is there trinity or not?

[sanoma6]

Are there three different persons (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit) in God ?
God is a Spirit (John 4,24) but we are spirit, soul and body (1 Thessalonians 5,23). God is also Holy (Psalm 22,3 and 1 Peter 1,16) so God is nobody but the Holy Spirit seeing that He is a Spirit (John 4,24).
God (the Holy Spirit) is also called the Father (1 Corinthians 15,24 and Ephesians 1,17) because He is considered as the Father of all (Deuteronomy 32,6). The Father is therefore also the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit does not exist, God Himself can not exist (John 6,63 and Habakkuk 2,19). We can exist or live thanks to the Spirit God put in our body (Job 33,4 and Luke 8,52-55 and John 19,30 and Matthew 27,50)as well, God Himself live or exist thanks to His Spirit that is the Holy Spirit (Mark 13,11). We can also look at 1 Corinthians 2,10-11 and 2 Corinthians 3,17-18 which reveals that the Lord is the Holy Spirit.
God and Satan are names that are used to name two spirits: one of them is Holy that is the reason why we have the expression Holy Spirit. Let us consider the expressions “his Holy Spirit†(1 Thessalonians 4,8), “my Holy name†(Ezekiel 36,21), “The habitation of your Holiness†(Isaiah 63,15) etc. Everything of God is Holy and God is a Spirit (John 4,24) that is why we have the expression “Holy Spiritâ€. For instance, Saul says: “… spoke the Holy Spirit by Isaiah the prophet unto our fathers.†(Acts 28,25).
God, our Father who is also known as the Holy Spirit, has a spiritual body. This spiritual body is invisible (Colossians 1,15). One day, the Holy Spirit that is the Father, made himself a natural body within a virgin woman’s womb then put himself into this natural body so he can exist or live as the person called Jesus. That is the reason why Jesus is called the Son of God or the Son of the Highest (Luke 1,31-35 and Colossians 2,9). That is also the reason why, it is said that Jesus made the Father to become visible (John 14,9 and 2 Corinthians 4,4). Isaiah also prophesied that Jesus would be a sanctuary (Isaiah 8,14) which means that the natural body of Jesus would be a habitation of God that is the Holy Spirit (John 2,19-21 and 2 Corinthians 5,19); just like we, Christians (1 Corinthians 6,19). And in John 6,57 Jesus says: “ … I live by the Father…â€. And we should know that it is because God live only in holy places (Isaiah 57,15) that the natural body of Jesus had to be conceived differently so it would be a holy thing (Luke 1,34-35).
John was considered to be Elijah because he lived with the spirit and power of Elijah (Matthew 11,13-14 and Luke 1,17). As well, Jesus is considered to be God, the Father (Isaiah 9,5 and John 14,7) because he had in him all the fullness of the Holy Spirit that is the Father (John 3,34 and 2 Corinthians 5,19).
The Holy Spirit was fully in Jesus and that made him to be God in person (1 John 5,20). As well, it is because the Father is the Holy Spirit that he is God on contrary to Satan who is an unclean spirit (Mark 3,22-23 and Mark 3,29-30).
God gives not the Holy Spirit by measure unto Jesus (John 3,34 and Acts 10,38 and Matthew 12,28) that means God gives the fullness of his Holy Spirit unto Jesus, but we are given that Spirit by measure (Hebrews 2,4 and 1 John 4,13 and Romans 12,3). And Saul says about Jesus: “For in him dwells all the fullness of the Deity bodily†(Colossians 2,9). Jesus himself says (about the Holy Spirit that was in Him): “Believe you not that I am in the Father and the Father in me? “ (John 14,10). Also, according to Romans 8,9-10 the Spirit of God is also that of Jesus-Christ and it is Christ in person.
Saul also tell us that there is only one God and that only God is the Father (1 Corinthians 8,6).
So God, the Father and his Son (Jesus in a natural body) exist and live by the same Spirit that is the Holy Spirit. As they have the same Spirit, they are not different but the same person. Jesus is also God, the Father (John 10,30).
Though Jesus is the Father (John 14,7 and Isaiah 9,5) he said the Father is greater than him (John 14,28) because he made himself a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2,6-7) by existing like a man (Philippians 2,6-8) that means by putting his Spirit in a natural body; knowing that he was in the form of God before that (Philippians 2,5-6). Being in the form of God means he was a Spirit (John 4,24) that is the Holy Spirit. Demons were aware of that (Mark 1,23-24; Mark 3,11). Simon Peter was also aware of that but this had to be revealed to him before (Matthew 16,16-17).
The Father and his Son having different forms but the same Spirit (the Holy Spirit) could exist at the same time (John 12,28) because God is omnipresent (Ephesians 4,6 and Jeremiah 23,24 and Psalm 139,7-12 and 2 Corinthians 6,16). Because God is omnipresent, Jesus could talk as if he himself was not the father (John 11,41). Jesus was behaving like that so he can hide his real identity (John 16,25-28 and John 13,3).
God , our Father, is also called the Heavenly Father (Luke 11,13) has a Spiritual body which is different from that of Jesus when he lived on earth like a man. This spiritual body is the form of the Spirit (the Holy Spirit). These verses confirm it:
- 1 Corinthians 15,35
- 1 John 3,2 (we shall be like God)
- Matthew 22,30 and Hebrews 1,14 (in the resurrection, we shall be as the angels of God who are also spirits)
- 1 Corinthians 15,42-45 and verse 49 (we shall be like the Father).
- 1 Corinthians 15,50-52 (we shall be changed).
So, if we can find a difference between the Father and the Son (who is nobody but the Father in an earthy body) what difference is there between the Father and the Holy Spirit?
God, the Father (1 Corinthians 8,6) is the Holy Spirit himself. The Son of the Father is the man created by the Father. Like any man, he had a spirit, a soul and a natural (earthy) body (1 Thessalonians 5,23). However, his Spirit was the Father himself that is the fullness of the Holy Spirit (John 3,34 and Colossians 2,9 and Colossians 1,19); that is the reason why the Son is God himself like John said: “1 John 5,20â€. Let us understand that this verse applies only to the Spirit of the Son for his flesh (earthy or natural body) and his blood are excluded from his Deity.
Because he put his Spirit (the Holy Spirit) in a natural body, Jesus made the father (the Holy Spirit) to become visible (John 14,9 and Colossians 1,15).
NB: When he was living on earth like a man, Jesus could not reveal to people he was God, our Father, because they could believe God is a man (John 10,30-33). Beeing a Spirit, God can not have a mother. So the expression “mother of God†applied to mary is not correct and appear to be an insult to the name of God or a blaspheme against the Holy Spirit (Mark 3,29). We should called Mary the mother of Jesus (as a man) like Saul said in Romans 1,3-4.
CONCLUSION
God, the Father is the Holy Spirit. The Son is the Father in an earthy body.

