The question is what does Hebrews 6: 4-6 mean. It's not what does John 10:28-29 mean.
Did you read my post above?
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https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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The question is what does Hebrews 6: 4-6 mean. It's not what does John 10:28-29 mean.
Hebrews 6:4-6 simply means no enemy can break the seal of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit who has seated us in heavenly places. The writer is telling us if this was allowed by God what it would be like as mentioned in Hebrews 6:4-6.
See Romans 8:35-39 NKJV
The question is what does Hebrews 6: 4-6 mean. It's not what does John 10:28-29 mean.
I'm aware of what the OP asks. John 10:28-29 answers the question. I won't ague this with you. You don't have to like my answer. You can move on with your own beliefs.The question is what does Hebrews 6: 4-6 mean. It's not what does John 10:28-29 mean.
It doesn't say that at all.
Paul explains it this way - For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. Heb. 6:6-8
This is consistent with what Jesus said, 'As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.” Mt. 13:23
So Paul is comparing the apostate's heart to land that has drunk the rain that bears thorns and thistles. And according to Jesus, 'As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the desire for riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.' Mt. 13:22
Sin
I think a lot of import is being put on sin as if to say those who are redeemed, saved in the Lord, can do something that will cause themselves to be fallen again.
This isn't true nor is it scriptural. One who is born again can not go back and be unborn. As far as sin is concerned, scripture tells us people born of God do not sin. In other words, we make mistakes because we're human. But our mistakes will never condemn us because we are forgiven through the washing of the blood of the lamb.
Take it to Jesus. He said it. I just paraphrased.I might hope you can see the circular reasoning employed above.
I have. He said I was only fooling myself.Take it to Jesus. He said it. I just paraphrased.
Just a question. How can one fall away from faith if they didn't have faith to begin with?The OP , its author, is asking for clarification. John 10:28-29 is applicable because it answers their querry. Just as you said Jesus' sheep can't follow false teachers. The only one's that can fall away are the one's that were never there.
Try this for an answer:
Every translation is a product of its time, and there is no exception.
Having said that, it is important that we do compare Scripture with Scripture, and equally important to look at the context of a verse, not just a few verses. My rule of thumb in cases like this is "Any verse that is ripped from its context becomes a pretext." I have found no exceptions to this motto.
therefore, I wish to expand the context in order to let in more light.
Hebrews 6:. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,(1) and have tasted of the heavenly gift(2), and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,(3)
5 And have tasted the good word of God (4), and the powers of the world to come,(5)
Notice that there are five distinct clauses which represent five separate conditions:
Such people seem (the operative word) to be born again. In actuality they are ill-tempered dragons who trample under their feet the grace of God, and willingly destroy all that is sacred and holy. In practical terms, they are the ones who serve "roasted preacher" with their
- Enlightenment
- Tasting of the Heavenly gift
- Partaking of Holy Ghost
- Tasting of the Word
- Tasting in the powers of the world to come
In my opinion, I believe that this Scripture is referring to the evil dragons who inhabit every church. They are the ones who serve "roasted preacher" during their Sunday meals, and who are a cancer in the church of Jesus Christ. Pious and good sounding at first, they seek to destroy the church from within, and carry off families at one swoop. Their mission is to destroy and to take captive with slanderous gossip and false doctrines entire sections pf people in order to decimate the body. (yes, I have met a few of those sorts of dragons)
Therefore, the six conditions listed above are descriptive of them. They have only "Tasted" the Heavenly Gift of unmerited salvation by grace alone; they have not fully experienced that. They have been enlightened by the faithful pastor who preaches his heart out every Sunday,p but it never reached their heart.
They merely "tasted" the Word of God, even memorized some verses to impress people and they have merely "tasted" of the things that shall come at the end of the Age.
In short, they have just "played church" (in one way, church is a specific culture) but have never accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. they are unable to answer affirmatively the question, "Has Jesus Christ, the Son of God risen from the dead?"
