It Is Impossible ?

[chessman]

Thank you Chessman for taking the time to study and write what you have.

You are welcome. I appreciate your posts and time you put into A&T as well. And not just because I agree with most (if not all) of your posts. Thank you.

And yes, I appreciate those posting in disagreement with some (or all) of my takes on various passages too.

If I'm wrong about a passage or Christian doctrine, I want to know it and correct my take on it. Which I have learned can be the case at times. (unless I'm wrong about me being wrong at times

 

[Deborah13]

For it is impossible …
For __?___is impossible …
What is the “it” that goes in the blank?
Answer = “to renew them again to repentance”
For “to renew them again to repentance” is impossible.
Also, there’s something else that’s impossible here in this passage:
Crucifying Christ again for yourself is impossible.

Is the author telling me Christian people cannot repent again (ever)? No, that’s not what the text says (but that’s what a lot of people think this passage says (for some reason I don’t quite fully understand why they think this). What it actually says is that to renew… (some translations use restore) them again (a second time) is impossible. In other words a second renewal is as impossible as a second crucifixion is.

Hazard a guess as to what the root-word “renew” or “restore” is in the Greek? It will surprise you, if you’ve never looked into it! It did me, anyway. If you’re really interested in what’s impossible (Renewal/Restoration, according to the author of Hebrews) I’d highly recommend that you look up for yourself (convince yourself) how this word is used Biblically in other passages. It will surprise you, I think.

But here’s my take on what I found (right or wrong):
That particular form of the word technically has one (and only one) occurrence in the entire NT here in Heb 6:6. I believe for a specific reason. i.e. this particular form of the word (cognate) is unusual (1 occurrence). In fact, Heb 6:6 has two such unique cognates in it (that only occurs once in the entire NT). But their root words are not unusual and they are related. I believe they take these unique forms because the author is actually presenting a logical argumentation technique called “argumentum absurdum” and linguistically relating “renew again” (anakainizó: to renew) to “crucified again” (anastauroó: to crucify again) within his logical argument (that is the Biblical argument). The author’s argument is obviously comparing these two things, so-to-speak, to each other linguistically and logically. One ‘thing’ is so absurd (and everybody knows that it is) then/therefore, logically speaking, so is this other ‘thing’ impossible/absurd.

Cognate: 340anakainízō (from 303/aná, "up, completing a process" and kainizō, "make new," which is derived from 2537/kainós, "new in quality") – properly, to restore (bring back) by renewing; literally, "make qualitatively new." See 342 (anakainōsis).​

Here’s one example of how the word “renew” is used elsewhere using another cognate:

Acts 2:23 (NASB) this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.​

Yes, that’s right. The word translated “renew ” within Heb 6:4-6 is literally translated as “death” elsewhere. Any idea why? See Romans 8:13 as that person’s old-self has been put to death already. You cannot kill a dead person. It’s absurd.

Yes, lets look at that word translated as 'death in the NASB, in Acts 2:23, in both the NASB and the KJV is not G342. It is G337.
G337 - anaireō - only the part that is 'ana' G303 is the same.
anaireō
an-ahee-reh'-o
From G303 and (the active of) G138; to take up, that is, adopt; by implication to take away (violently),
that is, abolish, murder: - put to death, kill, slay, take away, take up.
NASB - Acts 2:23
"this G3778 Man, delivered G1560 over by the predetermined G3724 plan G1012 and foreknowledge G4268 of God, G2316 you nailed G4362 to a cross G4362 by the hands G5495 of G459 men G459 and put G337 Him to death. G337"

What did I misunderstand in your post? :neutral

 

[WIP]

If I'm wrong about a passage or Christian doctrine, I want to know it and correct my take on it. Which I have learned can be the case at times. (unless I'm wrong about me being wrong at times

That was funny.

 

[Lewis]

Hebrews 6 always reminded me of these Scriptures, I always kind of put them together.

2 Peter 2:20-22 King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[chessman]

Yes, lets look at that word translated as 'death in the NASB, in Acts 2:23, in both the NASB and the KJV is not G342. It is G337.

What did I misunderstand in your post? :neutral

It is my understanding they (340 and 337) are related root word meanings.

http://biblehub.com/greek/anakainizein_340.htm

Click the link above (for the word used in Heb 6:6, Strong's 340) then see the first listing under additional Concordance entries (over to the right). Acts 2:23 is listed first which is Strong's 337.

