IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[Chopper]

Just taking this one scripture (This is the only "ONE" scripture that says Before the foundation something was chosen "Elect" meaning chosen.) It appears Paul is saying that There are Hand picked people God had Pre-Chosen before the Earth was created to be "IN CHRIST or IN HIM"

Being a former Baptist, I only wanted later in life to know what was right in the Word. The way God intended so It's made me change a lot of things from doctrine to what the Word actually does say. There are some shocking things in the Word that we are taught much different at church.

The problem with this One scripture is the Phrase "IN HIM" The Holy Spirit included that.

So, what does it take to Be under and In the Lord Jesus Christ?
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So all the prophets Killed at the foundation of the World gave the word people believed and their names written in the book of life "FROM" the foundation of the World.

Paul said someone has to preach and someone has to confess the Lord Jesus. The only way to get the faith to be saved is by the Power of the Word preached that caused faith to believe.

The father draws us by the Word of God, Nobody comes to the father unless he draws them first (Jesus said)
There is no special drawing outside of the Spoken word.

So choosing us in HIM......... before the foundation.................................

Did Paul mean them personally? Or did Paul mean God had planed to give it all to his son so that nothing Happens that does not Happen through Jesus?

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1) Just the people God picked to be saved and only those get saved. Which counters so many scriptures about our part to believe and receive.

2) All things go through the Lord Jesus Whom God forordained before the foundation of the World (Jesus said give me the same glory I once had before the foundation of the world) And God planed for Us to be in Jesus everyone on the planet that will believe. That itself is an election for the whole planet of those that will believe. A plan in place.

It has to be one of the two Chopper. There can't just be special picked ones before the foundation of the World otherwise anyone else that make Jesus Lord can't be "IN HIM" also. It has to be God's plan to put everything under the subjection of his son before he created the Earth.

And when the smoke clears.................................... It's just going to be US and Him anyway in the End.

There would have to be more "BEFORE" the foundation of the World scriptures but Paul told us how to be saved and gave just gave that one for those "IN HIM" I just can't take that one scripture and make a good case here for some election, not when we Know Jesus had been given some authority and power before the Earth was created and the Fathers plan was to give it all to his son and for his son. Nothing was made that was not made through Jesus and for Jesus (Col)

So it seems to me we have to get the Word out and People have to believe on that word.

Blessings............

Mike.

Good info. Mike. My thinking on the "elect" is as follows; God has always had a remnant of believers, always. The Eph. 1:4 are the elect or remnant of believers in the church or grace age. Now, each and everyone of those members of the remnant or elect must receive Jesus Christ as you have said. No one of the elect is automatically saved. All must profess Christ. The only thing God is doing before the foundation of the world is choosing who will be His remnant of believers and guaranteeing their Salvation because with God there is no failure. He chose and they WILL be saved.

 

[Chopper]

Hello Chopper. I posted on Matthew 24:40-44 and on why I don't think it has anything to do with a rapture. This is what I find to be true, that is my opinion, on Matthew 24:30-36.
The key verse is Matthew 24:34 where Jesus says "I tell you the truth, THIS generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." This is a verse of the Bible where many people read things into it. I have looked at this verse and I cannot fathom that Jesus was talking about something happening in the 20th century. He says THIS generation not that generation or the generation alive then. Why would Jesus tell his disciples THIS generation and not mean it. Talk about confusion. But that leaves verses 30-33 - when did this happen. I truly believe that when Jesus says "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. In order to see what is going on here one must realize first that Matthew 24:1:29 is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, after witch Jesus will come on the clouds in judgment. Coming on the clouds is a metaphor for judgment and it is used that way throughout the Bible, OT and NT. So, in my humble opinion, Jesus is talking about judgment on Rome for the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. I do not believe Jesus is talking about a rapture in some future, otherwise He would not have said that these things MUST happen before THIS generation has passed.
Tell me what you think.

Oh boy, I love you guys!!!!!! hmmm you have a very valid point! Boy I thought this was going to be a rather easy project to gather all the facts, change some thinking and wa la we have something that will run on all fours. NOT!! I now see that we ALL have to regroup and think this thing out including myself. Right off the bat I agree with you so now I need to see if you are right, see if anyone can help, and go from there. Thank you for your post, I love it because it drives me to prayer and research.....Love you Brother.