Sad to say, I have also seen the wrath of God poured out on them. It ain't pretty because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God, and because they have profaned all that is holy by their shallow belief and sideline-appearing to participate in church activities, it is impossible to have their darkened consciences renewed so that they can be saved. In fact, by their actions, they never were saved in the first place.
The seed parables are often deployed to justify ourselves and to condemn others.
The facts of soil for all people are the same. We all have sin. There is no avoiding the 'cursed ground' of the 'vile body' as I noted in my prior post in this thread. The ground of every person inclusive of every believer is that it DOES produce thorns and thistles by virtue of exposure to the LIGHT OF GODS WORDS. The tare and the wheat grow together, spiritually speaking, in the same ground.
What many fail to consider is that God Himself continues to RAIN DOWN His Abundant Living Word into the SOIL. There is a never ending stream of Living Word sown into the ground.
We who are led into belief, have, in the Spiritual senses, been seeded God in Christ who therein takes root and GROWS against the opposition contained in our flesh.
We can't isolate ourselves from the reality of having sin, which is the produce of thorns/thistles. Gods Light shines on both the good seed and the bad seed.
When we say we have no bad seed in our own ground or that our own ground is not under the curse of having sin, we have merely been led into deception and it fosters ill produce.
Jesus advised His field keepers to let BOTH grow together, lest the good seed is harmed by taking out the bad.
This is our present life in the field.
Thank you for doing your best to example the how the Greek participle works and helps to understand the phrase. I try to wrap my head around it, it's very different than English.Posted earlier
FYI not for argumentation
The Greek word παραπεσόντας you will see that it is a PARTICIPLE not STRICTLY a noun nor strictly a verb. Because it is a participle It has a hybrid, and it has elements of both. The important thing to remember in the usage of the participle is that it is showing a continuous action, and the tense of the verb part of the participle merely described the onset of the action. For example, if the tense of the verb part of the participle is present, then the action began in the present; if the tense of the verb part of the participle is aorist, or past, then the action of the verb part means that the action began at one time in the past, and is presently continuing. That is one reason why the study of Greek participles is difficult for English speakers; we have nothing similar. That is why the ESV says "then have fallen " notice that it is a past tense statement.
Yours is a correct analysis of the meaning; however it might be better to explain the differences between the cases of nouns, as well as the voices of the verbs, and why they are important.
In this case, the accusative case is the form of the NOUN that tells us "what" or "whom" did or received the action of the verb. The recipient of the action of the verb in the accusative case is always a noun and it is declined, not parsed.
When you mention "subjunctive" it refers to the MOOD of the VERB and it is the the manner we use to express something that is unreal at the present. "If it rains tomorrow..." is an example of a subjunctive because at present it is not raining.
Because the word is a participle it has only tense (aorist) and voice (active). By definition, it cannot have a mood, such as indicative or subjunctive. That is why the ESV says "then have fallen " notice that it is an active voice.
As to the meaning of the verb, it is a very powerful one:
παραπίπτω parapiptō fall away; commit apostasy
34.26 παραπίπτω; ἐκπίπτωc; ἀποστρέφομαιb; ἀφίσταμαιb (and 2nd aorist active): to abandon a former relationship or association, or to dissociate (a type of reversal of beginning to associate)—‘to fall away, to forsake, to turn away.’6 παραπίπτω: παραπεσόντας, πάλιν ἀνακαινίζειν εἰς μετάνοιαν ‘once they fall away, (it is impossible) to bring them back to repent again’ He 6:6. ἐκπίπτωc: τῆς χάριτος ἐξεπέσατε ‘you have turned away from the grace (of God)’ Ga 5:4. Note, however, that the underlying structure of the expression τῆς χάριτος ἐξεπέσατε really involves ‘turning away from God who has shown grace.’ For another interpretation of ἐκπίπτω in Ga 5:4, see 90.72. ἀποστρέφομαιb: πολὺ μᾶλλον ἡμεῖς οἱ τὸν ἀπ’ οὐρανῶν ἀποστρεφόμενοι ‘how much less (shall) we (escape) if we turn away from the one (who speaks) from heaven’ He 12:25. ἀφίσταμαιb: ἐν τῷ ἀποστῆναι ἀπὸ θεοῦ ζῶντος ‘that he will turn away from the living God’ He 3:12.
