IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[Free]

1) God continues to give us revelation about His Word. Danial said in the last days knowledge shall increase.

Firstly, do you mind posting where Daniel says this? Secondly, regardless of who said it, it does not mean that they were referring to knowledge of Scripture. In fact, they likely did not have that in mind.

2) Anyone could have seen it, it's in the Word.

People see all sorts of things in the Bible that really aren't there. Context is everything.

3) The More you have read about the Rapture where?? You need to examine with God in the Word and shut everyone else out.

Why do think he hasn't? Just because he disagrees with you?

The Shepherd of Hermas 95AD taught the church will escape the tribulation through their faith somehow.

Already addressed--not the rapture. Not mention when you previously put this forward, the date was 150 AD.

Ephraem of Nisibis Taught the coming of the Lord Jesus to get the saints before the tribulation 306AD

Brother Dolcino 1307 taught a rapture before tribulation.

All such claims and quotes need sources.

These are the works we have. The concept is not new at all.

There are about 3-4 key scriptures that depending on how you read them that make it a pre or post trib event.

Or show that it is not a rapture at all.

 

[Chopper]

There is something else that everyone should know and understand how important this thread is going to be. I am absolutely confident that what we come up with, a completely Scriptural theology of "End Times" with the absence of man made, denominational traditions, and any other made up doctrine. When this is complete, and we all agree, then I intend to send copies to all the Christian Universities for their examination and possibly for them to teach! See where I'm going with this. It will be called something like this. "The Christian Forum.net Scriptural theology on end times". Of course it must be approved by the owner and staff of CF.net, it will certainly focus on "One Spirit, One Body, One Forum".

 

[Brother Mike]

Firstly, do you mind posting where Daniel says this? Secondly, regardless of who said it, it does not mean that they were referring to knowledge of Scripture. In fact, they likely did not have that in mind.


People see all sorts of things in the Bible that really aren't there. Context is everything.

Yes it is..........

Why do think he hasn't? Just because he disagrees with you?

Pay attention to what He wrote, it was based on Hal Lindsey, the Age Post tribbers give the pre trib rapture, not what he studied.

Already addressed--not the rapture. Not mention when you previously put this forward, the date was 150 AD.

The Writing is said to be anywhere from 95Ad to 150Ad they are not sure. All they have is the manuscript with that general time period.

It don't matter if the pre trib rapture or anything else was found today in the Word. Saying that we know every revelation from God in His word is like saying God has nothing else to show us. It just don't make sense to even think that way.

All such claims and quotes need sources.

I gave the source, even the guys name. I just did not feel like looking up but I think I did post part of his work somewhere. Google is your friend.

I don't purposely try to mislead anyone and if I am wrong I constantly believe God to get me to see it right away. I am trying my best not to get stuck in a doctrine to where I can't learn anymore.

Or show that it is not a rapture at all.

It just takes one of these scriptures despite some others as the others can't be if one of these is Post or Pre trib. We all know these few key scripture so I won't waste the space going into them.

 

[dc.apostello]

The Epistle is addressed to Christians. It is further qualified by 'we who are alive and remain', who will join those who are 'asleep' (as with Stephen in Acts, a term which denotes death) in the meeting in the air.

This is what it says; but I don't want to get into an argument.

Blessings.

christ said jarius daughter she is not dead but asleep and they laugh him to scorn

 

[Sinthesis]

There is something else that everyone should know and understand how important this thread is going to be. I am absolutely confident that what we come up with, a completely Scriptural theology of "End Times" with the absence of man made, denominational traditions, and any other made up doctrine. When this is complete, and we all agree, then I intend to send copies to all the Christian Universities for their examination and possibly for them to teach! See where I'm going with this. It will be called something like this. "The Christian Forum.net Scriptural theology on end times". Of course it must be approved by the owner and staff of CF.net, it will certainly focus on "One Spirit, One Body, One Forum".

To do this we should establish what is meant by "end times". From the OT we are given many examples of "end times" for various entities. I believe that much of the discord around "end times" revolves around confusion as to who/what biblical prophecies are directed at. It is clear that every component of creation does not share the same destiny, so I believe it is a mistake to assume "end times" are universal.

I very much doubt we will be able to distill a consensus on end times, and on non-salvic matters I don't think consensus is needed at the personal level. Yet as to how these beliefs affect the actions of groups that hold them, it seems that assumed beliefs without valid scriptural support could interfere with the work of the great commission. For example, hiding in a cave awaiting a rapture is hardly effective in spreading the Gospel.

