Isaiah 66:23

[John 8:32]

So, Adam broke the one law? At that time, lying, murder, theft, blasphemy, lust were all OK? The Ten Commandments did not exist at this time?

Adam broke the one law God had given Him. Afterwards he had knowledge of good and evil. What is good, "Love the Lord thy God and your neighbor as yourself. Jesus, gave these two which fulfill the law.

So, because Adam broke the command not to take the prerogative of dtermining right and wrong for himself, that excludes the existance of any other Law? Hmmm, what about Satan?

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Now here we see that lying and murder are called just that prior to Adam. Satan abode not in the truth...

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

He committed iniquity prior to Adam

Now with that said, please tell me what is wrong with the Law? Explain to me why it is bad and should be done away with. I eagerly await this explanation.

There is nothing wrong with the Law, the Law is good and holy. It was the covenant of the OT

No, it was not the Old Covenant, this is the Old Covenant...

Exo 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

Exo 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

covenant:

H1285
בּרית
berı̂yth
ber-eeth'
From H1262 (in the sense of cutting (like H1254)); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh): - confederacy, [con-]feder[-ate], covenant, league.

The Covenant was the agreement between God and Israel. The Law was the terms and conditions. The rules adn laws they agreed to abide by.

, in that people would begin obeying and then it became a ritual and they would forget the intent of the Laws that had been given. They would either fall away or become self righteous their doings. At least this is what I see happened in the OT over and over again.

They did not have the Holy Spirit, it was given at Pentecost. They could not keep the Law in their heart.

The NT or covenant has replaced the old as a better way, in that it clearly states that we are saved by grace and not by our doings. It leaves no justification for falling away or self righteousness. If we fall away we are not receiving the available grace of God, if we are self righteous we are forgetting that it is by grace we are saved through the cross.

Hmmm, and Paul says something quite different in that he quotes Jeremiah...

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

quoted from...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Now befroe everyone gets excited and says that the Law of the New Covenant is something different than the Law of Ex 20, let's look at what the Law in verse 33 is...

H8451
תּרה תּורה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

So the New Covenant is the writing of hte Torah in our hearts and minds.

The new covenant is All about what Jesus accomplished at the cross, it not about us and what we do, just what He did.
It is always about the intent of our hearts.

And you just told me it is not about what we do, yet it is about what we do. It is about what is in our hearts and minds.

Here's an easy example that we all can understand. Tithing....if one tithes only to receive back isn't that coveting? I give so now God is indebted to me. Yike!! and yet I've known people who think that way because of the OT promises but they miss the intent of giving. Paul, makes it plan in the NT. Give from the intent of your heart and the Lord gives pressed down and running over.

So tithing should be practiced? So one should obey? Well, yeaah.

Exo 20:11 - God blessed the Sabbath day and made it Holy for what He had done not anything that man did. Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.
The Sabbath (rest) is to rest in Him and what He did not what we do. It was made for us to rest and to take the time to fellowship (do not forsake the assembly) and to worship God without anything else interfering from our everyday lives. This is for us. He doesn't need the Sabbath but we do. God is quite confident in who He is, it is us that need the time spent with Him to remember who we are in Him.[/QUOTE]

Sounds to me liek the Sabbath is still in effect then. So let me see, you are agreement we should obey?

 

[John 8:32]

Originally Posted by John 8:32

Now with that said, please tell me what is wrong with the Law? Explain to me why it is bad and should be done away with. I eagerly await this explanation.

There is nothing wrong with the Law, the Law is good and holy. It was the covenant of the OT

I think we must try to accurately define exactly what we mean when we refer to the law in order to help us further the discussion. When I use it, it is a reference to the rules and behaviorial guidelines as well as the ceremonies and holy days the people in covenant with God were required to keep as part of their covenant relationship which began at Sinai.

Murder, theft, and bearing false witness was considered as wrong before the law for the people of that time. The 7th Sabbath of God was said to be introduced in the creation week well before the law, but no one was instructed to keep it holy until the covenential law was put into effect at Sinai. Who was this covenent between and is this covenent is one that is still in effect? Me thinks the answers are between physical Israel and God and no, it's no longer in effect.

Uh, lemme see here...

