It Is Impossible ?

[chessman]

Interesting exercise, yes?

Well, reading your post(s) is an excercise alright. Not sure I'd call it so much 'interesting' as mind warping, though.

I think the picture is gelling here dontcha think?

If I knew what gelling meant (or some of the other things you say) I might think it so. I dunno.

Let's look even closer at Paul's condition in conjunction with or linking it to the THORN statement from the Hebrews citing in 6:7

What does Paul's thorn have to do with the fact that repentance is not salvation?

There are also some Old Testament principles in play here. That the SUN and the RAIN from God fall on both the wicked and the just alike.

I'm pretty sure it rained in the OT and the NT.

It's about our own GROUND, our vile body wherein it has been set by God as an exercise.

take a look at that belly to the left of this post. Does it look like an excercised body?

And see the THORN in that ground, that vile earth of his body, which is also exposed to Gods Light, and to then SEE 'who' is impossible to renew to repentance.

Huh?

 

[MarkT]

This Scripture has bugged me for a lot of years, and I think i only talked about it once here somewhere around when I first joined just about 10 years ago. I have heard people try to explain it, but they seem to have trouble with it pastors and everybody else, because of the word IMPOSSIBLE in verse 4 of Hebrews 6:4-6. Years ago Hebrews 6:4-6 use to scare me to death. Because as much as I was messing up, those Scriptures would scare me to death every time I would think of them or read them. I really can't even remember some of the things I heard pastors say on this topic. So what say some of you Holy Ghost filled Bible readers here ?

Hebrews 6:4-6King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Once a believer rejects the word of God and falls away, he can not be restored.

 

[iLOVE]

This Scripture has bugged me for a lot of years, and I think i only talked about it once here somewhere around when I first joined just about 10 years ago. I have heard people try to explain it, but they seem to have trouble with it pastors and everybody else, because of the word IMPOSSIBLE in verse 4 of Hebrews 6:4-6. Years ago Hebrews 6:4-6 use to scare me to death. Because as much as I was messing up, those Scriptures would scare me to death every time I would think of them or read them. I really can't even remember some of the things I heard pastors say on this topic. So what say some of you Holy Ghost filled Bible readers here ?

Hebrews 6:4-6King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The scripture says it like this, "without faith it is impossible to please God." Those who have been declared righteous (Christians) will live by faith. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. The enemy Satan is deceiving many Christians by taking their faith in God away from them. So he is not to be taken lightly! Satan has turned deception into an art form. The only battle a Christian is commanded to fight is the good fight of faith only! Christians must cast their cares and worries over to God totally. The battle is not ours, the battle is the Lords! Jesus said, "You will have suffering in this world." Faith grows through the testing of your faith which is our trials and tribulations. Trials and tribulation refines a Christian. During these times Christians should take refuge in the Lord and declare, "The Lord Is My Helper. Put on the full armor of God and count it all joy because we are promised victory. The greater the crisis the glorious the destiny.

 

[iLOVE]

Once a believer rejects the word of God and falls away, he can not be restored.

This is not true!

 

[MarkT]

This is not true!

How is it not true?

To enlighten is to receive the word of God and believe it in your heart. The believer received the word. He heard it. He received it with joy. He partook of the gifts - faith, hope, love, peace, joy, happiness. Then he fell away, renounced his faith, rejected the Lord. In this case it is impossible to restore him to repentance and belief again.

 

[iLOVE]

How is it not true?

To enlighten is to receive the word of God and believe it in your heart. The believer received the word. He heard it. He received it with joy. He partook of the gifts - faith, hope, love, peace, joy, happiness. Then he fell away, renounced his faith, rejected the Lord. In this case it is impossible to restore him to repentance and belief again.

Peter did exactly the same thing as you have stated. But when he returned, oh my...he opened the heavens with his anointing. He no longer was tingling cymbal and sounding brass. God allowed him to be sifted like wheat to redefine him and strengthen his brothers. Remember sometimes God allows the things He hates the most to accomplish the things He loves. God judges the heart not the flesh. 1 Samuel 16:7 NIV

Thank God for His amazing Grace and His new Mercies everyday. Hallelujah! Praise God! To God be the glory, Amen!

