It isn't Islamophobia when they really are trying to kill you!

[Davies]

The Lord has truly blessed me, I'm Christian,my wife is Buddhist (but reading the Holy Bible) my daughter is Muslim (shes studying aged care at university not learning how to make pipe bombs)
My Dad was Catholic and one of my best friends is Hindu....between all of us there is no hate or animosity as some of you have shown towards each other in this thread.
Apalling...enuff from me

Paul1965,

As you have been blessed, I hope you don't think it's ok that your family doesn't share your faith. I hope they will all become Christians and find forgiveness from the only One who can provide it.

- Davies

 

[tessiewebb]

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2012/...ticism-of-obama-by-military-veterans/Facebook censors criticism of Obama by military veterans

"When Obama called the Navy Seals, they got Osama bin Laden. When the Navy Seals called Obama, they got DENIED."

“We understand that Facebook can run their site however they’d like, but when they’re trying to quietly squelch opposition to what is a clear leadership failure that resulted in the tragic deaths of some of our nation’s heroes, they deserve the to be called out on it,” said Larry Bailey, CAPT (SEAL), USN (Ret).

“We are paying advertisers on Facebook. It is outrageous that Mark Zuckerburg, founder of Facebook, who worked to elect Obama in 2008, would sell out patriots who made the ultimate sacrifice – all to serve the political ambitions of the man who let them die.”

“Americans across the country deserve the truth about what happened in Libya, and they certainly deserve to know when people who hold the keys to a lot of their online communications are trying to keep that from them,” continued Colonel Dick Brauer, Jr., USAF (Ret).

And not only vets. My sister got threatened with having her account removed when she criticized Obama and asked voters to consider writing in Ron Paul.

 

[tessiewebb]

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2012/1...-front-groups/
"Nancy Pelosi holds Democrat fundraiser with radical Muslims and terrorist front groups:

The Investigative Project on Terrorism has learned that House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi headlined a Democratic Party fundraiser with leaders of Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood front groups in May." url for: http://www.investigativeproject.org/
This story was also found at: http://patriotupdate.com/31987/pelos...-linked-groups

Now what, you might ask yourself does a democratic fundraiser do but raise funds? Why a "secret fundraiser" And if they headlined Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood front groups, who did the funds come from or JUST MAYBE who did the funds GO to???

 

[Paul1965]

Davies, I too pray that they will find the Truth and allow Jesus into their hearts and be saved, however, in the meantime there is no room for hatred, or in the case of this thread utter xenophobia.
It's interesting to note on here that many /most people posting are following US propagandists in condemning ALL Muslims as Violent murderers. While I believe all Muslims should convert, I KNOW not all are violent! I guess it's like anti-American feelings in OZ, where all Americans are viewed as REDNECK HILLBILLIES...Americans don't like being branded that way but feel it's ok to tar all and sundry with the same brush! Isn't hypocrisy a sin?

 

[Agnostic]

Actually, Islam is a perfectly sane, straightforward religion that doesn't invoke much more fear than Christianity. Both religions have equal views on their God (all knowing, powerful, the creator, etc.)

The acts of the few greatly outweigh the charity done by the many.

 

[Davies]

Davies, I too pray that they will find the Truth and allow Jesus into their hearts and be saved, however, in the meantime there is no room for hatred, or in the case of this thread utter xenophobia.
It's interesting to note on here that many /most people posting are following US propagandists in condemning ALL Muslims as Violent murderers. While I believe all Muslims should convert, I KNOW not all are violent! I guess it's like anti-American feelings in OZ, where all Americans are viewed as REDNECK HILLBILLIES...Americans don't like being branded that way but feel it's ok to tar all and sundry with the same brush! Isn't hypocrisy a sin?

Hi Paul1965,

Although I agree with you that not all Muslims are violent, and that we shouldn't judge them, I think we should be clear that the Muslim religion is not true, Hinduism is not true, and the other previously mentioned I'm not allowed to comment on. We should condemn their religion, not the person. Even those who are violent are not the enemy, but the spirit behind the mask. I'm sure there are many moral people in all the religions, and even in the Christian religion, but belief in any other God than Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or the Father as described in the Bible, will separate a person from God forever to burn in an eternal lake of fire. As gentle as I can be, I'm willing to offend out of love anyone who would disagree with the Gospel. The accusation comes up in my mind saying, 'You can't convert anyone,' but I sure can point to Jesus Christ.

We have to be gentle with our fellow wretches (brothers and sisters in Christ) also.

