IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[Chopper]

Thank you for your research and post. We have the Bride of the Christ in both the OT and NT. Some theologians see only the "elect" making up the Bride. Those who God determined before the foundation of the earth starting with Abraham, who He called out of all humanity at that time, the Prophets and the Disciples in the NT as well as others of God's choice. They all make up the Bride. Of course others will inhabit the new heavens & earth who come to the Faith through the "general call of rhe Gospel".

 

[Eugene]

The bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel just as the old testament scriptures say.

And yet the greatest among men will not have that place?

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist.

Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. John proclaims himself as the friend of the bridegroom; not the bride.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Act 15:14 God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Yup. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

This is Mount Sion. Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Dan00]

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
(Mat 24:40-44)


And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things (ALL, means ALL He mentioned above) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
(Luk 21:34-36)

Rev_3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev_3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The churches are made up of different bodies and Jesus addressed the 7 located in Asia Minor (Turkey) He mentioned "ONE" being taken, one left so it's just not the Church but each person is examined if they are doing what they are suppose to be doing when He does come. (Matt 24, Luke 21)

The promise with 3 Scripture wittiness (I gave 3 places where it says this) leaving out what Paul said that we do Escape God's wrath to come, all indication is that those doing what God had called them to do faithfully will escape what is about to come on the whole earth.

As for being saved, Jesus or any other mention was given that a person not faithful as a believe would not get to be saved or have to go to hell. It just says they will have to face what is to come on the whole world.

I am taking a Pre-Trib position.

A Post trib position means of course we hang out while God trashes the planet, but the position of our standing with the Lord should not change as we should all obey and serve him.

I don't consider a Preterist view valid enough to mention. They put clear events as Hyperbole and make believe which is not acceptable. The stars will vanish and that is yet to happen.

Mike.

>>>A Post trib position means of course we hang out while God trashes the planet<<<

Mike, I have never heard that before. Why would God trash the planet, when his plan is to destroy those who destroy the earth?

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." (Rev 11:18)

>>>The stars will vanish and that is yet to happen.<<<

Where can I find that in the scripture?

Also, where does the rapture fit into this passage?

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:28-29)

 

[Randy]

See 1 Thessalonians 4.16-18.

Blessings.

1 Thessalonians 4.16-18 would be consistent with the gathering of all saints from the ends of the heavens at the 2nd coming. (The 1st Resurrection) Not meaning a pretrib rapture. Rev 16:15 is a coming of the Lord (The last day)

 

[Randy]

This thread is all about forgetting our preconceived idea's about who makes up a local church, and who or when will we go to be with our Lord for all eternity. We must learn from each other to form a new doctrine of end times that makes Biblical sense instead of twisting Scripture to meet our position.

Mike mentioned "lukewarm" Christians making up a local church. Who are they? Are they going to make it?

I don't hold to a pretrib rapture. I do hold to the 2nd coming of the Lord and the resurrection of the righteous on the last day. - the 1st Resurrection. In Rev the children are described as those who obey Gods commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Randy

 

[Chopper]

I don't hold to a pretrib rapture. I do hold to the 2nd coming of the Lord and the resurrection of the righteous on the last day. - the 1st Resurrection. In Rev the children are described as those who obey Gods commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Randy

Good for you Randy! The majority of those responding to my thread believe as you and I do, that there is no pretrib rapture. Thank you for weighing in.

 

[Destructus86]

My question is...if Matthew 24 teaches a future event and rapture. Then where in the Bible does it talk about the destruction of the Temple and the seige and destruction of Jerusalem along with the mass persecution of Christians like has never been known since?

 

[Chopper]

My question is...if Matthew 24 teaches a future event and rapture. Then where in the Bible does it talk about the destruction of the Temple and the seige and destruction of Jerusalem along with the mass persecution of Christians like has never been known since?

I know that this is a long thread, but If you go through it, you will find your answer and a lot more good info.

 

[Destructus86]

thanks!

 

[Randy]

This thread is all about forgetting our preconceived idea's about who makes up a local church, and who or when will we go to be with our Lord for all eternity. We must learn from each other to form a new doctrine of end times that makes Biblical sense instead of twisting Scripture to meet our position.

Mike mentioned "lukewarm" Christians making up a local church. Who are they? Are they going to make it?