Englishman's Concordance
ἀνείλατε (aneilate) — 1 Occurrence
Acts 2:23 V-AIA-2P
GRK: ἀνόμων προσπήξαντες ἀνείλατε
NAS: of godless men and put [Him] to death.
KJV: hands have crucified and slain:
INT: lawless having crucified you put to death

I found it interesting that Luke's record of Peter's sermon there also says that it was not possible for Him to be held in death's power (using an evidently similar concordance entry to "renew") and Hebrews also is talking about what is impossible.

23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of [u]godless men and put Him to death. 24 [v]But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the [w]agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held [x]in its power.

it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [a]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The other uses listed in the Englishman's concordance for "renew" are very interesting as well.

 

[chessman]

Hebrews 6 always reminded me of these Scriptures, I always kind of put them together.

2 Peter 2:20-22 King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hebrews 6 brings to mind to me, 2 Peter 3:16

 

[Deborah13]

It is my understanding they (340 and 337) are related root word meanings.

http://biblehub.com/greek/anakainizein_340.htm

Click the link above (for the word used in Heb 6:6, Strong's 340) then see the first listing under additional Concordance entries (over to the right). Acts 2:23 is listed first which is Strong's 337.

Englishman's Concordance
ἀνείλατε (aneilate) — 1 Occurrence
Acts 2:23 V-AIA-2P
GRK: ἀνόμων προσπήξαντες ἀνείλατε
NAS: of godless men and put [Him] to death.
KJV: hands have crucified and slain:
INT: lawless having crucified you put to death

I found it interesting that Luke's record of Peter's sermon there also says that it was not possible for Him to be held in death's power (using an evidently similar concordance entry to "renew") and Hebrews also is talking about what is impossible.

23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of [u]godless men and put Him to death. 24 [v]But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the [w]agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held [x]in its power.

it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [a]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The other uses listed in the Englishman's concordance for "renew" are very interesting as well.

I understand now what you are looking at but I will explain how I understand the Greek etymology.
G340 does not mean to 'renew' it means 'to renew' them. In breaking down the word the G303 - 'ana' is 'to' in this word. It is being used as a preposition.
The part of the word that means 'renew' in this case renew 'them' is G2537. So that one Greek word is actually a phrase in English.
What you are looking at are related words because of the different forms of the 'ana'.
So when one of those forms of G303 is added to a adjective as in G340 or is used as an adverb like it is in Acts 2:23 it doesn't mean 'renew'. It can mean several different words depending on what it is attached to. It could be, to, by, in, through, several, apiece, every man, each, etc. G337 is a verb but it is like a phrase in English. G303 + G138. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G138&t=KJV
G138 means to 'take for oneself, to prefer, to choose.'
When I look in scripture4all.org at the transliteration of that word G337, it say 'ye assassinated', so 'you kill'. So the form of 'ana' which is 'ane' is the 'you' part of the phrase in English. Which in this case is understood by the content of the sentence.

I'm like you, I not saying I'm right just that is how I understand it. :neutral

I wish one of our Greek reading people would jump in here and help. I know we have at least one and I think two.

 

[reba]

 

[chessman]

What you are looking at are related words because of the different forms of the 'ana'.
So when one of those forms of G303 is added to a adjective as in G340 or is used as an adverb like it is in Acts 2:23 it doesn't mean 'renew'. It can mean several different words depending on what it is attached to.

Yes. I know. What I was pointing to (or trying to), however, was the fact that the author 'attached' ana to the normal word form of the word for renew (in a unique way it seems in all of the Bible) the same way he used a unique form for death to form a matching linguistic pattern it seems. Like he meant to do that for a reason ??? Almost like forming a rhym or play on word-sounds, it seems to me.
'A poet and don't know it' so-to-speak

I should have been clearer in my post.

I wish one of our Greek reading people would jump in here and help. I know we have at least one and I think two.

Me too. I know enough to get me in trouble. But I did find some interesting patterns by using the concordances.

p.s. I also found out that Origen claimed Paul wrote Hebrews by his quotation of this passage within Heb:

Heb. 6:7 - NIV, NAB - in Origen de Principiis Book III (Estimated Range of Dating: 203-250 A.D.)

To show more clearly, however, what we mean, let us take the illustration employed by the Apostle Paul in the Epistle to the Hebrews, where he says, "For the earth, which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, will receive blessing from God; but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing, whose end is to be burned."[92]

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/e-catena/hebrews6.html

 

[Deborah13]

Yes. I know. What I was pointing to (or trying to), however, was the fact that the author 'attached' ana to the normal word form of the word for renew (in a unique way it seems in all of the Bible) the same way he used a unique form for death to form a matching linguistic pattern it seems. Like he meant to do that for a reason ??? Almost like forming a rhym or play on word-sounds, it seems to me.
'A poet and don't know it' so-to-speak

Oh....well why didn't you just say so. :biggrin Just kidding, sometimes I'm more than a little dense.
That's an interesting idea, I will have to consider it. Hmm...

