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Is there anywhere in the Bible that Jesus Freely gave material needs to the poor?

WIP said:
Just a thought. I don't think the point Jesus was making is really directed at exposing the good works or acts of charity. I believe His message is about where one's heart is. Sharing the fact that we've done good works or acts of charity is not the issue unless or until we are doing so to bring attention and glory to ourselves. That is when it becomes a problem. That's why I believe the text may seem to contradict when it really doesn't. The same is true with prayer. Jesus said to do it in secret yet, He prayed in public as well as secret. If we are praying in public or doing good works for the purpose of drawing attention to ourselves as in bragging rights then we are not doing so to the glory of God and it is wrong. However, if we are doing so to bring glory to God by demonstrating and sharing the light and love of Jesus then we are doing it for the right reason.

He picked on the Pharisees because they were arrogant and adamant about broadcasting their good deeds, prayer, and fasting and doing so not to the glory of God but to their own glory. This is well noted in the scriptures as they did not see themselves as the sinners they truly were but only saw others as sinners. How many times did they accuse or address Jesus as associating with sinners? They obviously didn't count themselves among the sinners and this is why Jesus said he didn't come for those who are well but the sick. He meant them too but they didn't see it or refused to see it.

Just my :twocents
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Thanks WIP. That's the point I was making about Matt 6:2 (ESV) that he saw and taught against a specific situation in the synagogues: 'When you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues'.

R C H Lenski in his commentary on Matt 6:2 stated,

'Diligent research fails to verify the view that the Pharisees used trumpets to call the poor together and to assemble a crowd to witness their almsgiving. Nor would trumpets be used in a synagogue. This indicates that "do not start trumpeting" is figurative; we would say, "do not advertise." Yet "in the synagogues and in the streets" is quite literal; the Pharisees chose public places to show off their charities. Their delight was "to be glorified by men"; that God might be glorified was not their concern.

The example of the Pharisees is bold and strong, yet as such it includes every hypocrisy of this kind down to the secret desire to have our good deeds praised by men for our own sakes. Luther points out that but few respond when we say that God and his angels will be pleased and that God will reward a hundredfold; and that many grow slack when men ignore and show ingratitude' (Lenski 1943:256-257).

In Christ,
Oz

Works consulted
Lenski, R C H 1943. Commentary on the New Testament: The Interpretation of St. Matthew's Gospel. Peabody, Mass: Hendrickson Publishers (assigned 1961 to Augsburg Publishing House).
 
OzSpen said:
That's the point I was making about Matt 6:2 (ESV) that he saw and taught against a specific situation in the synagogues: 'When you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues'.
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Hi Ozspen. Think about the logic you are using here. You say the teaching against gaining the praise of men was only for synagogues? Then, charity giving for the sake of praises of men outside the synagogue would be okay in your understanding? No, the subject of the teaching is not synagogues. The subject is public charity giving.

Also when you use the word "specific" and "synagogue" you still give the impression that Jesus was not giving instructions to his disciples on how to be his disciples. You started out by suggesting Jesus was merely commenting on a problem specific to the pharisees and it sounds like you are continuing with that reasoning despite the fact that Jesus was clearly talking to his disciples and teaching them, even to the point of making it a command.

OzSpen said:
Yet "in the synagogues and in the streets" is quite literal; the Pharisees chose public places to show off their charities.
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Your own commentary disagrees with your assessment that this was something "specific to the synagogues". I believe this is evidence that there is a problem with your ability to reason on this particular issue. I suspect it's because, as you've said earlier, you do offer charity, and you do want to be able to talk about that with a clear conscience but if you were to take Jesus at his word, then you could no longer talk about your personal charity giving, in a public place like this forum, with a clear conscience.

Again, this is nothing personal against you, but rather an issue of general motivations. I would give this same response to anyone making these kind of arguments. I've seen this kind of thing in many Christians, including myself. Jesus talked about it, too. His teachings challenge us to confront all of our badness, including the desire for respectability and that is what these teachings about secret disciplines are aimed at. Jesus could see, as humans, we have a problem in this area and his solution for dealing with the problem is to avoid indulging in the behavior altogether. He compared obedience to his teachings like falling on a rock and being broken (Lk 20:17-18) and that's certainly what it feels like at times. But the brokenness is necessary so that God can put us back together again into a new creature living by the new values of his Kingdom.

Keep your charity secret. Keep your fasting secret. Keep your prayers to God secret. This is the master's solution to the problem of "glory of men", pride, and respectability. When we come in with all our various explanations for why we don't need to do it the way Jesus said to do it, then all we're really doing is claiming that we know better than Jesus, or fulfilling the prophecy, "They draw near to me with their lips, but their heart is far from me".
 
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Gary said:
How do you reconcile your belief's with this?