 

[John 8:32]

Nope.

 

[ivorhughjarse]

we understand math from our standpoint a genius gets it more than us but he knows that he doesn't know everything. We understand dimensions and the facts and the theories a professor of the subject could explain more but he will freely admit that he does not know everything. We know colour is there for a reason but not ultimately why we have the joy of colour. God made these concepts maybe us being dust we will never know more than God and be able there by figure Him out.

 

[Former Christian]

John 8:32

Nope.

Please be more specific. Do you mean there is no Trinity? Or do you mean you disagree with Sanoma6's understanding of Trinity?

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Trinity

If Jesus is God, and especially if Jesus is the Father, wouldn’t that mean that Mary is the Mother of God? Why should there an arbitrary distinction be put between God and Jesus as God, when in all practicality no such distinction exists in the minds of those who are determined to confuse God and Jesus Christ in regard to divinity?

What is the definition of divinity? If it’s related to the essence of the God who possesses divinity, and if Christ is God, shouldn’t those who are in Christ be considered to possess this divinity by virtue of being in Christ and partakers of the divine nature? Implying that in the end, the only thing God really loves is himself? Or is divinity an attribute in itself?

FC

 

[Free]

CONCLUSION
God, the Father is the Holy Spirit. The Son is the Father in an earthy body.

The conclusion should be that the doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that the Scriptures reveal about God, including all the passages you quoted.

 

[John Zain]

Are there three different persons (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit) in God ?

I believe that the answer to this depends on whether a person believes what Scripture
clearly says ... most especially that Jesus Christ is God, equal to Father God,
the Creator of all things, the Sustainer of all things now, the Giver of eternal life, etc.

Despite 70+ verses (would you like the references?) which affirm the above,
some "Bible-believing Christians" just cannot say the words, "I believe Jesus is God".
Why is this? I believe it's because they simply do not have this revelation.

