Is Yahweh and Allah one?

[reba]

We agree in our rhetoric. but i believe you mean by Christ the concept of god as love, whereas I understand christ as the ideal and perfection of Truth.

I have no idea what you are saying.

 

[chakham]

For me the understanding of what 'the doctrine of Christ' means has changed. It has gone from mens statements of faith and demands I must belief Yeshua is god incarnate.. To realizing that the doctrine we must listen to is simply that which he was sent to teach us. Namely repentance and to turn back to Yehovahs ways and the Kingdom to come.

Like all the Greek versions of the 'new testement' letters Matthew recorded Yeshua as having no good thing to say about the Pharisees their oral laws and precedences and I'll even go so far as including mens statements of faith. He called them vipers and accused them of leading people astray. No sir, according to his doctrine he didnt seem to like these guys very much.

Yet in the greek versions of Matthew after all his rants and accusations against certain pharisees who lead people astray. He turns right around and seems to contradict himself in chapter 23:1-3 where he says:

"Then Jesus spoke to the people and to his disciples saying: Upon the seat of Moses the Pharisees and sages sit. Now all which they (the Pharisees & Sages) say to you keep and do; but according to their (the Pharisees and Sages) ordinances and deeds do not do because they say and do not."

So, like I said above after accusing them of leading people astray in other parts of the letters he says to his disciples do what the Pharisees and Sages tell you to do. That made me scratch my head.

One of the things I came across in my studies is a Hebrew version of the book of Matthew. It gives a very different account of the doctrine Yeshua taught his disciples and 'jives' very well with everything else he had against the Pharisees and sages.

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Translated it says: The Pharisees and sages sit upon the seat of Moses. Therefore, all that he (Moses) says to you, diligently do, but according to their reforms (takanot) and their precedents (ma‘asim) do not do, because they talk but do not do.

So now we hear the words of the 'sent one' advising his disciples not to heed the laws and precedences of certain Pharisees and sages. But to do what Moses said to do. It is written Yeshua walked in the light. Search the scriptures and you will find the commandments given to Moses was to be a light unto the nations. That is the light we are to walk in.

Its interesting to note that Papias (60-130 C.E.) bishop of Hierapolis wrote that "Matthew collected the oracles in the Hebrew launguage, and each (greek translator) interpreted them the best he could". Seems they missed something big when they translated the Hebrew manuscripts into Greek.

 

[reba]

No, but that's not what the verse you quoted says. In my reading of that verse, I have no problem whatsoever.

I just read it again and... yup... I'm still OK

Pulling one verse or line of any book is not fair to the writer or reader. I will not copy and paste the whole Bible :eeeekkk it is there for any one to read. If It does not speak to you so be it.

I dont believe your OK i believe your salvation is at stake. Eternity is a long time... (Just my opinion)

I'm surprised that there are STILL some people who have not come to the realisation that the word Allah has nothing intrinsically Islamic about it (illustrated by the simple fact that Arabic-speaking Christians have used this word before English-speaking Christians have been using "God"). So quit with your conspiracy theories that "Alah" is a curse (in fact "Alah" is the Aramaic word for God, likely the term used by Jesus... Look it up.)

Way back a few thousands words ago , a statement was made about how the word allah is use to today. For my part of the world if some one says allah they are referring to a islamic god.

 

[Seeker]

Way back a few thousands words ago , a statement was made about how the word allah is use to today. For my part of the world if some one says allah they are referring to a islamic god.

That's fine, but as long as you know that it's wrong. You see, the problem is not just in the reference, but you get these conspiracies about how the word Allah is so terrible, the Bible warns against it, it's a moon-god, etc. etc. This is why I repeatedly point out the fact that Christians, too, use this word. So when you are speaking against "Allah", it's nothing to do with the name, but the description of God.

 

[tessiewebb]

Search the scriptures and you will find the commandments given to Moses was to be a light unto the nations. That is the light we are to walk in.