 

[dc.apostello]

those who are alive and remain.

 

[Chopper]

To do this we should establish what is meant by "end times". From the OT we are given many examples of "end times" for various entities. I believe that much of the discord around "end times" revolves around confusion as to who/what biblical prophecies are directed at. It is clear that every component of creation does not share the same destiny, so I believe it is a mistake to assume "end times" are universal.

I very much doubt we will be able to distill a consensus on end times, and on non-salvic matters I don't think consensus is needed at the personal level. Yet as to how these beliefs affect the actions of groups that hold them, it seems that assumed beliefs without valid scriptural support could interfere with the work of the great commission. For example, hiding in a cave awaiting a rapture is hardly effective in spreading the Gospel.

Thank you for your post. I agree, I hadn't thought that the words end times had various meanings. Do you have a suggestion as a more appropriate title?

 

[Chopper]

It just takes one of these scriptures despite some others as the others can't be if one of these is Post or Pre trib. We all know these few key scripture so I won't waste the space going into them.

Be nice Mike, you are the one who demands that statement must have a Scriptural backing.

 

[JLB]

Hey this turning out to be a good thread. Bless you all for that. I think the KJV is A fine translation to stick to on this for the reasons already stated, widely accepted, easy to use the Concordance with.

Free


Well, personally I blieve that the more you study on this, the more obvious that it get that it is two events that happen (discounting Elijah & Enoch and so forth). For instance, take a look at:

Matthew 24: 29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other./(KJV)

and:

1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord./(KJV)

If there is no 2nd event (rapture) then, who gathers the believers? Jesus or the Angels? Do we go to the air to be with Him, or wait to be gathered by Angels? Or are you separating the elect from the rest of the believers? If this is what you do, can you post the scripture which identifies them as a separate group of believers?

These are both the same event!

Here is the common language.

the Son of Man coming... Matthew 24:30

the coming of the Lord... 1 Thessalonians 4:15

The Lord Jesus Coming in both scriptures.



JLB

 

[Chopper]

Hey this turning out to be a good thread. Bless you all for that. I think the KJV is A fine translation to stick to on this for the reasons already stated, widely accepted, easy to use the Concordance with.

Free


Well, personally I believe that the more you study on this, the more obvious that it get that it is two events that happen (discounting Elijah & Enoch and so forth). For instance, take a look at:

Matthew 24: 29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other./(KJV)

and:

1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord./(KJV)

If there is no 2nd event (rapture) then, who gathers the believers? Jesus or the Angels? Do we go to the air to be with Him, or wait to be gathered by Angels? Or are you separating the elect from the rest of the believers? If this is what you do, can you post the scripture which identifies them as a separate group of believers?

Thank you Edward. The separation of elect and others is a topic we will have to discuss right after we decide on a translation of the Bible and approve of what has been accomplished so far. Make sure I don't forget because your question is very important.

 

[Chopper]

Hi Gang....I have staff member Free, who likes the KJV as our official translation, and me. If no one else reply's then it's settled.

 

[ezrider]

Hi Gang....I have staff member Free, who likes the KJV as our official translation, and me. If no one else reply's then it's settled.

My preference is definitely the KJV, but I would only caution that we not get caught up in the letter of the words, but rather focus on the spirit of the message.

 

[Brother Mike]

Be nice Mike, you are the one who demands that statement must have a Scriptural backing.

OK............... I'll be nice (As always)

EXAMPLE:

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Joh_15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Here are a couple scriptures that only through and in the Lord Jesus can we bare fruit from him. Jesus Christ the Church is His fruit, or us the anointed (CHRIST) Firstfruits.

The resurrection event is a timing event that both post and pre tribbers fight over.

As for the resurrection, Jesus was first so He is the firstfruit of all the sleep (Have died and waiting in Heaven for their bodies to rule on earth with Jesus)


These set of scriptures: Post Trib View

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Jesus Christ first or the Anointed One first (Christ means anointed but many consider it a proper Male Greek noun which also means Jesus the Anointed)

Now watch..............

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The the Resurrection order was Christ (Jesus the anointed one) the firstfruit (verse 20 above) then those that are his at his coming.

Jesus comes after the 6th, 7th Seal and 7th Angelic trumpet blast ending Tribulation.


These set of scriptures: Pre Trib View

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Christ was first from the dead.

Pre trib takes another scripture into consideration..

