Is Yahweh and Allah one?

[tessiewebb]

The prophet Daniel gives us insight on this subject.

"Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your Law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the Law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him."

The Strong's # 423 for the word "curse" is...... yep! You guessed it!!!! ALLAH is a CURSE sent by God to punish those who have tossed aside His commandments!
If you believe the Law has been done away with.... you might want to sit up and take note WHERE in Daniel this is written. This passage nestles up right before the 70 Weeks prophecy in....... YEP!!! You guessed it again..... 9/11

Um, I realize again this is an older post. I was excited by your saying this curse in the verse you quoted is allah, thought for sure what I know of the god of the Muslims was vindicated here. However, as you pointed out Strong's 423 is alah. But the word for curse here is said to be Strong's 7045 transliteration of qĕlalah and that is shown to come from 7043 qalal . Still has "alah" in qĕlalah but if you wouldn't mind back tracking would you mind telling me how you came to the conclusion that the verse you quoted has the word alah in it? Thanks

 

[chakham]

In this case
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The doctrine of who Jesus is/was. The only begotten Son of the Living God. God incarnate. The Sacrificial Lamb!

Well in this case here is where I and a Muslim agree. I too belive that Jesus came in the flesh. I can also say with all certainty I came in the flesh, Reba came in the flesh, in fact everyone on this planet has come in the flesh.

What I dont agree with is the trinitarian doctrine which appears to me to twist this verse and teach that The Mighty Sovereign God YHVH came in the flesh. A doctrine which teaches other to bow down to a triune god is the false teaching which John warns us of.

You say in your SoF 'God in incarnate'. But never, not once has anyone in scripture or those letters EVER called him God the Son.

 

[chakham]

I realize this is a fairly old post on this thread but since there is no thanks button on this forum, I thought I'd bump it today instead and say thank you for this post in person (so to speak)

Tessieweb

If you search Tanakh you will find the same description. In fact YHVH own words tell us there are none beside him that He alone is our saviour. HOWEVER! We do find evidence in Tanakh he also 'sent' saviors to his people. Which also happens to be only thing Yeshua by his own words ever admitted too being, which was that he was 'sent' by God.

 

[reba]

No, not in this case. Muslims do confess that Jesus came and was the Christ.

Is Jesus God?

 

[jasoncran]

Well in this case here is where I and a Muslim agree. I too belive that Jesus came in the flesh. I can also say with all certainty I came in the flesh, Reba came in the flesh, in fact everyone on this planet has come in the flesh.

What I dont agree with is the trinitarian doctrine which appears to me to twist this verse and teach that The Mighty Sovereign God YHVH came in the flesh. A doctrine which teaches other to bow down to a triune god is the false teaching which John warns us of.

You say in your SoF 'God in incarnate'. But never, not once has anyone in scripture or those letters EVER called him God the Son.

Yeshua. that name means YAH saves. hmm jesus claimed that he was equal to the father in nature. He was the first and the last , the begining and the end. how can that be?

 

[chakham]

Yeshua. that name means YAH saves. hmm jesus claimed that he was equal to the father in nature. He was the first and the last , the begining and the end. how can that be?

Again I agree, Yehovah saves God Himself declared it! As it is written; "I, I myself, am Yehovah; and beside me there is no savior." Just as Yeshuas name declares it. But it in no way proves nor should it imply Yeshua is as trinitarians declare God Almighty. As for indentifying himself being one with the Father thats fairly easy, a child can understand. Think about it, you and your wife are one too are you not? When Yeshua said he and His Father are one he I think, is saying they are one in thought motive and deed. The only way for that to be possible was for Yeshua to submit his will to that of our Fathers will in heaven. Just as he did in the Garden of Gethsemenee.

Explain how he is the first and the last?

 

[jasoncran]

ok john 1:1
in the beggining was the word and word was god and word was with god.

hmm and later it says and word became flesh and we beheld him not

jesus claimed in revalation that he is the alpha and the omega and that is what the YHWH claimed in revalation if jesus isnt god then how can he be worshipped?

 

[chakham]

ok john 1:1
in the beggining was the word and word was god and word was with god.

hmm and later it says and word became flesh and we beheld him not

jesus claimed in revalation that he is the alpha and the omega and that is what the YHWH claimed in revalation if jesus isnt god then how can he be worshipped?