Actually, the Jews were to be a light unto the nations. They were not because, probably, they didn't understand God was moving to accept anyone and everyone who would believe in Jesus and His work on the Cross. Might've been a bit of pride there too, that they were the only chosen of God and didn't want to share in that status with the ones they considered unworthy of being God's people. Notice they gave Paul a hard time too, not just Jesus.

 

[reba]

That's fine, but as long as you know that it's wrong. You see, the problem is not just in the reference, but you get these conspiracies about how the word Allah is so terrible, the Bible warns against it, it's a moon-god, etc. etc. This is why I repeatedly point out the fact that Christians, too, use this word. So when you are speaking against "Allah", it's nothing to do with the name, but the description of God.

No you will not put those words in my mouth. Words have meanings your Allah is not my God . Not the Almighty. Not the God of salvation..

 

[chakham]

Seeker, Forgive me if Im wrong but basically the point you are trying to make is that saying Allah is just the same as somone saying God but in the english language.

But now I can also understand Reba's point of view as well. Since most likely she like me, has heard on many occasions the phrase "The is no God but Allah and Allah is His Name". I am aware too the Muslim Allah has 99 names or attributes which describe Him in even further detail. Even the Hebrew God has names or attributes which describe Him.

But where I see the difference is, unlike the name God Himself told to Moshe of which He said "this shall be my name forever". I dont find any where in the Noble Quran or any of the Hadith where Allah identifies himself as such to anyone.

Apparently we do agree on atleast one thing. But I must admit the problem I have with that phrase causes me to think too it is not the same God.

Comments?

peace

 

[tessiewebb]

Tessieweb

If you search Tanakh you will find the same description. In fact YHVH own words tell us there are none beside him that He alone is our saviour. HOWEVER! We do find evidence in Tanakh he also 'sent' saviors to his people. Which also happens to be only thing Yeshua by his own words ever admitted too being, which was that he was 'sent' by God.

I REALLY hope you are not saying that Jesus, Yeshua as you say, is not the Son of God, because there are many Scriptures that prove you dead wrong. First of all, He did say it Himself, "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" Even the devils knew this. (Matthew 8:9) How is it your learning has not let you in on this key to salvation?

As for "searching the Tanakh", it actually agrees with "our" Bible in this saying, He will send saviors. Very true, they are called ministers and witnesses in other places.

 

[chakham]

I REALLY hope you are not saying that Jesus, Yeshua as you say, is not the Son of God, because there are many Scriptures that prove you dead wrong. First of all, He did say it Himself, "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" Even the devils knew this. (Matthew 8:9) How is it your learning has not let you in on this key to salvation?

As for "searching the Tanakh", it actually agrees with "our" Bible in this saying, He will send saviors. Very true, they are called ministers and witnesses in other places.

You hoped correct tessiewebb, I assure you I do not deny that Yeshua, or as you say Jesus, is a son of God, sent by God to call His people to repentenance.

 

[reba]

Kumi, Thanks for 'getting it' :yes

 

[Seeker]

Seeker, Forgive me if Im wrong but basically the point you are trying to make is that saying Allah is just the same as somone saying God but in the english language.

But now I can also understand Reba's point of view as well. Since most likely she like me, has heard on many occasions the phrase "The is no God but Allah and Allah is His Name". I am aware too the Muslim Allah has 99 names or attributes which describe Him in even further detail. Even the Hebrew God has names or attributes which describe Him.

But where I see the difference is, unlike the name God Himself told to Moshe of which He said "this shall be my name forever". I dont find any where in the Noble Quran or any of the Hadith where Allah identifies himself as such to anyone.

Apparently we do agree on atleast one thing. But I must admit the problem I have with that phrase causes me to think too it is not the same God.

Comments?

peace

The reason I repeatedly point out this simple point is because of the amazing frequency and popularity ideas such as these receive:

The prophet Daniel gives us insight on this subject.

"Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your Law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the Law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him."