 

[MarkT]

Peter did exactly the same thing as you have stated. But when he returned, oh my...he opened the heavens with his anointing. He no longer was tingling cymbal and sounding brass. God allowed him to be sifted like wheat to redefine him and strengthen his brothers. Remember sometimes God allows the things He hates the most to accomplish the things He loves. God judges the heart not the flesh. 1 Samuel 16:7 NIV

Thank God for His amazing Grace and His new Mercies everyday. Hallelujah! Praise God! To God be the glory, Amen!

No. Peter didn't fall into unbelief and then return. Peter denied knowing Jesus, which is not the same as falling into unbelief. In fact, when he remembered what Jesus said, that Peter would deny him three times that night before the cock crowed, he wept bitterly. This shows what was in Peter's heart.

 

[smaller]

Peter did exactly the same thing as you have stated. But when he returned, oh my...he opened the heavens with his anointing. He no longer was tingling cymbal and sounding brass. God allowed him to be sifted like wheat to redefine him and strengthen his brothers. Remember sometimes God allows the things He hates the most to accomplish the things He loves. God judges the heart not the flesh. 1 Samuel 16:7 NIV

Thank God for His amazing Grace and His new Mercies everyday. Hallelujah! Praise God! To God be the glory, Amen!

I think you see pretty well there iLove. Yes, we do have internal spiritual battles with the wicked spirit enemy. It is that enemy in our own ground that can not repent. It is truly impossible.

When we get all the parties to the theological table, we have much better sights. It's never been just about man and what they believe. There is more going on within every man.

 

[tinykitten]

John 10:28-29 proves Jesus told you it is not true. No one and nothing else in scripture matters. When Jesus said it as savior of the world that's the word of God. Other interpretations to the contrary are heresy.

How is it not true?

To enlighten is to receive the word of God and believe it in your heart. The believer received the word. He heard it. He received it with joy. He partook of the gifts - faith, hope, love, peace, joy, happiness. Then he fell away, renounced his faith, rejected the Lord. In this case it is impossible to restore him to repentance and belief again.

 

[MarkT]

John 10:28-29 proves Jesus told you it is not true. No one and nothing else in scripture matters. When Jesus said it as savior of the world that's the word of God. Other interpretations to the contrary are heresy.

John 10: 28-29 isn't really applicable here. Jesus won't lose any of his sheep. However, his sheep don't follow false teachers.

According to the OP, if a man falls away after being enlightened, there is no way to restore him.

 

[By Grace]

I'm like you, I not saying I'm right just that is how I understand it. :neutral

I wish one of our Greek reading people would jump in here and help. I know we have at least one and I think two.

Hebrews 6:4-6 teaches that one can forfeit their salvation, and if it is one who was actually enlightened, thus knowing the full extent of what they are rejecting, then there is nothing left in reserve to reverse their decision and bring them back. Fortunately most people who reject Christ are not enlightened, but ignorant, therefore still salvageable given appropriate witnessing.

Posted earlier

FYI not for argumentation

The Greek word παραπεσόντας you will see that it is a PARTICIPLE not STRICTLY a noun nor strictly a verb. Because it is a participle It has a hybrid, and it has elements of both. The important thing to remember in the usage of the participle is that it is showing a continuous action, and the tense of the verb part of the participle merely described the onset of the action. For example, if the tense of the verb part of the participle is present, then the action began in the present; if the tense of the verb part of the participle is aorist, or past, then the action of the verb part means that the action began at one time in the past, and is presently continuing. That is one reason why the study of Greek participles is difficult for English speakers; we have nothing similar. That is why the ESV says "then have fallen " notice that it is a past tense statement.

Yours is a correct analysis of the meaning; however it might be better to explain the differences between the cases of nouns, as well as the voices of the verbs, and why they are important.