 

[Eugene]

Being a pre trib person, I have to wonder how God would be able to keep his anointed and faithful on the Earth. We certainly are not mentioned anywhere doing anything in the tribulation period, just one angel that mentions the good news of Jesus (gospel) and 144,000 Jews having a seal on their head.

Those not qualified as the bride of Rev 4:2 & 6 caught up prior to the tribulation enter into great tribulation though they are protected.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Who are they? A great multitude.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

What is their reward compared to the bride that reign as kings and priests told us in Revelation 5:10? Those coming out of great tribulation are servants.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Blessings to you Brother Mike in Jesus' name.

 

[Free]

I tend to think that there will be no rapture, being that it is a relatively modern doctrine.

 

[Narwhalist]

Oh boy, I love you guys!!!!!! hmmm you have a very valid point! Boy I thought this was going to be a rather easy project to gather all the facts, change some thinking and wa la we have something that will run on all fours. NOT!! I now see that we ALL have to regroup and think this thing out including myself. Right off the bat I agree with you so now I need to see if you are right, see if anyone can help, and go from there. Thank you for your post, I love it because it drives me to prayer and research.....Love you Brother.

Here are other scriptures that some folks believe it refers to the Rapture - John 14:1-3, Acts 1:9-11, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 but after reading these verses I believe it is talking about the coming of Jesus, not the rapture. Also Philippians 3:20-21 talks about the believers in heaven after Jesus' 2nd coming and 2 Thessalonians 1-12 is talking about the final judgment. None of these speak of a rapture of any kind, just the coming of our Lord. Also Revelation 1:7 "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the people of earth will mourn because of him," is another verse of judgment. Now keep in mind that this is just a possible interpretation of Revelation and the reason I believe this is not talking about the future of John is because of the previous verse Revelations 1:1 which states MUST SOON take place and Revelations 1:3 which states BECAUSE THE TIME IS NEAR. So however I interpret verses in Revelations I have to keep that in mind.

 

[Narwhalist]

I tend to think that there will be no rapture, being that it is a relatively modern doctrine.

I agree with you Free

 

[Chopper]

Here are other scriptures that some folks believe it refers to the Rapture - John 14:1-3, Acts 1:9-11, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 but after reading these verses I believe it is talking about the coming of Jesus, not the rapture. Also Philippians 3:20-21 talks about the believers in heaven after Jesus' 2nd coming and 2 Thessalonians 1-12 is talking about the final judgment. None of these speak of a rapture of any kind, just the coming of our Lord. Also Revelation 1:7 "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the people of earth will mourn because of him," is another verse of judgment. Now keep in mind that this is just a possible interpretation of Revelation and the reason I believe this is not talking about the future of John is because of the previous verse Revelations 1:1 which states MUST SOON take place and Revelations 1:3 which states BECAUSE THE TIME IS NEAR. So however I interpret verses in Revelations I have to keep that in mind.

Thank you, all these thoughts are very valuable.

 

[Chopper]

I agree with you Free

Oh my, a new thought, worth its weight in gold, thank you. It's possible?

 

[Chopper]

Those not qualified as the bride of Rev 4:2 & 6 caught up prior to the tribulation enter into great tribulation though they are protected.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Who are they? A great multitude.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

What is their reward compared to the bride that reign as kings and priests told us in Revelation 5:10? Those coming out of great tribulation are servants.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Blessings to you Brother Mike in Jesus' name.

Would you please expand on your first paragraph? "those not qualified.............. I'm not sure of what you are seeing.

 

[Chopper]

Those not qualified as the bride of Rev 4:2 & 6 caught up prior to the tribulation enter into great tribulation though they are protected.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Who are they? A great multitude.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

What is their reward compared to the bride that reign as kings and priests told us in Revelation 5:10? Those coming out of great tribulation are servants.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Blessings to you Brother Mike in Jesus' name.