Exo 16:5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

Exo 16:22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Exo 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
Exo 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
Exo 16:27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

How long do you refuse to keep my Commandments and my Laws? Now this was spoken prior to Mt. Sinai and the statement itself shows that the Commandments and Laws are already in force.

 

[John 8:32]

I think we must try to accurately define exactly what we mean when we refer to the law in order to help us further the discussion. When I use it, it is a reference to the rules and behaviorial guidelines as well as the ceremonies and holy days the people in covenant with God were required to keep as part of their covenant relationship which began at Sinai.

I agree with this when saying the Law as given in that Mosaic Covenant.

What about Abraham?

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

What are these Commandments, statutes and Laws? Did God just scrap them and give a whoe new set prior to Mt. Sinai?

Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

Now were these Commandments and Laws different from the ones that were given to Abraham? Then were these scrapped and new ones given at Mt. Sinai? Can God make up His mind? Is He the God who said...

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

And then later said...

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Seems to me you would have us believe that God jumps all over the place willy-nilly. He gives Laws, rescinds them, gives different Laws, scraps them and then gives a whole different set, then comes as a humbel carpenter and says, "Oh well, it was worth a try but now I am doing away with all law. Let anarchy reign.

Murder, theft, and bearing false witness was considered as wrong before the law for the people of that time.

Also agree, in the knowledge of good and evil.[/QUOTE]

Not what the tree was about. Here is what the tree was about...

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

To determine what is good and evil.

 

[John 8:32]

What was known from the beginning?

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

And the new Commandment is the ability to obey from the heart, to truly love God and truly love our neighbor.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Now befroe everyone gets excited and says that the Law of the New Covenant is something different than the Law of Ex 20, let's look at what the Law in verse 33 is...

So the New Covenant is the writing of God's Torah in ... hearts and minds.

Great point. We must consider exactly what God's Torah is and whether or not it can be distinguished from the rules and regs listed Exodus and Deuteronomy. When we see or hear of "The Torah", we naturally think of the laws governing the Israelites that were party to the Sinai Covenant, but those governing principals may well have just been for that covenant people and not anything more than that. Jesus seemed to sum up God's law when He said that man is to love God with all his being and to love ones neighbor as one loves himself.

As far as keeping the Sabbath or even paying a tithe, no biblical evidence strongly suggests that these tenets of the covenant between physical Israel and God carry any weight any longer as they annulled it and these commands were not binding on those not of that covenant. One could make the case that God has always had a law/torah in place for all of mankind but the Israelite covenant was a special one with them similar to how Jesus made a special covenant with his 12 in Luke 22:28-30.

 

[smaller]

Now with that said, please tell me what is wrong with the Law? Explain to me why it is bad and should be done away with. I eagerly await this explanation.

There is nothing wrong with the Law.

Following same with some imaginary pseudo Perfection is a deception and a fallacy.

s

I have never said that keeping the Law justifies or saves anyone, that does not mean it is not required of us...

Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

The Law is our duty, but it cannot justify us or give us eternal life...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Works saves no one, but...

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are created for good works. What are good works? What was it that God ordained before? The Law.

Perhaps we can all 'get real' about what the LAW and following same does NOT do?

A. It does not allow us to EVER say we have NO SIN, even while being supposedly 'legally obedient.'

B. It will never change our body of death wherein SIN indwells

C. It will never change the fact of being sown in corruption, dishonor and weakness

D. It will NEVER make the presence of evil 'legal' or 'obedient' or 'blessed' or 'authorized' or 'condoned'

E. It can not make the devil whom is also implicated and involved with sins legal or obedient and

F. The Law will actually arouse and provoke the resistance of the TEMPTER to ACTIVATE and to show itself to be an 'internal fact' of EVIL THOUGHTS'

I'm quite certain any honest 'legalist' could consent/resign themselves to these obvious facts.

The fact is that mankind inclusive of believers have A CONTRARY MIND to contend with and that mind is not about to change it's stripes via LEGAL OBEDIENCE.

Contrary THOUGHTS do in fact 'defile' all of us as a fact. A fact which does not change under LAW.

The fact that we all have to deal with CONTRARY ILLEGAL THOUGHTS is proof that we are all sinners, regardless.