In this case, the accusative case is the form of the NOUN that tells us "what" or "whom" did or received the action of the verb. The recipient of the action of the verb in the accusative case is always a noun and it is declined, not parsed.

When you mention "subjunctive" it refers to the MOOD of the VERB and it is the the manner we use to express something that is unreal at the present. "If it rains tomorrow..." is an example of a subjunctive because at present it is not raining.

Because the word is a participle it has only tense (aorist) and voice (active). By definition, it cannot have a mood, such as indicative or subjunctive. That is why the ESV says "then have fallen " notice that it is an active voice.

As to the meaning of the verb, it is a very powerful one:

παραπίπτω parapiptō fall away; commit apostasy
34.26 παραπίπτω; ἐκπίπτωc; ἀποστρέφομαιb; ἀφίσταμαιb (and 2nd aorist active): to abandon a former relationship or association, or to dissociate (a type of reversal of beginning to associate)—‘to fall away, to forsake, to turn away.’6 παραπίπτω: παραπεσόντας, πάλιν ἀνακαινίζειν εἰς μετάνοιαν ‘once they fall away, (it is impossible) to bring them back to repent again’ He 6:6. ἐκπίπτωc: τῆς χάριτος ἐξεπέσατε ‘you have turned away from the grace (of God)’ Ga 5:4. Note, however, that the underlying structure of the expression τῆς χάριτος ἐξεπέσατε really involves ‘turning away from God who has shown grace.’ For another interpretation of ἐκπίπτω in Ga 5:4, see 90.72. ἀποστρέφομαιb: πολὺ μᾶλλον ἡμεῖς οἱ τὸν ἀπ’ οὐρανῶν ἀποστρεφόμενοι ‘how much less (shall) we (escape) if we turn away from the one (who speaks) from heaven’ He 12:25. ἀφίσταμαιb: ἐν τῷ ἀποστῆναι ἀπὸ θεοῦ ζῶντος ‘that he will turn away from the living God’ He 3:12.
Louw-Nida

That is why the ESV says "then have fallen " because that explains the degree that they have turned their backs of God, and why it is impossible to renew them to repentance.

 

[tinykitten]

John 10: 28-29 isn't really applicable here. Jesus won't lose any of his sheep. However, his sheep don't follow false teachers.

According to the OP, if a man falls away after being enlightened, there is no way to restore him.

The OP , its author, is asking for clarification. John 10:28-29 is applicable because it answers their querry. Just as you said Jesus' sheep can't follow false teachers. The only one's that can fall away are the one's that were never there.

 

[MarkT]

The OP , its author, is asking for clarification. John 10:28-29 is applicable because it answers their querry. Just as you said Jesus' sheep can't follow false teachers. The only one's that can fall away are the one's that were never there.

The question is what does Hebrews 6: 4-6 mean. It's not what does John 10:28-29 mean.

 

[iLOVE]

No. Peter didn't fall into unbelief and then return. Peter denied knowing Jesus, which is not the same as falling into unbelief. In fact, when he remembered what Jesus said, that Peter would deny him three times that night before the cock crowed, he wept bitterly. This shows what was in Peter's heart.

Jesus considered denying Him as a hardened heart, no faith, unbelief. Jesus warned, rebuked, criticized, and reprimanded His disciples for doing this several times in the scriptures. I will post the scripture that states exactly what I have said for you.

Jesus Talks to the Disciples
14 Later Jesus showed himself to the eleven while they were ·eating [reclining at table; see 2:15], and he ·criticized [reprimanded; rebuked] them because they had no faith. They were ·stubborn [hard hearted] and refused to believe those who had seen him after he had risen from the dead. Mark 16:14 EXB

The Great Commission
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. Mark 16:14 NKJV

This is why every Christian should thank our Heavenly Father for looking beyond our faults, seeing our tomorrows, and looking at our needs. Most Christians can't do this as you have condemned them under the "Law" which there is no more sacrifices.

 

[JohnD]

First of all, let's consider the offer of salvation in the first place. What it is, to whom it is offered, and to whom it is realized.

