Is The "he" of Daniel 9:27 Our Lord Jesus?

[veteran]

I understand that prophecy can skip around. All one needs to do is read Rev. to figure that out.

I may be wrong but I can't recall a prophecy that mentions an specific amount of time,(like 490 yrs), and puts a gap of time between the already specified number.

Prophecy skipping around? Definitely.
Prophecy which gives a specific time, then adds another indeterminate amount of time before the "counter" starts again? That a unique one.

Anyone have a precedent of such a thing? If you can't find a precedent I would be wary teaching/telling people that there's a gap.

Adam

It's not necessarily that our Lord put a gap of time in between the 69th and 70th week, it's simply that that final "one week" has not been fulfilled yet.

When our Lord Jesus warned of the "abomination of desolation" in Matt.24, quoting from the Book of Daniel, it was still 70 years after His crucifixion when the Roman army would come, with Jerusalem and the temple being destroyed. If that was the fulfillment of that final "one week" of Dan.9:27, which some believe (I don't), then what was that 70 years gap of time doing there in between His death and the Roman army coming upon Jerusalem?

 

[adam332]

Veteran,
sorry brother but his body was the temple and it was resurrected in 3 days as He prophesied.

You said,
"It's not necessarily that our Lord put a gap of time in between the 69th and 70th week, it's simply that that final "one week" has not been fulfilled yet".

You do understand what you just wrote? Any gap between the first week and the last week of that prophecy is a non-fulfillment and a gap.

That is why I asked for a precedent, for a gap in a specified time prophecy. You did not give me such an example. Instead you gave me another example of a claim of the same gap for a different time period! Then you admit that you don't even believe in it...alrighty then.

Other than the prophecy from Dan 9, can anyone show me any other specific time prophecy that is interrupted before it is fulfilled.

This is the whole idea of a precedent, one needs to have some evidence that such a principal applies in at least two places to establish it. One place is not enough, otherwise people could claim that Christ was like a sinning thief because he comes like a thief in the night.

Absurd and unprecedented, like saying that a time prophecy is split up simply because some people think so. No evidence, no precedents, just a completely new way of interpreting the bible.

Adam

 

[veteran]

Veteran,
sorry brother but his body was the temple and it was resurrected in 3 days as He prophesied.

You said,
"It's not necessarily that our Lord put a gap of time in between the 69th and 70th week, it's simply that that final "one week" has not been fulfilled yet".

You do understand what you just wrote? Any gap between the first week and the last week of that prophecy is a non-fulfillment and a gap.

That is why I asked for a precedent, for a gap in a specified time prophecy. You did not give me such an example. Instead you gave me another example of a claim of the same gap for a different time period! Then you admit that you don't even believe in it...alrighty then.

Other than the prophecy from Dan 9, can anyone show me any other specific time prophecy that is interrupted before it is fulfilled.

This is the whole idea of a precedent, one needs to have some evidence that such a principal applies in at least two places to establish it. One place is not enough, otherwise people could claim that Christ was like a sinning thief because he comes like a thief in the night.

Absurd and unprecedented, like saying that a time prophecy is split up simply because some people think so. No evidence, no precedents, just a completely new way of interpreting the bible.

Adam

Actually, I had already shown earlier in this thread how there is break in fulfillment between the Isaiah 61:1-2 example, when Christ read from the Book of Isaiah per Luke 4, and closed the Book to not cover the very last phrase of Isaiah 61:2. That last phrase about the day of The LORD's vengeance is about Christ's return, His second coming. We're still waiting for that last part to be fulfilled today.

Same thing with the Zech.9:9-10 example. Verse 9 was for His first coming, and verse 10 for His future second coming.

So I suggest you go back to the start of this thread and thoroughly read my original posts about the links of the final "one week" of Dan.9:27 to Dan.11 & 12, our Lord's Olivet Discourse, and His Book of Revelation.

So if you want to deny our Lord Jesus' example in that, fine. But you're disagreeing with Him on that and not me, because He gave us that clear example of rightly dividing prophecy with the Luke 4/Isaiah 61 example.

 

[Vic C.]

When our Lord Jesus warned of the "abomination of desolation" in Matt.24, quoting from the Book of Daniel, it was still 70 years after His crucifixion when the Roman army would come, with Jerusalem and the temple being destroyed. If that was the fulfillment of that final "one week" of Dan.9:27, which some believe (I don't), then what was that 70 years gap of time doing there in between His death and the Roman army coming upon Jerusalem?

Hi Vet, at face value, this indeed can be a stumbling block. It was for me because I kept on reading it with my preconceived slant.