I should have been clearer in my post.

Me too. I know enough to get me in trouble. But I did find some interesting patterns by using the concordances.

p.s. I also found out that Origen claimed Paul wrote Hebrews by his quotation of this passage within Heb:

Heb. 6:7 - NIV, NAB - in Origen de Principiis Book III (Estimated Range of Dating: 203-250 A.D.)

To show more clearly, however, what we mean, let us take the illustration employed by the Apostle Paul in the Epistle to the Hebrews, where he says, "For the earth, which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, will receive blessing from God; but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing, whose end is to be burned."[92]

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/e-catena/hebrews6.html

Hey, I didn't know anyone had ever stated that. I can easily agree. The whole book is stated as a lawyer might present a case.

 

[By Grace]

There is no "if" in the actual text, that's a mistake on the part of the KJV. Newer versions don't make that mistake.

"and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt." Hebrews 6:6 (ESV)

The Greek word that we translate, "have (or having) fallen away," which is παραπεσόντας, is in the accusative case, not the subjunctive so there is no questioning in this case on the question of "if," and the word prior to it καὶ is a simple conjunction that is correctly translated "and then."

Your argument does not fit the text.

FYI not for argumentation

The Greek word παραπεσόντας you will see that it is a PARTICIPLE not STRICTLY a noun nor strictly a verb. Because it is a participle It has a hybrid, and it has elements of both. The important thing to remember in the usage of the participle is that it is showing a continuous action, and the tense of the verb part of the participle merely described the onset of the action. For example, if the tense of the verb part of the participle is present, then the action began in the present; if the tense of the verb part of the participle is aorist, or past, then the action of the verb part means that the action began at one time in the past, and is presently continuing. That is one reason why the study of Greek participles is difficult for English speakers; we have nothing similar. That is why the ESV says "then have fallen " notice that it is a past tense statement.

Yours is a correct analysis of the meaning; however it might be better to explain the differences between the cases of nouns, as well as the voices of the verbs, and why they are important.

In this case, the accusative case is the form of the NOUN that tells us "what" or "whom" did or received the action of the verb. The recipient of the action of the verb in the accusative case is always a noun and it is declined, not parsed.

When you mention "subjunctive" it refers to the MOOD of the VERB and it is the the manner we use to express something that is unreal at the present. "If it rains tomorrow..." is an example of a subjunctive because at present it is not raining.

Because the word is a participle it has only tense (aorist) and voice (active). By definition, it cannot have a mood, such as indicative or subjunctive. That is why the ESV says "then have fallen " notice that it is an active voice.

As to the meaning of the verb, it is a very powerful one:

παραπίπτω parapiptō fall away; commit apostasy
34.26 παραπίπτω; ἐκπίπτωc; ἀποστρέφομαιb; ἀφίσταμαιb (and 2nd aorist active): to abandon a former relationship or association, or to dissociate (a type of reversal of beginning to associate)—‘to fall away, to forsake, to turn away.’6 παραπίπτω: παραπεσόντας, πάλιν ἀνακαινίζειν εἰς μετάνοιαν ‘once they fall away, (it is impossible) to bring them back to repent again’ He 6:6. ἐκπίπτωc: τῆς χάριτος ἐξεπέσατε ‘you have turned away from the grace (of God)’ Ga 5:4. Note, however, that the underlying structure of the expression τῆς χάριτος ἐξεπέσατε really involves ‘turning away from God who has shown grace.’ For another interpretation of ἐκπίπτω in Ga 5:4, see 90.72. ἀποστρέφομαιb: πολὺ μᾶλλον ἡμεῖς οἱ τὸν ἀπ’ οὐρανῶν ἀποστρεφόμενοι ‘how much less (shall) we (escape) if we turn away from the one (who speaks) from heaven’ He 12:25. ἀφίσταμαιb: ἐν τῷ ἀποστῆναι ἀπὸ θεοῦ ζῶντος ‘that he will turn away from the living God’ He 3:12.​

Louw-Nida

That is why the ESV says "then have fallen " because that explains the degree that they have turned their backs of God, and why it is impossible to renew them to repentance.

 

[By Grace]

Interesting how old translations are always wrong.
And what do you do when an even newer translation comes along and changes the whole thing again?