Yes, in the beginning was the logos (not Logos), it (not him) was with God. If you look in Genesis it (His word) was how everything came into being. God spoke and it was created and then at the end of creation it was God (nobody else) who rested afterwards.

Yes again I agree God's word did become flesh, eventually. I brought this up once before, remember? The clarity of the references below should remove any misunderstanding the veil of deceit so long used by the church to conceal truth. Below is a quote from Everyman's Talmud - The Major Teachings of the Rabbinic Sages, by Abraham Cohen. It summarizes many of Judaism's primary teachings. It should be realized this is the general understanding of this issue. The following quote is on page 347.

The belief was general that the sending of the Messiah was part of the Creator's plan at the inception of the Universe. "Seven things were created before the world was created: Torah, repentance, the Garden of Eden (i.e.Paradise), Gehinnom, the Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah" (Pes. 54a).

"From the beginning of the creation of the world king Messiah was born, for he entered the mind (of God) before even the world was created" (Pesikta Rabbah. 152b)

Here we see how the "pre-existence" of Messiah (christ) was understood by the Hebraic mind. Messiah was "born" in the MIND (thought, motive, plan) of YHVH (God) before creation but did NOT literally exist! The concept of a PHYSICAL literal pre-existence is arrived at by most Christians only because they have unknowingly (or knowingly) abandoned the Hebraic concept.

... but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained(foreknown, destined) before the foundation of theworld, but was manifest in these last times for you1 Peter 1:19-20

It must be noted how the pre-existence of the Messiah is defined in terms of his (Messiah's) existence in the MIND of God since before Creation. There is absolutely no literal pre-existence assumed at all!

 

[cupid dave]

Muhammad is not on equal plane with Christ. Not even close. Your allah is not God.

Say it how ever you wish as kind as can be, it is still a lie from hell. Your god is no different then the golden calf in the desert.

Hmmm...
Nay.
The muslims are not far from what th Jews believed until Jesus straightened them out, at least those who followed him.

The mnuslims are under The Law, which for them is Sharia, and not much different than that which was derived from the Torah.
They are in a state of growth, one rather similar to that which Jesus found the Jews in 32AD.

But Imust say the muslims seem to have followed their Law much better than their brothers, the Jews.
But, they will come to Christ, too, as the discover that Christ was the image of His father in the foorm of Truth, a reflection of the ever unfloding almighty Reality which is our God.

 

[cupid dave]

Don't necessarily agree with that first part of the bold. They regarded him as the most holy prophet in that he did not sin; and was born of the virgin Mary, but was not the Messiah, Chosen One, or Son of God.

While that difference is core to separating the two religions, Muslims do believe in each and every prophet mentioned in the Bible. The primary difference is they believe that Muhammad was the last prophet rather than Jesus.

I don't understand how that means different Gods...

Well, yes, they grant sincere lip service to Jesus, but Mohammed was careful not to recommend him.
Mohammed preached Jesus was a prophet, even a great prophet.

But they were taught to totally ignore everything Jesus taught and instructed people to actually do:





1) They do not love their enemy.
We see theterrorism today, and can read about the previous expansion of Islam by force.
Christians"sell" their christianity, but muslims impose it.

2) They do not strive to be the sons ofgod, which Jesus said all men can become:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

3) They do not acknowledge that the father of Truth is Reality, hence God is not one.

John 14:6 Jesus saithunto him, “I am (personifying the ideal), the truth, the way, and the life: noman cometh unto the Father, but by me, (Truth).


4) They do not strive for peace, but fight, even each other.

5) They do not turn the other cheek, especially to those who oppose theirreligion, though Jesus demonstrated that Christians should even endure martydomby their critics.

6) They do not "preach the Father,Son, and Holy Ghost"which Jesus SPECIFICALLY said to do.

7) They do not believe "All mannerof sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the HolyGhost shall not be forgiven unto men," as they kill people who burn theKoran.

 

[pHghost]

Some folks believe appeasement is a good and Godly thing i dont.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

The deeds of Islam are evil.

You should then possibly read my post again. Instead of replying to what I wrote, you seem to be repeating the same old song of a problem being there with the act of appeasement. It seems to be an automatic defense mechanism on your part. How exactly does appeasement figure in what I said?

Think about it for a moment.

 

[reba]

Hmmm...
Nay.
The muslims are not far from what th Jews believed until Jesus straightened them out, at least those who followed him.