But it's not an issue when you understand this is nothing more than a parenthesis (outside the main time line of the prophecy, which I have stated over and over). Besides, it more like aprox. 40 years, not 70. How did you come up with 70 years?

Oh yeah, one more thing. There is a thread somewhere else on the boards on "right division". It just may turn out to be an interesting topic. :yes You gave verses and passages above that do not, in any way, lay out specific time lines for their prophetic fulfillment. So they are invalid in making your point. Sorry.

Rest assured when Jesus says three days, or when God says forty days and forty night, or in this case, 490 years, I must conclude, they mean what they say.

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

:amen

 

[lecoop]

Veteran,
sorry brother but his body was the temple and it was resurrected in 3 days as He prophesied.

You said,
"It's not necessarily that our Lord put a gap of time in between the 69th and 70th week, it's simply that that final "one week" has not been fulfilled yet".

You do understand what you just wrote? Any gap between the first week and the last week of that prophecy is a non-fulfillment and a gap.

That is why I asked for a precedent, for a gap in a specified time prophecy. You did not give me such an example. Instead you gave me another example of a claim of the same gap for a different time period! Then you admit that you don't even believe in it...alrighty then.

Other than the prophecy from Dan 9, can anyone show me any other specific time prophecy that is interrupted before it is fulfilled.

This is the whole idea of a precedent, one needs to have some evidence that such a principal applies in at least two places to establish it. One place is not enough, otherwise people could claim that Christ was like a sinning thief because he comes like a thief in the night.

Absurd and unprecedented, like saying that a time prophecy is split up simply because some people think so. No evidence, no precedents, just a completely new way of interpreting the bible.

Adam

"yet 40 days and Ninivah shall be destroyed."

10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Yet Ninivah WAS destroyed later, in 612 BC. (Jonah preached there perhaps 750 BC)

Coop

 

[precepts]

lecoop's
"yet 40 days and Ninivah shall be destroyed."

10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Yet Ninivah WAS destroyed later, in 612 BC. (Jonah preached there perhaps 750 BC)

Let's be rational, nobody said that God couldn't repent. The fact was that there's no gap in prophecies, if they're to be fulfilled, they will be, without any gaps. How's 490yrs going to be 490yrs if there's gaps between the yrs?

And like I said before, Cyrus, who died in 529bc, is the one who gave the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. The decree was given in 539bc, which doesn't add up. That's the facts.!

 

[adam332]

Actually, I had already shown earlier in this thread how there is break in fulfillment between the Isaiah 61:1-2 example, when Christ read from the Book of Isaiah per Luke 4, and closed the Book to not cover the very last phrase of Isaiah 61:2. That last phrase about the day of The LORD's vengeance is about Christ's return, His second coming. We're still waiting for that last part to be fulfilled today.

Same thing with the Zech.9:9-10 example. Verse 9 was for His first coming, and verse 10 for His future second coming.

So I suggest you go back to the start of this thread and thoroughly read my original posts about the links of the final "one week" of Dan.9:27 to Dan.11 & 12, our Lord's Olivet Discourse, and His Book of Revelation.

So if you want to deny our Lord Jesus' example in that, fine. But you're disagreeing with Him on that and not me, because He gave us that clear example of rightly dividing prophecy with the Luke 4/Isaiah 61 example.

Sorry Veteran, those passages give nothing remotely close to a precedent. They are simply prophecies that skip around. No set time period is established for the fulfillment, (such as 490yrs).

Veteran please read my post more carefully, I started it with saying that I know prophecy skips around. So as a precedent you use verses that skip around? I'll ask again and maybe this time you'll actually provide something tangible.

Can anyone show me a set time prophecy that is interrupted for an unspecified amount of time before the "counter" starts again? Just looking for a single precedent folks. Anyone?

Adam

 

[precepts]

Must not of read my post? :o

 

[adam332]

"yet 40 days and Ninivah shall be destroyed."

10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Yet Ninivah WAS destroyed later, in 612 BC. (Jonah preached there perhaps 750 BC)

Coop

Pretty close Coop, but not the precedent I asked. There is no indication that it's later destruction was connected with this prophecy. There is no indication the "counter" stopped and that an amount of time had lapsed and then, the "counter" started again. Just a basic case of conditional prophecy.

If God's say clean up your act or I will destroy, you. You can clean up your act and then God will keep his part of the bargain and not destroy you. That's a prophecy that is conditional, do this and this will happen, don't do it and this other thing will happen, simple contract/covenant between 2 parties.

So, if I clean up my act and God doesn't destroy me, but ten years later I get hit by a bus...doesn't mean that the prophecy was fulfilled. One has nothing to do with the other, there was no "counter" restarted to finish the specific time prophecy. The counter was turned completely off when they cleaned up their act.