Just taking this one scripture (This is the only "ONE" scripture that says Before the foundation something was chosen "Elect" meaning chosen.) It appears Paul is saying that There are Hand picked people God had Pre-Chosen before the Earth was created to be "IN CHRIST or IN HIM"

Being a former Baptist, I only wanted later in life to know what was right in the Word. The way God intended so It's made me change a lot of things from doctrine to what the Word actually does say. There are some shocking things in the Word that we are taught much different at church.

The problem with this One scripture is the Phrase "IN HIM" The Holy Spirit included that.

So, what does it take to Be under and In the Lord Jesus Christ?
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So all the prophets Killed at the foundation of the World gave the word people believed and their names written in the book of life "FROM" the foundation of the World.

Paul said someone has to preach and someone has to confess the Lord Jesus. The only way to get the faith to be saved is by the Power of the Word preached that caused faith to believe.

The father draws us by the Word of God, Nobody comes to the father unless he draws them first (Jesus said)
There is no special drawing outside of the Spoken word.

So choosing us in HIM......... before the foundation.................................

Did Paul mean them personally? Or did Paul mean God had planed to give it all to his son so that nothing Happens that does not Happen through Jesus?

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1) Just the people God picked to be saved and only those get saved. Which counters so many scriptures about our part to believe and receive.

2) All things go through the Lord Jesus Whom God forordained before the foundation of the World (Jesus said give me the same glory I once had before the foundation of the world) And God planed for Us to be in Jesus everyone on the planet that will believe. That itself is an election for the whole planet of those that will believe. A plan in place.

It has to be one of the two Chopper. There can't just be special picked ones before the foundation of the World otherwise anyone else that make Jesus Lord can't be "IN HIM" also. It has to be God's plan to put everything under the subjection of his son before he created the Earth.

And when the smoke clears.................................... It's just going to be US and Him anyway in the End.

There would have to be more "BEFORE" the foundation of the World scriptures but Paul told us how to be saved and gave just gave that one for those "IN HIM" I just can't take that one scripture and make a good case here for some election, not when we Know Jesus had been given some authority and power before the Earth was created and the Fathers plan was to give it all to his son and for his son. Nothing was made that was not made through Jesus and for Jesus (Col)

So it seems to me we have to get the Word out and People have to believe on that word.

Blessings............

Mike.

Those not qualified as the bride of Rev 4:2 & 6 caught up prior to the tribulation enter into great tribulation though they are protected.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Who are they? A great multitude.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

What is their reward compared to the bride that reign as kings and priests told us in Revelation 5:10? Those coming out of great tribulation are servants.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Blessings to you Brother Mike in Jesus' name.

Eugene, I didn't realize that you are the moderator with Reba on this thread. I thought it was Edward. I'm in great hope that you will make sure that this thread moves smoothly and not become a debate forum. Especially when we get to the pre, mid, post trib.

 

[Free]

Oh my, a new thought, worth its weight in gold, thank you. It's possible?

Yes, it is quite possible that all the verses being read as supporting a rapture are actually having the idea of the rapture read into them.

 

[Brother Mike]

I tend to think that there will be no rapture, being that it is a relatively modern doctrine.

Shepherd of Hermas 150AD or earlier.
"

You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly

."

I suppose 150AD is what you call modern.

Understand this.................. It don't matter how old it is, wrong will always be wrong no matter the age. I suppose we should go back to Bleeding Germs out of people again since it's much older than modern medicine.

amazing.

Mike.

 

[Narwhalist]

Eugene, I didn't realize that you are the moderator with Reba on this thread. I thought it was Edward. I'm in great hope that you will make sure that this thread moves smoothly and not become a debate forum. Especially when we get to the pre, mid, post trib.

Hello again Chopper. If we come to an agreement in which we realize there is not a rapture, what becomes of the tribulation. Are we interpreting correctly what the Bible is saying when it's referring to a tribulation. Hmmm. Food for though. If there isn't a rapture, then the idea of pre, mid or post-trib becomes moot. So what is the tribulation the Bible is talking about. Could it be different tribulations? Could the Bible be talking about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple! How about the persecution of Christians during the time of Nero? That was a tribulation. We need to examine wherever the Bible mentions a tribulation, what is going on at the time. Just a thought.

 

[Free]

Shepherd of Hermas 150AD or earlier.
"."

I suppose 150AD is what you call modern.

