IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[Chopper]

So let me get this straight.

You are teaching that Jesus explained to His Disciples, when asked about His Coming and the end of the age, two "different" Comings in Matthew 24?

One in Matthew 24:33 that is after the tribulation, and another different Coming in Matthew 24:44?

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. 45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:29-51

But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Jesus taught us He will Come after the tribulation and there would be two types of people:

Those who were carrying on with there lives unaware. [Children of the night]

Those who prepared as Noah did, as they saw the signs of the times. [Children of the day]

Not two Comings, but two types of people who are alive at His Coming.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4


The truths about the Coming of the Lord that we have all have been made aware of in this thread, are as follows:

The Resurrection comes before the Rapture. ... the dead in Christ will rise first
The Resurrection can not be separated from the Rapture. ... caught up together with them
The Resurrection/Rapture happens at the coming of the Lord. ... For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord. and again -
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


The Lord will come once more -

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

The Rapture can not happen before the resurrection of the dead.

The Resurrection occurs at His coming.

His Coming occurs after the tribulation.


JLB

Wow, I like your post JLB. I can't see anything wrong with it. Jesus appeared once to take away our sins, and a second time to take His believers away. Praise God.

 

[JLB]

No, I'm not teaching it...I'm learning it. The different verses sound as if they may be talking about separate events. I'm not positive.

Verse 33 says He will come after certain signs. Verse 44 says that no one knows when He is coming. The disciples that were speaking to Jesus asked Jesus what are the signs of your coming...if Jesus is coming for His church, and also to judge the world and set up His millennial kingdom...it could be held within the same conversation. You don't find even the slightest bit of difference in the verses or of how He was speaking?

Yes.

To one blessing and promotion.

To the other... Cut in pieces assigned to outer darkness.

To those who await Him. He will appear a second time.

 

[JLB]

I'm not ignoring you, JLB. Just doing a little studying before I reply...;)

No hurry Brother.

There are about three different threads that deal with this subject, and there is always the other one, over there.

 

[reba]

In thinking about the literal times Jesus came to earth...
He was born here... that is a easy one..
when we go to His resurrection... it is not so simple
Here is Jesus talking to Mary He says ....
Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

After about a week best i can tell...Jesus says this...
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Did He ascend ? return and now can be touched?

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

 

[Chopper]

In thinking about the literal times Jesus came to earth...
He was born here... that is a easy one..
when we go to His resurrection... it is not so simple
Here is Jesus talking to Mary He says ....
Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

After about a week best i can tell...Jesus says this...
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Did He ascend ? return and now can be touched?

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Oh my, you have your thinking cap on for sure. I'm very surprised that no one else came up with that. You are absolutely right! He did in fact ascend, and returned to His disciples and a few others as a witness to His resurrection. His resurrection would not have been believed if He did not return. It was for a witness and nothing else. I think the statement of Thomas tells the tale. He said, "Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe". That is why He had to return.

 

[Sinthesis]

In thinking about the literal times Jesus came to earth...
He was born here... that is a easy one..
when we go to His resurrection... it is not so simple
Here is Jesus talking to Mary He says ....
Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

After about a week best i can tell...Jesus says this...
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Did He ascend ? return and now can be touched?

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Jhn 16:7

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Jesus did not want Mary to 'cling' to His physical presence because it would interfere with her ability to faithfully accept the Holy Spirit, sent after His Ascension, as God's spiritual presence.

Touch

g680
ἅπτομαι haptomai

1. to fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to
   1. to touch
   2. of carnal intercourse with a women or cohabitation
   3. of levitical practice of having no fellowship with heathen practices. Things not to be touched appear to be both women and certain kinds of food, so celibacy and abstinence of certain kinds of food and drink are recommended.
   4. to touch, assail anyone
      

 

[reba]

Do we know the time frame of the Thomas story to the story of Emmaus,

Sometimes the way things are written it can be hard for me to follow... Luke 24 are they telling the story of what happened on the first day of the week .... Like i might say to you it was on the first day of the week Mary showed up at His grave.. if time passed where was Jesus? I dont know i am not saying one way or the other... and the use of the word story does not mean in any way it is not TRUTH

 

[reba]

Interesting Sinthesis I do not question God's Word i do very much question our understandings of it..

 

[Deborah13]

Jhn 16:7

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Jesus did not want Mary to 'cling' to His physical presence because it would interfere with her ability to faithfully accept the Holy Spirit, sent after His Ascension, as God's spiritual presence.

Touch

g680
ἅπτομαι haptomai

1. to fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to
   1. to touch
   2. of carnal intercourse with a women or cohabitation
   3. of levitical practice of having no fellowship with heathen practices. Things not to be touched appear to be both women and certain kinds of food, so celibacy and abstinence of certain kinds of food and drink are recommended.
   4. to touch, assail anyone

Hi Sinthesis,
I have seen this explanation which could be all that He was saying except for this....

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Why would He tell her to go and tell the others "I ascend unto my Father...." if He would only do that much later and some of them would witness it?

