members are affluent, own good homes, drive modern motor cars and are prosperous in themselves, to criticize preachers to Africans and Asians where prosperity is a totally different thing. Just having a tin shack with a roof that doesn't leak makes an African rich and prosperous, and the preaching of prosperity for them is that God will provide food to eat every day, clothes to wear, and a roof over their heads, and maybe a bicycle to enable the pastor to preach in the churches in his area. So the Strange Fire group that says that prosperity preaching in Africa and Asia has been heretical and dangerous and has spoiled the Christian faith of many people, is just a load of nonsense. Most African Pentecostal pastors totally reject the Kenneth Copeland type prosperity and health doctrine, and John MacArthur and his confederates are merely speculating from their personal prejudice against Charismatics.

 

[andy pandy]

That's what Jesus said. However, if MacArthur is commenting on the likes of Bethel, Hillsong, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, or Joel Osteen, then he could be correct in his identification of them, because it has been made clear that those pseudo-charismatics are not of the Holy Spirit but of a different spirit.

Because in other areas MacArthur does give sound Gospel oriented teaching, means that he can't be blaspheming the Holy Spirit, because some who is blaspheming the Holy Spirit cannot give the teaching that he does. Remember what Jesus said to the disciples who saw others preaching the good news who were not of their particular group. He said not to stop them because whoever was not against Him is for Him.

So, John MacArthur may not agree with our party doctrines, but he is for Christ, and therefore not against Him, so we are in no position to discredit him merely because he sees, in the limited experience of the Charismatic that he has, that it comes from a spirit that is not of God. I think he, like all of us, is looking through the wrong end of the telescope, and quite possibly, he is looking through the wrong end of his telescope at the Charismatic movement.

He does make a distinction between what he calls "Reformed Charismatics" and does not put them in the same category as the "charismania" ones. His beef with them is that they don't put more effort into speaking out against the lunatic ones. But he is wrong about that, because some of prominent Pentecostals such as Michael Brown, the late David Wilkerson, John Wimber, Jack Hayford, and Derek Prince, gave clear teaching that the "charismania" was not of the right spirit and that believers should keep well clear of it.

If you are going to say that Calvinists are not of God, you would have to put all the Reformers, Puritans, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon and the many others who won thousands to Christ in their time. If it wasn't for John Calvin and his systematic theology, we would not have the churches we have today with the freedom of religion. Remember, it was Calvinist puritans who first settled North America and were responsible for the foundation of the nation.

All my reading of Calvinist puritan literature has shown me that it is totally Christ centred and teaches faith in the finished work of Christ. But then, John Wesley and the Methodist Holiness teachers were Arminian, but also Christ-centred. They preached faith in the finished work of Christ also. So they were for Christ and not against Him. Therefore Jesus teaches us that just because people don't subscribe to our party and its particular doctrines, if they are for Him and not again Him, we should not forbid them, even by accusing them of being against Christ because they are Calvinist, or Arminian, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Amish, or Mennonite or whatever other brand of the Christian faith they are.

Being on a forum like this one shows up the fact that the body of Christ is an example of licorice allsorts. Most people will eat them but not all of them as they have their favourites.

I try to avoid comparing then and now because the environment then is quite different to the now. Luther was quite revolutionary in his day, but he did not go against every aspect of catholicism and he stayed a priest in that church until he was thrown out.

The fact is we don not have much to crow about because as has been pointed out the catholic priest has morphed into the evangelical pastor and the catholic mass have morphed into the protestant communion. So if your church has a pastor and communion, you are promoting catholicism.

The New Testament church did not have pastors running the church nor did they have communion. The had a plurality of Elders and communal meals so that the poor had a decent meal every day.

 

[andy pandy]

Martin Luther hated Jews so much that he treated them as dogs and said that their synagogues should be burned and that Jews should be killed without mercy. The Nazis followed his instructions to the letter. Does that mean that the Lutheran church is heretical and dangerous?