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ(The: added by translators) firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(1Co 15:22-23)

So, everyone "IN" Christ from the vine the anointed Church get resurrected first as Christ firstfuits. The whole subject now is those "IN" Christ and the Order of the Resurrection of those "IN" Christ. Jesus had already been established above as being the firstfuit so Paul is not talking about Jesus again as Jesus had already been Resurrected. Paul said Now........... NOW is Christ risen from the dead.

Every man in his order will be resurrected later............ The anointed firstfruit (Christ firstfruit) then those are are just His after.

So we have a group that are the Lords fruit and later those that are his or belong to him but not "IN" him.

These are they that are just HIS........... not "IN" him as the anointed church but his. They are firstfuits out of tribulation UNTO, NOT "IN" that belong to God and the lamb.

Rev_14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


One example of one set of scriptures that change the view from post to pre or pre to Post.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

OK............... I'll be nice (As always)

EXAMPLE:

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Joh_15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Here are a couple scriptures that only through and in the Lord Jesus can we bare fruit from him. Jesus Christ the Church is His fruit, or us the anointed (CHRIST) Firstfruits.

The resurrection event is a timing event that both post and pre tribbers fight over.

As for the resurrection, Jesus was first so He is the firstfruit of all the sleep (Have died and waiting in Heaven for their bodies to rule on earth with Jesus)


These set of scriptures: Post Trib View

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Jesus Christ first or the Anointed One first (Christ means anointed but many consider it a proper Male Greek noun which also means Jesus the Anointed)

Now watch..............

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The the Resurrection order was Christ (Jesus the anointed one) the firstfruit (verse 20 above) then those that are his at his coming.

Jesus comes after the 6th, 7th Seal and 7th Angelic trumpet blast ending Tribulation.


These set of scriptures: Pre Trib View

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Christ was first from the dead.

Pre trib takes another scripture into consideration..

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ(The: added by translators) firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(1Co 15:22-23)

So, everyone "IN" Christ from the vine the anointed Church get resurrected first as Christ firstfuits. The whole subject now is those "IN" Christ and the Order of the Resurrection of those "IN" Christ. Jesus had already been established above as being the firstfuit so Paul is not talking about Jesus again as Jesus had already been Resurrected. Paul said Now........... NOW is Christ risen from the dead.

Every man in his order will be resurrected later............ The anointed firstfruit (Christ firstfruit) then those are are just His after.

So we have a group that are the Lords fruit and later those that are his or belong to him but not "IN" him.

These are they that are just HIS........... not "IN" him as the anointed church but his. They are firstfuits out of tribulation UNTO, NOT "IN" that belong to God and the lamb.

Rev_14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


One example of one set of scriptures that change the view from post to pre or pre to Post.

Mike.

Sorry Brother Mike,

One resurrection of "those who are Christ's".

Those who are Christ's is a reference to ALL of the Church.

When?

At His Coming.

 

[Chopper]

OK............... I'll be nice (As always)

EXAMPLE:

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Joh_15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Here are a couple scriptures that only through and in the Lord Jesus can we bare fruit from him. Jesus Christ the Church is His fruit, or us the anointed (CHRIST) Firstfruits.

The resurrection event is a timing event that both post and pre tribbers fight over.

As for the resurrection, Jesus was first so He is the firstfruit of all the sleep (Have died and waiting in Heaven for their bodies to rule on earth with Jesus)


These set of scriptures: Post Trib View

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Jesus Christ first or the Anointed One first (Christ means anointed but many consider it a proper Male Greek noun which also means Jesus the Anointed)

Now watch..............

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The the Resurrection order was Christ (Jesus the anointed one) the firstfruit (verse 20 above) then those that are his at his coming.

Jesus comes after the 6th, 7th Seal and 7th Angelic trumpet blast ending Tribulation.


These set of scriptures: Pre Trib View

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Christ was first from the dead.

Pre trib takes another scripture into consideration..

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ(The: added by translators) firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(1Co 15:22-23)

So, everyone "IN" Christ from the vine the anointed Church get resurrected first as Christ firstfuits. The whole subject now is those "IN" Christ and the Order of the Resurrection of those "IN" Christ. Jesus had already been established above as being the firstfuit so Paul is not talking about Jesus again as Jesus had already been Resurrected. Paul said Now........... NOW is Christ risen from the dead.

Every man in his order will be resurrected later............ The anointed firstfruit (Christ firstfruit) then those are are just His after.

So we have a group that are the Lords fruit and later those that are his or belong to him but not "IN" him.