The mnuslims are under The Law, which for them is Sharia, and not much different than that which was derived from the Torah.
They are in a state of growth, one rather similar to that which Jesus found the Jews in 32AD.

But Imust say the muslims seem to have followed their Law much better than their brothers, the Jews.
But, they will come to Christ, too, as the discover that Christ was the image of His father in the foorm of Truth, a reflection of the ever unfloding almighty Reality which is our God.

I dont have fancy words, simple it is.. Dave there is one God. Many gods.... If one does not have Jesus Christ as Lord of his life as the redemption for his sins etc he has not God. So says His Holy Word.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[cupid dave]

I dont have fancy words, simple it is.. Dave there is one God. Many gods.... If one does not have Jesus Christ as Lord of his life as the redemption for his sins etc he has not God. So says His Holy Word.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

We agree in our rhetoric. but i believe you mean by Christ the concept of god as love, whereas I understand christ as the ideal and perfection of Truth.

 

[pHghost]

I dont have fancy words, simple it is.. Dave there is one God. Many gods.... If one does not have Jesus Christ as Lord of his life as the redemption for his sins etc he has not God. So says His Holy Word.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

I must say I am thoroughly amazed by your aptitude to take verses out of context, even with something as short as 2 John. (And especially considering your signature.) The letter is very clear in what the doctrine of Christ means in the letter's context:

And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, that, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk it.
[2Jn 1:5-6]

Thus what John refers to when he writes, only a couple verses later:

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine...

If you have not that, you have not God -- that is the message John is trying to impart. Simple it is indeed. But you must not take the verses out the context of the letter, or the letter out of the context of all John's other letters, or all his letters out of the context of the times during which he was writing them (one notable example being that this was long before Islam emerged, and he mentions deceivers that had already come forth -- he is talking about deceivers who are among Christians, yet their faith is not true, and they go around preaching it -- a much bigger danger for those looking for true faith, if you ask me).

Applying modern context and understanding to the Bible will only mislead you.

 

[jasoncran]

the torah and the sharia law are way different. the torah outlawed slavery when you realised what it meant to own a slave and when rome took isreal. few jews had slaves as they realised what the torah was saying the limits on slavery. and slavery then wasnt slavery but indentured servitude. the torah also treats women better then sharia law. a woman can own land and polygamy is discouraged not encouraged by the torah. for the if the torah is the same as the sharia then jesus is also just as bad. jesus is represented in the torah.

 

[Seeker]

Is Jesus God?

No, but that's not what the verse you quoted says. In my reading of that verse, I have no problem whatsoever.

In this case
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

I just read it again and... yup... I'm still OK




I'm surprised that there are STILL some people who have not come to the realisation that the word Allah has nothing intrinsically Islamic about it (illustrated by the simple fact that Arabic-speaking Christians have used this word before English-speaking Christians have been using "God"). So quit with your conspiracy theories that "Alah" is a curse (in fact "Alah" is the Aramaic word for God, likely the term used by Jesus... Look it up.)

 

[Seeker]

the torah and the sharia law are way different. the torah outlawed slavery when you realised what it meant to own a slave and when rome took isreal. few jews had slaves as they realised what the torah was saying the limits on slavery. and slavery then wasnt slavery but indentured servitude. the torah also treats women better then sharia law. a woman can own land and polygamy is discouraged not encouraged by the torah. for the if the torah is the same as the sharia then jesus is also just as bad. jesus is represented in the torah.

You say "the Torah outlawed slavery" - I wouldn't agree with it as a fact, but regardless, I could make a similar statement that Shariah worked towards ending slavery and set a standard for their treatment - you must dress your slaves in the same clothes you wear, and feed them the same food you eat. This is not the place for this discussion though - message me if interested.

You say "the torah also treats women better then sharia law. a woman can own land and polygamy is discouraged". Well, with respect, it seems you do not know the Shariah. Women are free to own property, wealth, have earnings and the males have no right to touch it whatsoever. Polygamy is discourages, because the Quran says: "Marry two, three or four, but if you fear you cannot deal equally between them, then marry only one." and in the VERY SAME chapter God says, "Ye will not be able to deal equally between (your) wives, however much ye wish (to do so)." Again - it is allowed (in circumstances) but discouraged.

I don't know if this is really the place for this discussion though - do get in touch if you want to discuss further.