Can a person be born-again (with the Holy Spirit residing in him/her teaching all things),
and not have this revelation when he/she reads the NT?

 

[elijah23]

I believe in one God who has three different “responsibilities,†that of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, just as a man can simultaneously be a husband, father, and son.

 

[Hitch]

YUP YUP YUP





http://www.the-highway.com/trinity_Haykin.html
​

 

[Sinthesis]

I believe in one God who has three different “responsibilities,†that of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, just as a man can simultaneously be a husband, father, and son.

I think that's called modelism?
The Trinity is ultimately just something to accept rather than comprehend.

 

[teddy trueblood]

“Are there three different persons (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit) in
God?â€

John Zain:

“I believe that the answer to this depends on whether a person believes what

Scripture clearly says ... most especially that Jesus Christ is Godâ€

Scripture clearly and repeatedly states that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah. It clearly and repeatedly (hundreds of times) states that YHWH (Jehovah/Yahweh) is God. But it never clearly nor repeatedly states that Jesus is God.

 

[Mike]

I think that's called modelism?
The Trinity is ultimately just something to accept rather than comprehend.

Both points are true.

And as Hank Hanegraaff says - While I can't "comprehend it", I can "apprehend it", because the Triune God is displayed throughout the whole of scripture. The non-trinitarian has to tune out scripture that has the Trinity woven through it, IMO.

Yes, Charlie Brown. There is the Trinity.

 

[proveallthings]

I think that's called modelism?
The Trinity is ultimately just something to accept rather than comprehend.

Amen to this statement. Mike's attempt to explain it here is so full of contradictions I wouldn't know where to begin. If you choose to believe in the trinity of the creeds, this statement has to be the only logical way.

 

[for_his_glory]

Trinity is simply Gods Spirit manifested in three separate entities as Father (Spirit), Jesus (same Spirit) and Holy Spirit (same Spirit)

Revealed in the Old Testament:
At creation - Genesis 1:1-3,26
In the personality of the Spirit - Isaiah 40:13; 48:16

By:
Divine angel - Judges 13:8-23
Personification of wisdom - Proverbs 8:22-31
Threefold Holy - Isaiah 6:3
Aaronic Benediction - Numbers 6:24-27

Revealed in the New Testament:
At Christ's baptism Matthew - 3:16, 17
In Christ's teaching - John 14:26; 15:26
Baptismal formula - Matthew 28:19
Apostolic benediction - 2Corinthians 13:14
Apostolic teaching Galatians 4:4-6

 

[Free]

Scripture clearly and repeatedly states that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah. It clearly and repeatedly (hundreds of times) states that YHWH (Jehovah/Yahweh) is God. But it never clearly nor repeatedly states that Jesus is God.

It all depends on what one means by "clearly," doesn't it? Something can be implied and yet still be stating something clearly. If by "clearly" you mean explicitly stated, then there are not many passages but some. If you include, as you ought, those which imply that Jesus is God, then there are many.

We need to be very careful to not turn such debates into who has more proof-texts than the other, as is so often done. The parts, the proof-texts, the individual passages, must not only be consistent with each other, they must also be coherent wit the larger themes of Scripture. At least one larger theme here, which is seen throughout the OT, is that of YHWH saying He will come and dwell among his people, that He and He alone is their savior.

Tit 1:3 and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;
Tit 1:4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Tit 2:10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Tit 2:12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: (ESV)

 

[Free]

Trinity is simply Gods Spirit manifested in three separate entities as Father (Spirit), Jesus (same Spirit) and Holy Spirit (same Spirit)

It may just be your wording but this sounds like modalism, not trinitarianism.

 

[proveallthings]

Mike's attempt to explain it here

Oops! I originally thought it was Mike that started this thread. My bad. I should have said sanoma6's attempt...

 

[smaller]

Trinity

If Jesus is God, and especially if Jesus is the Father, wouldn’t that mean that Mary is the Mother of God? Why should there an arbitrary distinction be put between God and Jesus as God, when in all practicality no such distinction exists in the minds of those who are determined to confuse God and Jesus Christ in regard to divinity?

What is the definition of divinity? If it’s related to the essence of the God who possesses divinity, and if Christ is God, shouldn’t those who are in Christ be considered to possess this divinity by virtue of being in Christ and partakers of the divine nature? Implying that in the end, the only thing God really loves is himself? Or is divinity an attribute in itself?