Again I'm waiting for a single precedent.

Adam

 

[lecoop]

"yet 40 days and Ninivah shall be destroyed."

10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Yet Ninivah WAS destroyed later, in 612 BC. (Jonah preached there perhaps 750 BC)

Coop

Pretty close Coop, but not the precedent I asked. There is no indication that it's later destruction was connected with this prophecy. There is no indication the "counter" stopped and that an amount of time had lapsed and then, the "counter" started again. Just a basic case of conditional prophecy.

If God's say clean up your act or I will destroy, you. You can clean up your act and then God will keep his part of the bargain and not destroy you. That's a prophecy that is conditional, do this and this will happen, don't do it and this other thing will happen, simple contract/covenant between 2 parties.

So, if I clean up my act and God doesn't destroy me, but ten years later I get hit by a bus...doesn't mean that the prophecy was fulfilled. One has nothing to do with the other, there was no "counter" restarted to finish the specific time prophecy. The counter was turned completely off when they cleaned up their act.

Again I'm waiting for a single precedent.

Adam

Except that the prophecy, "yet 40 days and Ninivah will be destroyed" had no IF's. The ONLY thing that changed is the time. They returned to their evil ways, so God retured to the destruction.

But, does GOD NEED a precedent as you suppose? Can He do a NEW thing? Of course he can.
So it makes little difference if we find a precedent or don't. In this case, it may be a good thing for US, is He did do a new thing: if the 70th week had happened then, WE might not exist to be holding this discussion.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

lecoop's
"yet 40 days and Ninivah shall be destroyed."

10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Yet Ninivah WAS destroyed later, in 612 BC. (Jonah preached there perhaps 750 BC)

Let's be rational, nobody said that God couldn't repent. The fact was that there's no gap in prophecies, if they're to be fulfilled, they will be, without any gaps. How's 490yrs going to be 490yrs if there's gaps between the yrs?

And like I said before, Cyrus, who died in 529bc, is the one who gave the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. The decree was given in 539bc, which doesn't add up. That's the facts.!

Yet, if God made an end of things in 33-40 AD, or anything close to that, none of us would be here. If God made a decision to put off that final week for 2000 years (and it seems VERY likely He did) I am certainly not going say He should not have.

Coop

 

[adam332]

So with no precedent, you are going to teach people that that counter has been turned off and will be restarted at a later date? Because that's what you think?

I admit there does not have to be a precedent for it to be correct, it can and may be a completely unique prophecy. But, it sure is dangerous ground teaching this, with absolutely no shred of evidence or example... except that you believe it.

Not really a Berean manner of discerning scripture. Everyone has theories when the Bible doesn't show us enough information to absolutely confirm something. But, a theory with no, examples, or precedents, shouldn't be taught as anything other than a theory.

It's an interesting idea but there just is no way to confirm it, it's just a theory without anything to back it up.

Adam

 

[precepts]

For what reason does the gentleman from Florida rise?

 

[Sinthesis]

Must not of read my post? :o

Seventh year of Artaxerxes I of Persia...458BC+- :yes
See Ezra and then Nehemiah for the rebuilding of the wall etc.

 

[precepts]

Sinthesis' quote
[quote:o72g8jjy]precepts wrote:
Must not of read my post?

Seventh year of Artaxerxes I of Persia...458BC+-
See Ezra and then Nehemiah for the rebuilding of the wall etc. [/quote:o72g8jjy]Since when? I've been on these sites long enough to know when this change occurred, it was only after I provided the fact about Cyrus' death in 529bc is when this theory came about. Another is that Ezra and Nehemiah are the ones that rebuilt the temple after Babylon's captivity. But they're all lies to hide the truth.


The 70 weeks prophecy is given in the time of Darius after he conquered Babylon:

Dan 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

History proves that the temple was completed in the 6th yr of Darius, the same Darius that conquered Babylon under Cyrus.

Ezr 6:14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished [it], according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.
Ezr 6:15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.

Another historical fact, Darius the Mede was crowned king of Pesia after the death of Cyrus' son, Artaxerxes.

 

[lecoop]

So with no precedent, you are going to teach people that that counter has been turned off and will be restarted at a later date? Because that's what you think?

I admit there does not have to be a precedent for it to be correct, it can and may be a completely unique prophecy. But, it sure is dangerous ground teaching this, with absolutely no shred of evidence or example... except that you believe it.