These are they that are just HIS........... not "IN" him as the anointed church but his. They are firstfuits out of tribulation UNTO, NOT "IN" that belong to God and the lamb.

Rev_14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


One example of one set of scriptures that change the view from post to pre or pre to Post.

Mike.

Thank you Mike.

 

[Chopper]

My preference is definitely the KJV, but I would only caution that we not get caught up in the letter of the words, but rather focus on the spirit of the message.

Good idea Brother.

 

[ezrider]

Chopper, I have to applaud you first and foremost for exploring this topic with an open mind. I have found that the Lord does not teach us as readily as we think until we are first able to able to concede that we really know nothing as we should and are able to let go of the doctrines that have bound us since we first believed. For myself, there is nothing of the Rapture theory that I ascribe to, whether it be pre, mid or post tribulation. The idea of looking forward to escaping the tribulation through a secret rapture does nothing but demonstrate a lack of faith and trust in the Lord. Sure, the tribulation may be a frightful experience, but believing that anyone will escape it is just a convenient way of comforting themselves in face of that fear.

Now the scripture tells us that all these things happened unto them for examples, and they are written for our admonition. So I ask, where in the scripture do we have an example that would conform to a rapture ideology? There are none that I can think of. But there are plenty of examples that do quite the contrary. First, as in the days of Noah: now on this there is much to speak of, but I will reserve that for a different thread so it does not derail this one. But as in the days of Noah, the flood came and took all the rest away, yet because of Noah’s Faith, he remained and persevered. Joseph, when he was sold into slavery by his brothers did not escape the tribulations he endured. Instead he remained faithful and endured, and the Lord raised him up a ruler over the land. The children of Israel did not escape first from the land of Egypt before the judgement came. They endured the same plagues as did the Egyptians, and when it came time for the spirit of Death to consume all firstborn, the children of Israel endured by faith and obedience under the protection of the blood of the Lamb upon the doorpost. Should we expect anything different?

The only example that would give pause to consider further, would be when Judgement came upon the tribe of Judah and Jerusalem through the Babylonians: Here the faithful were told not only to leave Jerusalem, but also to submit themselves to their enemies, to go into the land of Babylon, and there they would be protected. Yet they still had to persevere through tribulation, as the three children and the fiery furnace; they did not escape the furnace, instead the Lord built up a hedge about them and protected them through the fire and in the midst of the fire.

And last but not least, we have the parable of the wheat and the tares, and there too we are shown that the tares are gather first to be burnt, and then the wheat is gathered into the barn. As you can see, there are many examples within the scriptures with which we can draw on that seem to counter any inference to a rapture theory.

Now if I could, I would like to leave you with one though to ponder on, and that would be: In what way would a rapture, secret or otherwise, glorify the Lord?

 

[Brother Mike]

Sorry Brother Mike,

One resurrection of "those who are Christ's".

Those who are Christ's is a reference to ALL of the Church.

When?

At His Coming.

I don't recall taking a position above. I just explained how each side see's this key set of scripture.

However, since you brought it up.............

Paul said those "IN" Christ follow after this order to be resurrected. Jesus had already been resurrected as Paul mentioned.

Your saying that you don't believe Jesus was resurrected yet? You would have to believe that to read it the way your reading it. Each one following this order is future tense, so I am kind of concerned about you thinking this about Jesus here.

Or is it you don't like the verse above it saying............... those "IN" Christ follow in this order.................. In Christ is the subject JLB. Don't feel bad, I did horrible in English and simple sentence structure myself. I am glad this one is easy to understand.

 

[reba]

We getting away from what the OP has asked?

 

[JLB]

I don't recall taking a position above. I just explained how each side see's this key set of scripture.

However, since you brought it up.............

Paul said those "IN" Christ follow after this order to be resurrected. Jesus had already been resurrected as Paul mentioned.

Your saying that you don't believe Jesus was resurrected yet? You would have to believe that to read it the way your reading it. Each one following this order is future tense, so I am kind of concerned about you thinking this about Jesus here.

Or is it you don't like the verse above it saying............... those "IN" Christ follow in this order.................. In Christ is the subject JLB. Don't feel bad, I did horrible in English and simple sentence structure myself. I am glad this one is easy to understand.

Christ was the first fruits.

Afterward those who are His will be resurrected when He comes at the end of the age.

One resurrection for ALL the Church.

No amount of your "explaining" will change what Paul teaches us.

Blessings to all.

JLB