Matthew 15:
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Mark 7: 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

The above statements are not MAYBE statements from Jesus.

They are factual things that transpire within all of us. There is no avoiding these FACTS by performing 'external cover ups' and claiming 'legal obedience.' In fact it's laughable to even try to claim 'external obedience' as legitimate in light of INTERNAL disclosures.

No matter what we do, evil remains present within all of us, period. Just as Paul showed us for himself.

s

 

[Deborah13]

No, it was not the Old Covenant, this is the Old Covenant

What I was trying to say is that the Law was not the problem, it was the old covenant was the issue and that the new covenant was a better one.

Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

So tithing should be practiced? So one should obey? Well, yeaah.

If one wishes to tithe as the Lord intended for the right reasons yes. But not to seek something for one self, coveting.

Was God please in the end when Job showed that he thought he was righteous because of the things he did? NOPE

Do you have a problem with people giving from the heart? Do you have a problem with people worshiping from the heart?
I have already told you that I don't have a problem with people worshiping on whatever day they choose. Saturday is fine!!

It is what comes out of the heart/mouth of man that defiles or shows faith and love.

 

[Deborah13]

Uh, lemme see here...

I agree and I give you again, God's Word.
Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

 

[Deborah13]

Not what the tree was about. Here is what the tree was about...

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

This verse tells why man had to lose access to the garden.

 

[Deborah13]

s

They could not keep the Law in their heart.

Really, that is not what God said about David. He said David's heart was right, that he was a man after God's own heart. David just plain disobeyed God and did what he knew God would not approve. But God did not desert him, He used David's failure to teach him many things. "He who is forgiven much, forgives much." is that what it says?
Job kept the law perfectly according to God and yet God rebuked him. Why? Because he didn't have a heart for God. Job repented and then knew why he was so blessed.

 

[John 8:32]

No, it was not the Old Covenant, this is the Old Covenant

What I was trying to say is that the Law was not the problem, it was the old covenant was the issue and that the new covenant was a better one.

Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

The Old Covenant was not the problem

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The fault was with the people.

So tithing should be practiced? So one should obey? Well, yeaah.

If one wishes to tithe as the Lord intended for the right reasons yes. But not to seek something for one self, coveting.

Was God please in the end when Job showed that he thought he was righteous because of the things he did? NOPE

Do you have a problem with people giving from the heart? Do you have a problem with people worshiping from the heart?
I have already told you that I don't have a problem with people worshiping on whatever day they choose. Saturday is fine!!

It is what comes out of the heart/mouth of man that defiles or shows faith and love.

Exactly, one obeys for the right reasons. Under no circumstances is disobedience OK, but one does not obey to be saved or to get something , one obeys because it is the right thing to do. I have posted time and again that God's intent is to write His Laws in our hearts and minds such that we do good works from the heart.

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Jas 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
Jas 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

 

[John 8:32]

s

They could not keep the Law in their heart.

Really, that is not what God said about David. He said David's heart was right, that he was a man after God's own heart. David just plain disobeyed God and did what he knew God would not approve. But God did not desert him, He used David's failure to teach him many things. "He who is forgiven much, forgives much." is that what it says?
Job kept the law perfectly according to God and yet God rebuked him. Why? Because he didn't have a heart for God. Job repented and then knew why he was so blessed.

And David was a special case as was Abel, Noah, Abraham and selected others that God worked with, but salvation was not available wholesale neither was the Holy Spirit under the Old Covenant.

 

[chessman]

[17] For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. [18] But be ye glad and rejoice forever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy

Obviously verse 17 is a promise of our new heaven and new earth (yet to come, re-create by God). Whereas verses like verse 20:
for the young man shall die a hundred years old,
and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.
(Isaiah 65:20 ESV)

Verse 20 , etc. Is a description of Israel's peicful life on this Earth. There's still dying (be it a rip old age) and sinners. Is 65, to me, indicates our security from our enemies while we live out our lives in God's protection. With verse 17 being the ultimate re-building of a new Heaven and new Earth. Else, why have a verse like 20 or
They shall not build and another inhabit;
they shall not plant and another eat;
for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be,
and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
(Isaiah 65:22 ESV)

Trees die at their rip old age, but die they do.