Not really a Berean manner of discerning scripture. Everyone has theories when the Bible doesn't show us enough information to absolutely confirm something. But, a theory with no, examples, or precedents, shouldn't be taught as anything other than a theory.

It's an interesting idea but there just is no way to confirm it, it's just a theory without anything to back it up.

Adam

We cannot try to interpret Daniel 9 by just the book of Daniel - for now we have MUCH more to use. Therefore, when we see so many things written in Revelation that hint strongly of a 7 year period of time, with SO MANY events that have not happened yet, so must be future to us, and some scriptures almost word for word of what Daniel wrote, it is only wisdom to believe that there is yet a 7 year period of time ehead of us. In fact, if the book of Daniel was lost, we STILL have enough in Revelation to understand a 7 year period of time. With Daniel and Revelation together, it is a SURE thing.

Therefore, it is FAR MORE than a theory; it is the truth of scripture.

Coop

 

[adam332]

We cannot try to interpret Daniel 9 by just the book of Daniel - for now we have MUCH more to use. Therefore, when we see so many things written in Revelation that hint strongly of a 7 year period of time, with SO MANY events that have not happened yet, so must be future to us, and some scriptures almost word for word of what Daniel wrote, it is only wisdom to believe that there is yet a 7 year period of time ehead of us. In fact, if the book of Daniel was lost, we STILL have enough in Revelation to understand a 7 year period of time. With Daniel and Revelation together, it is a SURE thing.

Therefore, it is FAR MORE than a theory; it is the truth of scripture.

Coop

Again coop you are talking about a "hint" that you have decided is doctrine. Not even showing the hint(verses) that tells most about your belief.

Adam

 

[precepts]

DITTO! :crazy

 

[lecoop]

We cannot try to interpret Daniel 9 by just the book of Daniel - for now we have MUCH more to use. Therefore, when we see so many things written in Revelation that hint strongly of a 7 year period of time, with SO MANY events that have not happened yet, so must be future to us, and some scriptures almost word for word of what Daniel wrote, it is only wisdom to believe that there is yet a 7 year period of time ehead of us. In fact, if the book of Daniel was lost, we STILL have enough in Revelation to understand a 7 year period of time. With Daniel and Revelation together, it is a SURE thing.

Therefore, it is FAR MORE than a theory; it is the truth of scripture.

Coop

Again coop you are talking about a "hint" that you have decided is doctrine. Not even showing the hint(verses) that tells most about your belief.

Adam

Adam, John gave us the second half of the week FIVE TIMES in days, months and times (years). Even a beginning arithmatic student should be able to multipy by two. This is more than "doctrine," it is what is written. More than that, Daniel wrote of this same 3 1/2 years TWICE MORE. So, Adam, HOW MANY PROOFS does one require before one believes? Both Daniel and John made it clear that these times will start at or very near the abomination that divides the week.

Therefore, since a 7 year period of time IS FOUND in Revelation (albeit with a little simple arithmatic) it is good proof that the missing week in Daniel's 70th week is STILL ahead of us. Add to that the fact that the earth has seen NOTHING like the 7 trumpets or 7 vials. Therefore, any sane student of Revelation would conclude that these things are ahead of us.

Coop

 

[adam332]

Adam, John gave us the second half of the week FIVE TIMES in days, months and times (years). Even a beginning arithmatic student should be able to multipy by two. This is more than "doctrine," it is what is written. More than that, Daniel wrote of this same 3 1/2 years TWICE MORE. So, Adam, HOW MANY PROOFS does one require before one believes? Both Daniel and John made it clear that these times will start at or very near the abomination that divides the week.

Therefore, since a 7 year period of time IS FOUND in Revelation (albeit with a little simple arithmatic) it is good proof that the missing week in Daniel's 70th week is STILL ahead of us. Add to that the fact that the earth has seen NOTHING like the 7 trumpets or 7 vials. Therefore, any sane student of Revelation would conclude that these things are ahead of us.

Coop

You first have to establish that the week is missing. To do that you have to establish that a specific time prophecy can have a week stripped off and placed 2000 yrs away from the rest of the time prophecy. To do that you have to have an example or precedent that time prophecies can be turned off and later restarted.

You have no example or precedent, therefore you can't seriously think you have the right determine that this one time prophecy can be interpreted differently than any other specific time prophecy.

What scares me is this, you said...
"Therefore, it is FAR MORE than a theory; it is the truth of scripture."

An unproven, unprecedented interpretation that blatantly conflicts with the prophecy that says it will last precisely 490 day/years. And you are telling others that this "is the truth of scripture". You just told everyone reading that your beliefs and your interpretation is the truth of scripture.

Scary statement there buddy, some may think that statement was blasphemous.