What about Calvin? He was intolerant and dictatorial. He had children who struck their parents killed and imprisoned. The Puritans in New England burned innocent women at the stake after accusing them of being witches. Do we say that the Reformed and Presbyterian churches are heretical and dangerous?

Those who condemn the whole Charismatic movement because of the faults of some, need to see that there are big fingers pointed at the founders of their own religious movements. It is sheer hypocrisy to lambast one religious movement for its faults, and not others which also have serious faults and issues.

Also, 70% of Charismatics reject the Prosperity and Health teaching, something that John MacArthur doesn't want us to know. Also, he has lambasted Pentecostals who have taught that knowing Jesus will ensure that Africans' needs will be met, but what he doesn't tell us, that just having a bicycle to get from one place to another is absolutely prosperity for them, and many earn just $3 per day, and electricity in the home is a luxury. It's all very well for a mega-church is South California like the Grace Church where the members are affluent, own good homes, drive modern motor cars and are prosperous in themselves, to criticize preachers to Africans and Asians where prosperity is a totally different thing. Just having a tin shack with a roof that doesn't leak makes an African rich and prosperous, and the preaching of prosperity for them is that God will provide food to eat every day, clothes to wear, and a roof over their heads, and maybe a bicycle to enable the pastor to preach in the churches in his area. So the Strange Fire group that says that prosperity preaching in Africa and Asia has been heretical and dangerous and has spoiled the Christian faith of many people, is just a load of nonsense. Most African Pentecostal pastors totally reject the Kenneth Copeland type prosperity and health doctrine, and John MacArthur and his confederates are merely speculating from their personal prejudice against Charismatics.

Good stuff Paul. I did a search about prosperity in the New Testament Church and the overwhelming view is that it was having enough food to eat and some left over for the next day. If you experienced that you were prosperous. People were not consumed with getting rid of their donkey in exchange for a horse.

 

[Blade]

"Charismatic" to me not reading anything about it just say off the top of my head and been around it for years. The holy Spirit, gifts, praying the word, believing the Bible is Gods word, faith.. blah blah blah. I try not to pick some with in Charismatic and then lump them all in to thay. John MacArthur.. there are things I disagree on. I know the words he uses to describe Charismatics yet its not me he's really talking about. It is Christ, the holy Spirit. With all he knows he's very wise yet with spiritual things I believe he's still a baby in Christ. I don't know the man I have seen him preach, read things his written yet that does not mean I know the man. We see the flesh and judge knowing we never seen his heart.. praise GOD our Father looks at that.

So is "Charismatic" dangerous and heretical? It has its faults and errors as does any other group out there. Whats really interesting is when you look through out history and all the ones(different denomination's) that have reached out into other nations/countries spreading the word of God.. "Charismatic" is up there. Christ being shared to the world.. THATS what matters to me.

 

[PaulChristensen]

"Charismatic" to me not reading anything about it just say off the top of my head and been around it for years. The holy Spirit, gifts, praying the word, believing the Bible is Gods word, faith.. blah blah blah. I try not to pick some with in Charismatic and then lump them all in to thay. John MacArthur.. there are things I disagree on. I know the words he uses to describe Charismatics yet its not me he's really talking about. It is Christ, the holy Spirit. With all he knows he's very wise yet with spiritual things I believe he's still a baby in Christ. I don't know the man I have seen him preach, read things his written yet that does not mean I know the man. We see the flesh and judge knowing we never seen his heart.. praise GOD our Father looks at that.

So is "Charismatic" dangerous and heretical? It has its faults and errors as does any other group out there. Whats really interesting is when you look through out history and all the ones(different denomination's) that have reached out into other nations/countries spreading the word of God.. "Charismatic" is up there. Christ being shared to the world.. THATS what matters to me.

John MacArthur is not talking about me either.