You asked if there was a pretrib rapture - No

Will there be christians on the earth at the 2nd coming - Yes

Jesus will gather His own from the ends of the heavens on that last day which includes those who are alive on earth. Such a gathering does not speak to me of a pretrib gathering. The dead in Christ rise first (1st Res) as they are coming back with the Lord as in a bodily resurrection. Those left alive are caught up and clothed with their new bodies. (immortality) Our place at that time will be on the earth with the Lord. Until that last day Rev 16:15 Jesus will remain at the right hand of God. Psalm 110:1

Jesus searches the hearts and minds of the people - He alone can know who is luke warm. We don't have the Lords eyes.

Randy

 

[Deborah13]

My question is...if Matthew 24 teaches a future event and rapture. Then where in the Bible does it talk about the destruction of the Temple and the seige and destruction of Jerusalem along with the mass persecution of Christians like has never been known since?

Everyone that I know of, Bible scholars, etc. believe all of the Bible except Revelation was written before AD70.
Seeing that there is only one man that said Revelation was written after 70AD and then he didn't know that first hand, he heard it in his youth that it was written later than 70AD, I personally believe it was also written before 70AD.
Although some of it really looks like 70AD.

 

[JLB]

My question is...if Matthew 24 teaches a future event and rapture. Then where in the Bible does it talk about the destruction of the Temple and the seige and destruction of Jerusalem along with the mass persecution of Christians like has never been known since?

Matthew 24

 

[JLB]

Everyone that I know of, Bible scholars, etc. believe all of the Bible except Revelation was written before AD70.
Seeing that there is only one man that said Revelation was written after 70AD and then he didn't know that first hand, he heard it in his youth that it was written later than 70AD, I personally believe it was also written before 70AD.
Although some of it really looks like 70AD.

Do you believe this occurred in 70 AD?

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.
Revelation 21:22-23

or this

3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. Revelation 22:3-5

 

[Deborah13]

I believe those verses are talking about the New Jerusalem. Which I think exists now in some form and will be made manifest in the future.

 

[Destructus86]

I used to believe in a rapture. But when I started to read the scriptures by keeping historical and especially cultural context in mind...the belief crumbled. It became clear to me I was wrong and had to re-examine everything. In the past I was trying to shoehorn verses into modern day perspectives and events.

But most importantly...understanding the context historically and culturally really opened my eyes to what the Bible was really saying. A literalist view of the bible is such a dangerous and nearly heretical way of viewing scripture.

 

[Deborah13]

I used to believe in a rapture. But when I started to read the scriptures by keeping historical and especially cultural context in mind...the belief crumbled. It became clear to me I was wrong and had to re-examine everything. In the past I was trying to shoehorn verses into modern day perspectives and events.

But most importantly...understanding the context historically and culturally really opened my eyes to what the Bible was really saying. A literalist view of the bible is such a dangerous and nearly heretical way of viewing scripture.

That's the same thing that I had to do. Not that I understand it all even now and I'm not sure we even can. Our faith is not based on events of the future but in our first love, the living Lord.

 

[JLB]

I believe those verses are talking about the New Jerusalem. Which I think exists now in some form and will be made manifest in the future.

Amen.

Future.

 

[JLB]

I used to believe in a rapture. But when I started to read the scriptures by keeping historical and especially cultural context in mind...the belief crumbled. It became clear to me I was wrong and had to re-examine everything. In the past I was trying to shoehorn verses into modern day perspectives and events.

But most importantly...understanding the context historically and culturally really opened my eyes to what the Bible was really saying. A literalist view of the bible is such a dangerous and nearly heretical way of viewing scripture.

Did Jesus literally come in the flesh to die for our sins?

Unless you take this literally, you are lost.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Hebrews 9:28

His Second Coming is also to be taken literally.

Both are described in this verse.

Are we to believe that His First appearing is literal and His second Coming is figurative?

Is that what you would gas us believe?

JLB

 

[Randy]

Everyone that I know of, Bible scholars, etc. believe all of the Bible except Revelation was written before AD70.
Seeing that there is only one man that said Revelation was written after 70AD and then he didn't know that first hand, he heard it in his youth that it was written later than 70AD, I personally believe it was also written before 70AD.
Although some of it really looks like 70AD.

I don't know when it was written but I thought most scholars went with a late 1st century date around AD96. I am not a expert in dating the book but you can google the question.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't know when it was written but I thought most scholars went with a late 1st century date around AD96. I am not a expert in dating the book but you can google the question.

That wasn't a question just some info.
Irenaeus is the one who said it was written at this later date. There wasn't anyone else that I know of that said that. All others were quoting him. He said in his youth he listened to Polycarp preach and heard Polycarp say that. Irenaeus also said that Jesus was almost 50 yrs. old when he died. Why? Because of the scripture where the Pharisees say to Jesus that He isn't yet 50, so how could He have seen Abraham.