The Strong's # 423 for the word "curse" is...... yep! You guessed it!!!! ALLAH is a CURSE sent by God to punish those who have tossed aside His commandments!
If you believe the Law has been done away with.... you might want to sit up and take note WHERE in Daniel this is written. This passage nestles up right before the 70 Weeks prophecy in....... YEP!!! You guessed it again..... 9/11

I have to leave at the moment but my first couple posts in here might elucidate a few things: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=41882

 

[Sinthesis]

You hoped correct tessiewebb, I assure you I do not deny that Yeshua, or as you say Jesus, is a son of God, sent by God to call His people to repentenance.

You said "is a son of God"?

Further, you are ascribing the message of John the Baptist to Jesus. The Gospel of Jesus Christ extends beyond repentance.

 

[tessiewebb]

You said "is a son of God"?

Further, you are ascribing the message of John the Baptist to Jesus. The Gospel of Jesus Christ extends beyond repentance.

Wish they'd put a "thanks for this post" button on this forum. Save them extra posts, but I do want to thank you for this post. I don't think I would've caught the "a son of God". Not only so but appreciate your pointing out that the Gospel of Jesus is much more than repentance.

 

[chakham]

'A' son of God yes, only because Ive read Yehovah called Israel His son, His firstborn. So apparrently He has more than one. Im just not that dogmatic anymore about having to believe Jesus is the only son of God and if I dont I'll burn in hell with the Jews.

Again I was speaking of what I consider the doctrine of Christ. I dont think it has anything to do with mens statements of faith, arguements over who he is, what he did, church traditions, systems and or teachings, etc etc. I think Yeshua's doctrine is his body of teachings, his instructions, his taught principles and positions i.e. the call to repentence, the Kingdom to come and returning to Yehovahs ways. All of which from what I have gathered is based on Gods Torah. Thats just my .02 cents.

Here is a classic example. I scan and post a portion of the Hebrew manuscript Matthew 23:1-3) which records Yeshua's doctrine (teaching, instruction and position) warning his disciples not to follow the oral laws and prescedents of certain pharisees and sages. And unlike the Greek translations which appears to contradict itself. This manuscript shows quite clearly he taught as his doctrine that he expected them instead to do what Moses said to do. And the only argument generated concerning the doctrine of Christ is my use over the letter 'a'.

 

[reba]

They are one in the same.

And the only argument generated concerning the doctrine of Christ is my use over the letter 'a'.

Words matter let me ask you: is your wife "a" wife of yours or the wife....

 

[tessiewebb]

'A' son of God yes, only because Ive read Yehovah called Israel His son, His firstborn.

It's not just your use of "a son", Kumi, it's your generalized disregard of the importance of Jesus in God's plan and purpose. It's a red flag for any believer in Jesus. Mormons use the term, Islam doesn't because it is considered blasphemy to say God had a son, yet they exalt Jesus as a "prophet" only while venerating Mary, go figure. Probably other divisions even among His Body use the same offensive term.

As far as Israel being His "firstborn", true enough Scripture confirms what you said, however Jesus is named the "only Begotten Son" which clearly delineates His superiority in God's eyes to Israel.

Don't know if you are into Judaism, sounds like you are. Still, you should be able to see by the responses you get that you are stepping on Christian toes in downplaying Jesus.

As the name of this thread is "Are Yahweh and Allah one?" your posts seem off track anyway and deliberate in their portrayal of Jesus as 'a son". So, if you don't mind, tell us what your point really is.

 

[chakham]

They are one in the same.



Words matter let me ask you: is your wife "a" wife of yours or the wife....

Im sorry but I have to say it is in my opinion these questions only serve to further the point Im trying to make.

But to answer your question, I suppose depending upon the point of view and how the words are used. Anyone, including myself, could regard her as 'a' wife. She could also be spoken of as 'the' wife of David (me). I regard her as 'my' wife and we are one. But what that has to do with the doctrine Yeshua taught his disciples in Matthew 23 is at this moment beyond me.

I mean doesnt the doctrine I posted stir up an ounce of curiosity in anyone? Or we going get stuck on the semantics of the letter 'a'?