Hebrews 2:17 (KJV)
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

In other words, God the Word had to become one of us in order that his sacrifice would effect our salvation. He is our kinsman redeemer. Angels, for example, have no kinsman redeemer (even if they could be saved, and they who fell cannot be since they are in their eternal state). Man is capable of saving because man dies (is not in our eternal state). This is why Adam and Eve were banished from Eden (Genesis 3:24). Eating from the tree of life would have made their fallen state eternal.

1 John 2:2 (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Is this universalism?

No.

1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

specially = specifically

he is the potential savior of all mankind... but the actual savior of only those who believe.

John 3:16-18 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

There comes a point that only God knows for sure when a man's last opportunity to believe has past. Jesus facing the unbelieving Sanhedrin warned of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (i.e. dying in unbelief or being beyond the point of no return in unbelief).

Paul addresses in Romans 1 and following chapters how man is without excuse. The very universe around us screams "there is a Creator God." To a certain extent, all mankind has been in the place of Hebrews 6... we were made humans rather than, say, a stone or an animal... we have a mind, we have choice, we are at the pinnacle of creation and stand on the stage set between the two eternities... we have been given more grace than most realize... and yet many (some say most) refuse the gift of God.

The late Dr. Walter Martin dealt with the passage as "a hard nut" in scripture but focusing in on the condition of the one being spoken of... which he determined by the term "taste" being like that of the sponge filled with gall which the Lord tasted but did not drink in... or in other words the one being spoken of in Hebrews 6 was never a believer. A taster but not a deep drinker.

 

[MarkT]

Hebrews 6:4-6 assumes the believer hears the truth. He is enlightened. Then he walks away from the truth. Paul says there is no way to restore him to repentance.

 

[MarkT]

Jesus considered denying Him as a hardened heart, no faith, unbelief. Jesus warned, rebuked, criticized, and reprimanded His disciples for doing this several times in the scriptures. I will post the scripture that states exactly what I have said for you.

Jesus Talks to the Disciples
14 Later Jesus showed himself to the eleven while they were ·eating [reclining at table; see 2:15], and he ·criticized [reprimanded; rebuked] them because they had no faith. They were ·stubborn [hard hearted] and refused to believe those who had seen him after he had risen from the dead. Mark 16:14 EXB

The Great Commission
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. Mark 16:14 NKJV

This is why every Christian should thank our Heavenly Father for looking beyond our faults, seeing our tomorrows, and looking at our needs. Most Christians can't do this as you have condemned them under the "Law" which there is no more sacrifices.

To fall into unbelief is to no longer believe. That's not to be confused with their unbelief because they did not believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

Besides that we are talking about Hebrews 6: 4-6.

 

[MarkT]

Most Christians can't do this as you have condemned them under the "Law" which there is no more sacrifices.

I have done no such thing. What does the law have to do with it? Can you possibly stick to the subject?

 

[iLOVE]

To fall into unbelief is to no longer believe. That's not to be confused with their unbelief because they did not believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

Besides that we are talking about Hebrews 6: 4-6.

Hebrews 6:4-6 simply means no enemy can break the seal of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit who has seated us in heavenly places. The writer is telling us if this was allowed by God what it would be like as mentioned in Hebrews 6:4-6.

See Romans 8:35-39 NKJV

 

[MarkT]

Peter was enlightened, and yet when he denied Christ 3 times, he was still able to repent and be restored. I think this text has a historical background that needs to be taken into account, as these people are Jewish Christians. They came from the sacrificial system, which I think is the main thrust of the text. That if one were to fall back to the old sacrificial system, they would be in a way, crucifying Jesus all over again because they are saying that his first sacrifice was not enough and more blood was necessary to atone for sins.

For such a person to go back to the sacrificial system after being enlightened about Jesus and the gospel, such a person cannot be restored.

Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of me this night; for it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’

So the sheep were scattered. So Peter denied he knew Jesus just as Jesus said. So everyone abandoned him. Did Peter commit apostasy? What does this have to do with Hebrews 6:4-6?