Understand this.................. It don't matter how old it is, wrong will always be wrong no matter the age. I suppose we should go back to Bleeding Germs out of people again since it's much older than modern medicine.

amazing.

Mike.

What you quoted says nothing about a rapture.

 

[Chopper]

Oh boy, I love you guys!!!!!! hmmm you have a very valid point! Boy I thought this was going to be a rather easy project to gather all the facts, change some thinking and wa la we have something that will run on all fours. NOT!! I now see that we ALL have to regroup and think this thing out including myself. Right off the bat I agree with you so now I need to see if you are right, see if anyone can help, and go from there. Thank you for your post, I love it because it drives me to prayer and research.....Love you Brother.

Narwhalist, I checked out Mt. 24 and you are right. Jesus was speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem, and warnings to prepare for His second coming. Mk. 13:1-37 & Lu. 21:5-36.

 

[Brother Mike]

Good info. Mike. My thinking on the "elect" is as follows; God has always had a remnant of believers, always. The Eph. 1:4 are the elect or remnant of believers in the church or grace age. Now, each and everyone of those members of the remnant or elect must receive Jesus Christ as you have said. No one of the elect is automatically saved. All must profess Christ. The only thing God is doing before the foundation of the world is choosing who will be His remnant of believers and guaranteeing their Salvation because with God there is no failure. He chose and they WILL be saved.

By promise....... God just Chooses 144,000 Jewish Men of great virtue to do his Work during Tribulation. This is His elect people as mentioned in Romans, and His promise to them.

God so loved the World that He gave his only son, so He loved all us and choose everyone He created being fearfully and wonderfully made that He made a way out if we choose. Those that accept His Election of choice through faith in Christ Jesus will be saved.

Chopper.......... I am so Glad you are in a place to examine scriptures and change because it's scripture. Only the Holy Spirit can get someone to do that so I know He is working on you and with you. Mike can't change your mind on anything because I don't have the power to reach the heart.

There is more to this Election thing though but it goes way deep.

Blessings MIKE>

 

[Chopper]

Hello again Chopper. If we come to an agreement in which we realize there is not a rapture, what becomes of the tribulation. Are we interpreting correctly what the Bible is saying when it's referring to a tribulation. Hmmm. Food for though. If there isn't a rapture, then the idea of pre, mid or post-trib becomes moot. So what is the tribulation the Bible is talking about. Could it be different tribulations? Could the Bible be talking about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple! How about the persecution of Christians during the time of Nero? That was a tribulation. We need to examine wherever the Bible mentions a tribulation, what is going on at the time. Just a thought.

Yep, I've never thought of it that way but sure needs to be thought out.

 

[Brother Mike]

What you quoted says nothing about a rapture.

It does not exactly say "RAPTURE" but it does give the idea of escape from tribulation. It's the oldest document known about it. The most early with the rapture before tribulation was in 306AD.

Ephraem of Nisibis:

See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

I can present a whole lot better case though as He is quoting Amos 5:18 here and mixing what Paul said.

Age does not determine if something is right though, if the Church is taken "BEFORE" the time of trouble then is should be found in scriptures.

You will find there are only 4 Key scriptures and how both sides look at them determine everything. How you translate Apostasia for example puts things in a post or pre trib setting.

Apostasia just means to depart from a previous standing. It's really how you want to read these key verses and who the restrainer is.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

It does not exactly say "RAPTURE" but it does give the idea of escape from tribulation. It's the oldest document known about it. The most early with the rapture before tribulation was in 306AD.

Ephraem of Nisibis:



I can present a whole lot better case though as He is quoting Amos 5:18 here and mixing what Paul said.

Age does not determine if something is right though, if the Church is taken "BEFORE" the time of trouble then is should be found in scriptures.

You will find there are only 4 Key scriptures and how both sides look at them determine everything. How you translate Apostasia for example puts things in a post or pre trib setting.

Apostasia just means to depart from a previous standing. It's really how you want to read these key verses and who the restrainer is.

Mike.

Yes.

Just as inthe day of Noah.

Noah was protected by obeying what God instructed Him to do.

 

[JLB]

Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. 45"Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Matthew 24:44-45