 

[Sinthesis]

Hi Sinthesis,
I have seen this explanation which could be all that He was saying except for this....

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Why would He tell her to go and tell the others "I ascend unto my Father...." if He would only do that much later and some of them would witness it?

Deu 21:23

“his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God.

Jesus is countering the conclusion His grieving followers would have come to that He had been accursed by His God, and their God, through the humiliation of His death the the Cross. He wants them to know that He is still in fact their Messiah. Further, the perceived offense He endured, and which their faith in Him surely stumbled upon, needed to happen as preamble to Jesus' being raised up to heavenly glory by God. The idea of 'ascend' is not just about the spectacle the disciples would witness forty days later, but also relates to our understanding of Jesus as the Son of God in His relationship to God the Father.

While today we focus on Jesus' bodily Resurrection, His disciples would have recently experienced the bodily resurrection of Lazarus. We don't worship Lazarus, even though he was raised, because his resurrection was only bodily. In the same way, we are not to worship Jesus if we believe He was only a 'good' man raised from the dead. We worship Jesus because we know He is God incarnate. The Resurrection is an evidence to help lead us to acceptance that Jesus is God.

Finally, it is not as if they were not to simply touch him physically:

Mat 28:9
¶And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

 

[JLB]

That may be so, but have you ever noticed that after Jesus resurrection, he was only seen by loving eyes and only touched by loving hands? No one else. I'm not sure what the point of that is, but I did notice it so had the thought to interject it.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God...8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,8

... the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

The Brightness of His Coming will be seen by all, as well as it will destroy the lawless one.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

That may be so, but have you ever noticed that after Jesus resurrection, he was only seen by loving eyes and only touched by loving hands? No one else. I'm not sure what the point of that is, but I did notice it so had the thought to interject it.

Hi Ed, I hadn't noticed that before but you are right. It's funny, I always thought that there was an unfinished work with the body of Jesus at the point that He had come back to life in a body that was not finished. It would be finished when He returned to the Father. Then, with a finished body, would sit down on His throne. Jesus did not want Mary to touch His not yet completed body.

 

[Chopper]

Yeah, another thing is that Jesus was different after he rose up. He appeared to the disciples in the upper room. He didn't walk through the wall, He appeared and then disappeared...interesting.

That has always intrigued me, how with a body, He can appear and disappear like that.

 

[Deborah13]

Deu 21:23

“his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God.

Jesus is countering the conclusion His grieving followers would have come to that He had been accursed by His God, and their God, through the humiliation of His death the the Cross. He wants them to know that He is still in fact their Messiah. Further, the perceived offense He endured, and which their faith in Him surely stumbled upon, needed to happen as preamble to Jesus' being raised up to heavenly glory by God. The idea of 'ascend' is not just about the spectacle the disciples would witness forty days later, but also relates to our understanding of Jesus as the Son of God in His relationship to God the Father.

While today we focus on Jesus' bodily Resurrection, His disciples would have recently experienced the bodily resurrection of Lazarus. We don't worship Lazarus, even though he was raised, because his resurrection was only bodily. In the same way, we are not to worship Jesus if we believe He was only a 'good' man raised from the dead. We worship Jesus because we know He is God incarnate. The Resurrection is an evidence to help lead us to acceptance that Jesus is God.

Finally, it is not as if they were not to simply touch him physically:

Mat 28:9
¶And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Oh Sinthesis, I apologize. Somehow I missed this post! Thank you for your response.

What you have said is close to what M. Henry, commentary says as well, if I'm understanding you correctly.
I think someone else, maybe Eugene mentioned not clinging to Him as if to keep Him with her but He reminded her that He would ascend.

 

[Chopper]

He was different, that's for sure. I think, just like more happened after the fall in Eden than people normally grasp, more happened to Him after the resurrection. He was still in a flesh body but had more empowerment. Walking through walls is one thing but appearing and disappearing suggests something entirely different...and significant. Multi-dimensional capabilities perhaps? We may not know until we are translated ourselves and can see Him as He really is. It may also be related in some way as to why He didn't anyone except loving hands to touch Him afterwards also.

Like touching a live wire perhaps. A transfer of energy.

Yea, good thinking Brother. There is so much that is beyond our comprehension. It will be a whole new chapter in our lives, for sure.

 

[jasoncran]

the problem with end times is that we are dogmatic on the mysteries and not dogmatic on the plain words.

 

[Chopper]

the problem with end times is that we are dogmatic on the mysteries and not dogmatic on the plain words.

That's a true statement friend.

 

[reba]

the problem with end times is that we are dogmatic on the mysteries and not dogmatic on the plain words.

no kidden

 

[Sinthesis]

the problem with end times is that we are dogmatic on the mysteries and not dogmatic on the plain words.

Very true

 

[IwreckNsow]

Who is the bride?

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.


JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:


The bride, backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?


LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.


Yup. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.


REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:


Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel just as the old testament scriptures say.