 

[andy pandy]

To those that are uninformed, the word ecumaniac is an all-encompassing word to describe your denominational allegiances. To say it is derogatory says more about the person's ignorance than anything else. It was widely used in the UK when the Restoration movement sprang up with all sorts of expressions and no one and I mean no one took offense at the use of the word.

 

[eddif]

To those that are uninformed, the word ecumaniac is an all-encompassing word to describe your denominational allegiances. To say it is derogatory says more about the person's ignorance than anything else. It was widely used in the UK when the Restoration movement sprang up with all sorts of expressions and no one and I mean no one took offense at the use of the word.

Well the thread had a little rest.

Revelation 3:16 kjv
16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

What we are clothed with is interesting, some see prosperity. Others see poverty. etc.

With people not being lukewarm we can see who they are and address issues.

A great need of authentic spiritual gifts is starting again. To look into the matter is healthy IMHO.


Seeking truth brings self examination. Sometimes it brings us to see the wretched men we are. When we are weak then strength can manifest.

eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

To those that are uninformed, the word ecumaniac is an all-encompassing word to describe your denominational allegiances. To say it is derogatory says more about the person's ignorance than anything else. It was widely used in the UK when the Restoration movement sprang up with all sorts of expressions and no one and I mean no one took offense at the use of the word.

Do you make an allegiance to the church you attend believing everything your Pastor teaches?

 

[Free]

To those that are uninformed, the word ecumaniac is an all-encompassing word to describe your denominational allegiances. To say it is derogatory says more about the person's ignorance than anything else. It was widely used in the UK when the Restoration movement sprang up with all sorts of expressions and no one and I mean no one took offense at the use of the word.

Well, it isn't a real word but is a combination of "ecumenical" and "manic," the latter of which is quite derogatory. Perhaps you meant just ecumenic or ecumenical.

 

[Episcopius]

I do not feel the charismatic movement is dangerous, of course there are always those overboard on some things.

 

[andy pandy]

Well, it isn't a real word but is a combination of "ecumenical" and "manic," the latter of which is quite derogatory. Perhaps you meant just ecumenic or ecumenical.

I was part of the restoration movement in the UK for ten years and the word used was ecumaniac and no one took it as derogatory.

 

[andy pandy]

Do you make an allegiance to the church you attend believing everything your Pastor teaches?

NO. MY allegiance is to Jesus and the Word of God. Primarily because Jesus Christ is Lord, not the church.

 

[for_his_glory]

NO. MY allegiance is to Jesus and the Word of God. Primarily because Jesus Christ is Lord, not the church.

Good answer as many only follow what the Pastor says, but even yet we all get it wrong at times and the Holy Spirit will always send correction.

 

[eddif]

I was part of the restoration movement in the UK for ten years and the word used was ecumaniac and no one took it as derogatory.

I think several of us were, to some extent, members of the Charismatic Movement at a point in time.

Then the rejection of certain scriptures and failure to group think along with leadership, put us at odds with the group.

Those who fear charismatics fear us.
Oh well. We learned the hard way. The benefit of the experience was the hundreds of times we read the Bible to check out what was going on. I really am not totally bothered
by rejection. Both sides deride anyone who had any affiliation with Charismatics. Not everyone is bad in the movement. Just like there are some Messianic Jews that are pretty spot on with scripture. There is Jewish pressure they face to follow Moses in some area / areas.

Discernment is a spiritual gift. Guessing is not a spiritual gift.
Gossip is not a spiritual gift
Man’s wrath is not a spiritual gift
What our carnal mind thinks is not a spiritual gift (no matter what Job’s friends may say).


I do feel for people who have to wade through the quicksand surrounding the spiritual gifts. Peter got sidetracked. I hear myself make a false statement at times. Always challenge supported knowledge of error. In the challenge you may find you are the one with the error.

eddif

 

[Christ_empowered]

I'm beginning to think the charismatic movement may have -dangerous elements- . Not just in the US, either. ugh. :-(