James 2
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

1 John 3
17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

.
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Gary forgive me for butting in but these scriptures are told for us to do.
The peole who followed Jesus were hungry for Him and the words he spoke. Most of them not all went where ever Jesus went because they did not want to be with out Him. The people would walk for miles and miles just to hear Him. They stood in the hot sun to listen to Him, for there was no confi seats or mango stands along the way. lol

I only said this because 4aFaithfulone is going in one direction and you in another direction and you two are not going to see eye to eye on this because of it.....not saying any one is wrong....just watching you two go back and fourth on two different topics in a way....
 
Gary said:
Is this recorded in scripture or is it something you heard?




There's a reason for that.
.
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Gary,
It's called reading with understanding or another words digging into the scriptures and the writings of the times.
This way you get a feel for what you are reading. I don't have the books here with me where I am at. I have to big bibles with writings and maps and stuff diging into the times and word meanings and such. I have not had them here for some time. Karl should know what I am talking about.

I was not busting your chops, and the words in the post were NOT like hey gary, like man chill out dude.....
I was simply painting the picture on both sides......yours and hers......
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
Gary,
It's called reading with understanding or another words digging into the scriptures and the writings of the times.
This way you get a feel for what you are reading. I don't have the books here with me where I am at. I have to big bibles with writings and maps and stuff diging into the times and word meanings and such. I have not had them here for some time. Karl should know what I am talking about.

I was not busting your chops, and the words in the post were NOT like hey gary, like man chill out dude.....
I was simply painting the picture on both sides......yours and hers......
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Okay.
 
Good point, Obadiah.

Fish Catcher Jim said:
The peole who followed Jesus were hungry for Him and the words he spoke. Most of them not all went where ever Jesus went because they did not want to be with out Him. The people would walk for miles and miles just to hear Him. They stood in the hot sun to listen to Him, for there was no confi seats or mango stands along the way.
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Although Jim was not specifically responding to my post, I think his point here does relate to what I was sharing about obedience to Jesus regarding secret charity, because I think it relates to motivations.

Jesus only fed the thousands after they'd spent the day listening to him. Those who left early missed the meal, both physically and spiritually *nerdy snort-laugh*.

At the beginning of Mt 5, Jesus looked out on the multitude waiting to hear from him, and then he climbed a mountain. It goes on to say that when he was set, his disciples came to him and then he taught them. The implication here is that only those who put in the effort to climb the mountain were worthy to be his disciples, while those who felt it was too much work were still just part of "the multitude" down below.

How much value to do we really place on the teachings of Jesus? Are we ready to climb a mountain, or would we come up with some reason for how the gospel is free and requires no effort on our part?

Interpretation is a necessary part of wisdom and discernment. We need to look carefully at what Jesus said so we can understand the lessons. However, interpretation is not absolute. "Issues of the heart" do not override basic, fundamental lessons. For example, lets say someone has a problem with alcohol. Drinking alcohol is not a sin in itself, but this person has a problem with moderation and drinks too much too often. But when his friends try to talk to him about it, he says things like, "Jesus made barrels full of wine for a party" and "don't you judge me" and "it's an issue of the heart how much I drink, the Bible says so".

This person has his interpretations. Jesus really did make barrels of wine. We really do need to be careful how we judge, and "issues of the heart" really are relevant in some circumstances, but a person with discernment can see there is a problem with how this person is interpreting these various concepts. It's clear from the context that his interpretations are skewed, but he cannot see it because he has a personal investment in NOT seeing it. He wants a convenient reason to continue drinking the way he wants to drink with no accountability.

But there are other problems ; spiritual problems which are even worse than physical addictions, though these problems involve the same kind of deliberate blindness to keep them going. Greed, pride, respectability, hypocrisy, fear, self righteousness; these are issues which Jesus preached about over and over again.

We won't just naturally confront these problems. Even when the problems are pointed out, we will make excuses, dodge, hide or run away. The heart is deceitful above all things, and this is precisely why Jesus gave commands. It's not about "following a law" or "salvation through works". It's an act of mercy. Following Jesus' commands is about forcing us to break through all the various spiritual addictions we have. It gives us a reason to see past the blindness.

When a person is drowning and you try to save them, they can sometimes be so caught up in their personal dilemma that they can't recognize what's happening around them, even as their struggling hampers the rescuers' attempt to save their life. So the rescuer throws a punch and knocks the person out. Jesus' commands are like that. Sometimes they are shocking in their extremity; we can't believe Jesus really meant we should take this or that teaching literally, but when we just take the hit and accept that maybe Jesus really did mean what he said, even if it is so completely radical, then he can save us from drowning.

If we have a problem with pride, then we will struggle to see the value in a teaching meant to break our pride. We will argue and fight over an interpretation which is close, but juuuuust misses actually making us accountable. But if our faith really is in Jesus; if we really believe that Jesus knew what he was talking about; if we really trust that he wants what is best for us, then we'll stop all the arguing and do what he said just because he said to do it. We will follow the commands of the master because he is the master.

MT 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

MT 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

MT 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

MT 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

He said don't do it. How much faith do we really have in Jesus' wisdom.
 
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