Louw-Nida
That is why the ESV says "then have fallen " because that explains the degree that they have turned their backs of God, and why it is impossible to renew them to repentance.
Well, I guess from now on you can call me strawman.I appealed to the original Greek, to show you why the new translation is correct and the KJV is wrong. You can look over that again to see, I didn't just arbitrarily pronounce one wrong and right.
If you think I am wrong, then please address the actual substance of my argument, rather than present a straw man (i.e. new translations are always right [not my argument]).
This Scripture has bugged me for a lot of years, and I think i only talked about it once here somewhere around when I first joined just about 10 years ago. I have heard people try to explain it, but they seem to have trouble with it pastors and everybody else, because of the word IMPOSSIBLE in verse 4 of Hebrews 6:4-6. Years ago Hebrews 6:4-6 use to scare me to death. Because as much as I was messing up, those Scriptures would scare me to death every time I would think of them or read them. I really can't even remember some of the things I heard pastors say on this topic. So what say some of you Holy Ghost filled Bible readers here ?
Hebrews 6:4-6King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Has the price for our redemption been paid once by Christ on the cross, ori will tell you what it means, the question is will you accept the Truth of it.
When a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, it is at that time that Jesus pays for that persons sins, He took the stripes in place of the new believer.
Then He goes to the cross and is killed for that person, dies for that person. it is because of His death on the cross that persons sins have been wiped clean, gone, cast into the sea of forgetfulness, never to be remembered again, and none of them to be brought up on Judgement Day.
This person who just accepted Him and realizes that Jesus just did these things for him, and he repents Truly in his heart, All his past sins are forgiven him.
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
This He only does ONCE for a person, not that they deserve it, it is a free gift from the Father given to us by His Sons sacrifice. Saved by Grace. The verses in Hebrews that you posted, merely teaches us that Truth. He only sacrifices His self for any given person ONLY ONCE. You can't continually put Him on the cross for every sin that you commit. He does not Pay for all the sins that you knowingly and willingly commit AFTER He has paid the price for that person past sins. He does not pay continually, He is not crucified continually. When a person accepts Him as Savior and Lord. Jesus at that time pays for that person past sins that he/she has committed. Also at the time a person freely accepts His free gift to them, He is crucified for that person so that all his/her sins that are past are forgiven. JESUS is not, nor ever will be crucified for that person over and over and over again. Nor does He pay for that persons sins over and over and over again. You will reap what you sown. Every person who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord are forgiven of all their past sin and He has paid the price, the punishment for all those same past sins. AFTER that point, you will pay for your own sins that you knowingly and willingly commit after you have recieved the forgiven. If you go about to dirty up the slate again, AFTER He has wipes the slate clean, that will be on you, not Him. NOBODY can escape "You reap what you have sown" or the verse that says "if you sow to the flesh of the flesh you shall reap corruption", somehow typical Christian feel they are excluded from these inspired by God verses, that somehow they are untouchable, they do greatly error, and there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth when the time come to suffer the punishment, when the time comes to reap what you have sown, when the Hour of Temptation arrives. email me if you have any questions. or browse the the website below.
Now how many will believe this Truth. odds are, since we are living in the last days, and the world hates the Truth, i would image only a very few will know this to be True and from God when they hear it.
You have the wrong idea smaller. The seed is what is sown in the heart, not in the body. For man believes with his heart. Ro. 10:10
He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.’' John 7:38