The Torah was to be read every seven years before the whole congregation of Israel, INCLUDING the children. That tells me it was written in such a way that a child could understand what was being said. A college degree in English or Divinity isnt a requirement.

 

[Free]

Im sorry but I have to say it is in my opinion these questions only serve to further the point Im trying to make.

But to answer your question, I suppose depending upon the point of view and how the words are used. Anyone, including myself, could regard her as 'a' wife. She could also be spoken of as 'the' wife of David (me). I regard her as 'my' wife and we are one. But what that has to do with the doctrine Yeshua taught his disciples in Matthew 23 is at this moment beyond me.

I mean doesnt the doctrine I posted stir up an ounce of curiosity in anyone? Or we going get stuck on the semantics of the letter 'a'?

The Torah was to be read every seven years before the whole congregation of Israel, INCLUDING the children. That tells me it was written in such a way that a child could understand what was being said. A college degree in English or Divinity isnt a requirement.

I think their point is that when speaking of Jesus, "Son of God" means something significantly more than in any other context in Scripture. He is the Son of God and not merely a son of God. Look up every reference of "Son of God" relating to Jesus in the NT and tell me what you notice about the context.

 

[chakham]

It's not just your use of "a son", Kumi, it's your generalized disregard of the importance of Jesus in God's plan and purpose. It's a red flag for any believer in Jesus. Mormons use the term, Islam doesn't because it is considered blasphemy to say God had a son, yet they exalt Jesus as a "prophet" only while venerating Mary, go figure. Probably other divisions even among His Body use the same offensive term.

As far as Israel being His "firstborn", true enough Scripture confirms what you said, however Jesus is named the "only Begotten Son" which clearly delineates His superiority in God's eyes to Israel.

I stated my thoughts on his purpose. To call us to repentance, he taught from Torah and encouraged us to be obedient towards Yehovah. Was there anything in that which offended you, your religion or statement of faith? I certainly hope not!

I have stated my believes earlier, I believe he is a son of God just as I do Israel is hence the use of the letter 'a'. I never denied either he was begotton of God. In fact, I stated earlier for me the jury is still out on that. But I can say from what Ive read the time of the begetting was I think when he was resurrected. Not because of some interaction between flesh and Almighty God.[/QUOTE]

Don't know if you are into Judaism, sounds like you are. Still, you should be able to see by the responses you get that you are stepping on Christian toes in downplaying Jesus.

it is not my intention to downplay but rather find out who he really is.

As the name of this thread is "Are Yahweh and Allah one?" your posts seem off track anyway and deliberate in their portrayal of Jesus as 'a son". So, if you don't mind, tell us what your point really is.

It had to do with someone elses bringing up the doctrine of Christ and my rebuttle and it snowballed from there. It did no doubt go off topic, thats fer sure.

But again I cant believe the Hebrew Manuscript of Matthew didnt stir up any discussion, absolutley no curiosity whatsoever and was completly ignored.

We now bring to you your regularly scheduled program.

 

[Sinthesis]

I didn't expect to derail the thread, but only wanted clarification on what could either be an innocent typo or stealthy heresy. The doctrine of Christ vis a vis pharisaic Judaism deserves its own thread.

Yet actually this has been a useful diversion because the attributes of 'son' can also be used to make a point about Islam's image of and relationship to God, vs the Judeo-Christian knowledge of the same.

How many sons did Abraham have?
What does the Bible say about it?

Although historically factual, I also believe many relationships portrayed in the Bible can carefully be applied allegorically as an organizational tool to help gain insight into the rest of the world.

In that vein, is their any reason why siblings must exhibit the same regard for their father? Absent the help of God, one child could easily be deluded into believing about their father whatever seemed correct to their immature ego. It wouldn't mean their father didn't love them, but only that they didn't really know their father.

The greatest disadvantage Muslims have in understanding God's plan for humanity is in their placement of the Qu'ran over the Bible. Whenever any truth of the Bible offends them it can be disregarded as corrupt, and as I've said before, Muslims are easy to offend.;)