 

[Seeker]

Well, yes, they grant sincere lip service to Jesus, but Mohammed was careful not to recommend him.
Mohammed preached Jesus was a prophet, even a great prophet.

But they were taught to totally ignore everything Jesus taught and instructed people to actually do:

1) They do not love their enemy.
We see theterrorism today, and can read about the previous expansion of Islam by force.
Christians"sell" their christianity, but muslims impose it.

2) They do not strive to be the sons ofgod, which Jesus said all men can become:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

3) They do not acknowledge that the father of Truth is Reality, hence God is not one.

John 14:6 Jesus saithunto him, “I am (personifying the ideal), the truth, the way, and the life: noman cometh unto the Father, but by me, (Truth).


4) They do not strive for peace, but fight, even each other.

5) They do not turn the other cheek, especially to those who oppose theirreligion, though Jesus demonstrated that Christians should even endure martydomby their critics.

6) They do not "preach the Father,Son, and Holy Ghost"which Jesus SPECIFICALLY said to do.

7) They do not believe "All mannerof sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the HolyGhost shall not be forgiven unto men," as they kill people who burn theKoran.

It seems you are making the critical mistake of mixing the actions of some Muslims (whose angry reactions are somewhat understandable given the decades of bombing subjected by Western nations - both yours, the USA, and mine, the UK) with what Islam teaches. I don't mind going into depth of each of these, but if you want to do so then start a topic and let me know.

لا اكراه في الدين قد تبين الرشد من الغي فمن يكفر بالطاغوت ويؤمن بالله فقد استمسك بالعروة الوثقى لاانفصام لها والله سميع عليم
2:256 There shall be no coercion in matters of faith. Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evil and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.

 

[jasoncran]

You say "the Torah outlawed slavery" - I wouldn't agree with it as a fact, but regardless, I could make a similar statement that Shariah worked towards ending slavery and set a standard for their treatment - you must dress your slaves in the same clothes you wear, and feed them the same food you eat. This is not the place for this discussion though - message me if interested.

You say "the torah also treats women better then sharia law. a woman can own land and polygamy is discouraged". Well, with respect, it seems you do not know the Shariah. Women are free to own property, wealth, have earnings and the males have no right to touch it whatsoever. Polygamy is discourages, because the Quran says: "Marry two, three or four, but if you fear you cannot deal equally between them, then marry only one." and in the VERY SAME chapter God says, "Ye will not be able to deal equally between (your) wives, however much ye wish (to do so)." Again - it is allowed (in circumstances) but discouraged.

so do tell me why jews of today dont allow polygamay and islam does? and if you really want to go there show me which nation under the sharia law allows women to own land and rights?

the islamic republics of:

iran
iraq
afghanistan
egypt
lybia
saudi arabia
kuwait
i have yet to see it in practice as history shows islam to have slaves of the kafir and also treated women poorly. i have been to an islamic country on this list. in fact two of them. kill a boy in these nations and woe unto you money may not fix it but a girl. whip them american dollars and all is well. seen it and told we do it. we did with the 19 victims of the ssgt who murdered them. were they all boys? dont know as i havent looked to see.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ra-benefits-ministers-recognise-polygamy.html

its allowed in the uk if they came from other nations that allow it.


that said in christian traditions the persons adam and eve were the ideal of marraige it wasnt adam and steve, adam and eve and lilith. jesus fell to the first couple in marriage. yes god allowed polygamy but in the context of jacob, abraham and others it never went well for them that is why its not to be done.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/305549/jewish/Torah-Slavery-and-the-Jews.htm

deut 17:17
from the torah on it.

17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

on jews and the torah and polygamy.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/558598/jewish/Does-Jewish-law-forbid-polygamy.htm

it seems to me that the jews and christians only in the convo are have been willing to move beyond polygamy where as islam hasnt and wont.

 

[jasoncran]

when i said it outlawed slavery that is it because it had such rules that it made the hebrew see the slave as human and when they did they set them free. which is better to force morality on men or two show them via other means that what they do is wrong. im not for allowing either polygamy or slavery, but well when we freed the blacks in america all it did is push slavery underground. where as the way of the torah and the Lord is to change men's heart is for them the so God who made them and who loves them and his compassion on them and then with that in mind look at polygamy and slavery and they will realease that slave and not marry more then one wife. that is what those links say!