Rollo,

Every translation is a product of its time, and there is no exception.

Having said that, it is important that we do compare Scripture with Scripture, and equally important to look at the context of a verse, not just a few verses. My rule of thumb in cases like this is "Any verse that is ripped from its context becomes a pretext." I have found no exceptions to this motto.

therefore, I wish to expand the context in order to let in more light.

Hebrews 6:. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,(1) and have tasted of the heavenly gift(2), and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,(3)
5 And have tasted the good word of God (4), and the powers of the world to come,(5)
​

Notice that there are five distinct clauses which represent five separate conditions:

1. Enlightenment
2. Tasting of the Heavenly gift
   
3. Partaking of Holy Ghost
   
4. Tasting of the Word
5. Tasting in the powers of the world to come

Such people seem (the operative word) to be born again. In actuality they are ill-tempered dragons who trample under their feet the grace of God, and willingly destroy all that is sacred and holy. In practical terms, they are the ones who serve "roasted preacher" with their

Interesting how old translations are always wrong.
And what do you do when an even newer translation comes along and changes the whole thing again?

In my opinion, I believe that this Scripture is referring to the evil dragons who inhabit every church. They are the ones who serve "roasted preacher" during their Sunday meals, and who are a cancer in the church of Jesus Christ. Pious and good sounding at first, they seek to destroy the church from within, and carry off families at one swoop. Their mission is to destroy and to take captive with slanderous gossip and false doctrines entire sections pf people in order to decimate the body. (yes, I have met a few of those sorts of dragons)

Therefore, the six conditions listed above are descriptive of them. They have only "Tasted" the Heavenly Gift of unmerited salvation by grace alone; they have not fully experienced that. They have been enlightened by the faithful pastor who preaches his heart out every Sunday,p but it never reached their heart.

They merely "tasted" the Word of God, even memorized some verses to impress people and they have merely "tasted" of the things that shall come at the end of the Age.

In short, they have just "played church" (in one way, church is a specific culture) but have never accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. they are unable to answer affirmatively the question, "Has Jesus Christ, the Son of God risen from the dead?"

Sad to say, I have also seen the wrath of God poured out on them. It ain't pretty because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God, and because they have profaned all that is holy by their shallow belief and sideline-appearing to participate in church activities, it is impossible to have their darkened consciences renewew so that they can be saved. In fact, by their actions, they never were saved in the first place.

 

[Butch5]

This Scripture has bugged me for a lot of years, and I think i only talked about it once here somewhere around when I first joined just about 10 years ago. I have heard people try to explain it, but they seem to have trouble with it pastors and everybody else, because of the word IMPOSSIBLE in verse 4 of Hebrews 6:4-6. Years ago Hebrews 6:4-6 use to scare me to death. Because as much as I was messing up, those Scriptures would scare me to death every time I would think of them or read them. I really can't even remember some of the things I heard pastors say on this topic. So what say some of you Holy Ghost filled Bible readers here ?

Hebrews 6:4-6King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I think we only have trouble with it if we don't want to believe it. The statement is pretty straight forward.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

This is the passage of Scripture that says to me we can walk away from our Salvation

Hence the unforgivable sin? No one can pluck you out of Jesus hands. But you can freely walk away.

 

[Eugene]

Hence the unforgivable sin? No one can pluck you out of Jesus hands. But you can freely walk away.

So you can pluck yourself from God's hand though you've been sealed by the Holy Spirit?

John 6.44. "No man can come to me (Jesus), except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Only if he doesn't walk away?

John 10:27-29. "My sheep (Believers in Christ) hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish . .

John 6:37-40. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (Jesus won't cast us out regardless of our failures) (38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Eph. 4:30. "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

How much more secure can we be than God telling us in His word that He is totally for us?

 

[reba]

Hence the unforgivable sin? No one can pluck you out of Jesus hands. But you can freely walk away.

I dont claim to know the answer ... not one bit...

I have not reconciled these two passages in my head/heart... a ping pong ball that has bounced back and forth for about 30 years.... i just know they are both the Word of God...

Joh_10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

[chessman]

I think we only have trouble with it if we don't want to believe it. The statement is pretty straight forward.

Yes. Heb 6:4-6 is very straight forward:

4 For it is impossible concerning those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and become sharers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the coming age, and having fallen away, to renew them again to repentance

4 For it is impossible ....to renew them again to repentance​

For the life of me, I can't understand why people think this passage says:
For it is impossible ....to renew them again to salvation. But many do for some odd reason.