FC

The Flesh Body/Mind of Jesus Christ is a MAJOR Distinction:

John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Believers on the other hand have a 'measure' not of the unlimited sort.

2 Corinthians 10:13
But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

We can certainly 'measure' ourselves according to our 'part' in His Body, not to exceed any other member and particularly not surpassing THE HEAD of same Body.

s

 

[John Zain]

Scripture clearly and repeatedly states that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah.
It clearly and repeatedly (hundreds of times) states that YHWH (Jehovah/Yahweh) is God.
But it never clearly nor repeatedly states that Jesus is God.

Teddy,

The answer for you is that most SPIRITUAL TRUTH needs to be revealed by God to a person.
This is why the spiritual aspects of the NT cannot be understood by an unsaved man.

Jesus clearly explains to everyone WHY He spoke in parables so much.
He said it was to fulfil the OT prophecies which said ...
the spiritually blind would not see, and the spiritually deaf would not hear.
I.E. The spiritual things Jesus was saying would purposely NOT be understood by certain people.

You are using the exact same EXCUSE as the Muslims do ...
Scripture does not have the exact words, "Jesus is God".

People like you are actually telling God what He MUST say, do, have written, etc.

 

[teddy trueblood]

For Free, #15

Sharp’s rule was invented in the 18th century by a Trinitarian searching for “absolute grammatical proof of the trinity.”

He declared that a NT Greek construction wherein two nouns (persons) are joined by the word “and” [kai] and the first noun has the article [‘the’] but the second does not, always show that the two are the same person (e.g., “the son and heir”). He found 5 such examples to ‘prove’ that Jesus is God: Titus 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:12; 1 Tim. 5:21; Eph. 5:5


The trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris devotes a section to 2 Thess. 1:12 in his book Jesus as God, pp. 265-266, Baker Book House, 1992. He admits, in effect, that the argument for a trinitarian interpretation (“according to the grace of our God and Lord, namely Jesus Christ”) is less probable and more poorly supported than the non-trinitarian interpretation (“according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ”). He admits that, although “the first rendering has a few supporters,” no English translation supports that trinitarian rendering, and, in fact, the trinitarian NAB, LB, GNB, MLB, NLV, Douay, KJIIV, andWeymouth translations most clearly refute it by rendering “the grace of our God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.” This alone destroys the assertion that this is an “absolute rule.” If it doesn’t work at 2 Thess. 1:12, and most trinitarian scholars and translators indicate this, there is no reason to insist that it works in any other scripture!

The Roman Catholic scholar, Karl Rahner, commenting on 2 Peter 1:1, says that ‘God’ “here is clearly separated from ‘Christ’.” - Theological Investigations, Karl Rahner, pp. 136, 137, Vol.1, 3rd printing: 1965.

2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ: To those to whom there has been allotted the same precious faith as that which is ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ." - Weymouth NT.

Famed British NT scholar and trinitarian clergyman Henry Alford wrote: “I would submit that [a translation which clearly differentiates God from Christ at Titus 2:13] satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle’s [Paul’s] way of writing.”- The Greek Testament, p. 421, Vol. 3.

“Of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus” - Titus 2:13, The Bible, A New Translation by Dr. James Moffatt, Professor of New Testament Greek at Oxford University.

And notice Eph. 5:5 - one of the examples Sharp himself chose to “prove” Christ’s deity which Wallace completely ignores. Most trinitarian Bibles translate this example of Sharp’s Construction: “in the kingdom of Christ and of God” - KJV; NRSV; RSV; NIV; NEB; REB; NAB; Douay; MLB; LB; GNB; TEV; The Amplified Bible; Third Millenium Bible; New Living Translation; New Century Version; God’s Word; Holman Christian Standard Bible; Wesley’s New Testament; Phillips; and the Webster Bible. This is not the way it would be translated if the two descriptions were of the same person! Trinitarian scholars themselves clearly reject Sharp’s rule here! If it doesn’t work here, there is no reason to believe it works at the other “Sharp’s Constructions” including those in Titus and Peter!

This is what I mean by clearly and repeatedly stated. The Greek allows for different interpretations, and just because most Trinitarians choose a Trinitarian interpretation does not mean that it is the correct one. It is not a clear, undisputed (by Trinitarians themselves), oft-repeated statement.