Since you've stated that it's a straight forward passage, would you then agree that Hebrews 6 doesn't say anything about renewing their salvation, but rather renewing their repentance?

In fact, the only thing Hebrews 6 has to say about salvation is:

9 But even if we are speaking in this way, dear friends, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and belonging to salvation.
​

I am convinced that salvation is even better than repentance. Woo Nelly! That repentance stuff is pretty good, but I can't wait to see salvation completed.

 

[smaller]

Heb. 6:7 - NIV, NAB

To show more clearly, however, what we mean, let us take the illustration employed by the Apostle Paul in the Epistle to the Hebrews, where he says, "For the earth, which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, will receive blessing from God; but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing, whose end is to be burned."[92]

You strike upon the ground of interest in the above. Clearly, clearly we are not talking about 'earth' in the sense of a piece of earth growing weeds i.e. thorns and briers. It is an allegorical deployment.

So let's take a look at Paul for applications.

Here is Paul's statement about the flesh body:

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

The question to be asked here is WHY? Why is the body vile?

We see from Phil. 3:21 that the VILE BODY will be changed. Let's look at the conditions in which we are ALL planted in to start with. Paul again provides us insight in many places, my favorite being from 1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made -

I'll end that citing at 45 there (-) as those are the factual planting conditions of all of us. With the Gospel Promise of CHANGE TO COME. I think most of us accept that premise. That the change is to come with a NEW BODY. But to understand, we have to deal with the reality of the vile body we currently have, as deployed in it's present condition, highlighted in 1 Cor. 15.

Let's then take a closer look at Paul. Paul unfolds his own conditions here, first, primarily from Romans 7:

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

I think the picture is gelling here dontcha think? Paul is being extremely self deprecating in those statements of fact. All of them. A vile body planted in weakness, corruption, dishonor and natural flesh, with evil present and indwelling sin that Paul MOST interestingly terms: NO LONGER I, twice even, for emphasis.

Let's look even closer at Paul's condition in conjunction with or linking it to the THORN statement from the Hebrews citing in 6:7

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Were I to look at Paul's factual description of his own vile body it is easy for me to see what the EARTH consists of, and the IDENTITY OF THE THORN.

There are also some Old Testament principles in play here. That the SUN and the RAIN from God fall on both the wicked and the just alike.

God has set before us all both good and EVIL. We can readily see the reality of the evil setting from Paul. There are many other scriptures to point in this direction as well.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

and here:

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

We don't need to look at the evil of other people or the world to locate EVIL. We look to ourSELVES, at our own EVIL conscience wherein we are 'exercised' to discern good from evil. It's not about the other guys evil or the worlds evil. It's about our own GROUND, our vile body wherein it has been set by God as an exercise.

Evil is a sore travail that we all contend with in our own conscience:

Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

It is easy to look at the reality of construction that Paul provided about himself here,

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

And see the THORN in that ground, that vile earth of his body, which is also exposed to Gods Light, and to then SEE 'who' is impossible to renew to repentance.

Just gotta take a close look.

What applied to Paul as Gods child has an opposite conclusion for the messenger of Satan that he bore as a thorn in his own body.

Interesting exercise, yes?

 

[tinykitten]

I don't believe we can walk away from our salvation. We can backslide certainly. But when scripture tells us, no man comes to me (Jesus) unless the father wills or calls him (her), and also the scriptures tell us that Jesus' sheep hear his voice and he knows their name, then we cannot renounce that which God has called us to. And Christ died to insure is a grace given us by his death on the cross. If we could, when Jesus says no one can snatch his people from his hand, then he miscalculated the will of man in that proclamation.

I just wanted to add this as well as a reminder. If people can choose to renounce God's grace and Paul's proclamation that it is impossible.....
Then what of Peter?
Who walked with our Lord and yet denied him three times before the cock called out after Jesus crucifixion. Was Peter, God's disciple, impossibly lost?

 

[WIP]

I dont claim to know the answer ... not one bit...

I have not reconciled these two passages in my head/heart... a ping pong ball that has bounced back and forth for about 30 years.... i just know they are both the Word of God...

Joh_10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

I'm with you. Personally, I think no matter which camp one connects with the bottom line is that we owe it to God, our fellow man/woman, and ourselves to live lives worthy of the wonderful and glorious sacrifice that was made on our behalf upon the cross. God deserves our best and commands us to let our light shine for all to see, be the salt of the earth, love one another as ourselves, and love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength for this is how others will know that we are disciples of Christ.

Merry Christmas everyone!