- Davies

 

[Paul1965]

Although I agree with you that not all Muslims are violent, and that we shouldn't judge them, I think we should be clear that the Muslim religion is not true, Hinduism is not true, and the other previously mentioned I'm not allowed to comment on. We should condemn their religion, not the person. Even those who are violent are not the enemy, but the spirit behind the mask. I'm sure there are many moral people in all the religions, and even in the Christian religion, but belief in any other God than Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or the Father as described in the Bible, will separate a person from God forever to burn in an eternal lake of fire. As gentle as I can be, I'm willing to offend out of love anyone who would disagree with the Gospel. The accusation comes up in my mind saying, 'You can't convert anyone,' but I sure can point to Jesus Christ.

We have to be gentle with our fellow wretches (brothers and sisters in Christ) also.

Utter , total, unadulterated agreement from me on these points Davies, except for "will separate a person from God forever"
Because if they convert and renounce their previous"god" , they become saved and one of GOD's children

Christian's need to realize AND remember that many atrocities have been carried out in the Name of Christ through- out history and to this day.

False interpretation or the corruption of the Lords scriptures to further a nations financial or conquestial goals are just as heinous as suicide bombings. One only has to look at the appalling treatment of Australian Aborigines at the hands of certain Christian groups throughout my birth country's early and not so early years to see that. ("You give the church ALL your land I'll give you a haircut,some nice clothes and a Bible...now go away my heathen child")

 

[Davies]

Utter , total, unadulterated agreement from me on these points Davies, except for "will separate a person from God forever"
Because if they convert and renounce their previous"god" , they become saved and one of GOD's children

Hi Paul1965,

Your right. I didn't say that very clearly. I think it would have been better stated if they die without having faith in Jesus, then they would be separated from God forever. Some people come to faith very late in life like my father-in-law. He was just a moralist, and didn't think much of Christ, standing in his own righteousness, no doubt. When I think of the crimes done in the name of Jesus, it can give Christianity a bad name and cause great harm to bringing people to Jesus, but that will not excuse people on the day of judgment. What does God say? Judgment will begin with the house of God?

1 Peter 4:17

New King James Version (NKJV)

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

- Davies

 

[The Unbeliever]

If people were able to apply Christian principles consistently, we wouldn't need police or jails. It seems to me that Christian principles have influenced us for most of America's history and has provided a great desire for people to come here. That is if you'll admit the Christian influence. Just ask any Christian who has lived in the Middle East. There is a reason they came here.

There is plenty to mar the illustrious history of Christian rule that a comparison can be made with other religions. I agree that there have been Christian influences in the formation of American jurisprudence and government, just as there has been influence from the philosophies of the Enlightenment. As for why most people want to come here, I think it has more to do with enlightenment principles and prosperity than it does with Christianity.

 

[Davies]

There is plenty to mar the illustrious history of Christian rule that a comparison can be made with other religions. I agree that there have been Christian influences in the formation of American jurisprudence and government, just as there has been influence from the philosophies of the Enlightenment. As for why most people want to come here, I think it has more to do with enlightenment principles and prosperity than it does with Christianity.

For those who have ruled and marred the Christian name, I would say they weren't Christian, at least in their actions. You can read of many martyred Christians who were labeled heretics, so many Christians suffered under what you would refer to as the illustrious history of Christian rule. As for the comparison between Christianity and other religions, they are completely different. Look around the world and describe what life is like in Muslim countries where sharia is practiced. Compare that to Western countries where Christianity has had a major influence. The contrast is stark. Much of what is considered Christian history, I am forbidden to talk about as it would be a violation of the ToS, but I do understand from an unbeliever's point of view why you would compare Christian history with that of other religions.

- Davies

 

[The Unbeliever]

For those who have ruled and marred the Christian name, I would say they weren't Christian, at least in their actions. You can read of many martyred Christians who were labeled heretics, so many Christians suffered under what you would refer to as the illustrious history of Christian rule.

Why can't any other religion do the same? None of them have been perfectly implemented.

As for the comparison between Christianity and other religions, they are completely different. Look around the world and describe what life is like in Muslim countries where sharia is practiced. Compare that to Western countries where Christianity has had a major influence.

That is more the product of historical accident than design. If you had asked me to make this same comparison during the Medieval period of Europe, Christianity would not have looked very good when placed next to Islam. As for Muslim majority countries today, I have heard plenty of Muslims complain about the governance of those countries and how they are not representative of true Islam, in almost the exact same manner that you have just disavowed the negative instances in Christianities history.

The contrast is stark. Much of what is considered Christian history, I am forbidden to talk about as it would be a violation of the ToS, but I do understand from an unbeliever's point of view why you would compare Christian history with that of other religions.

Are you referring to this paragraph in the Terms of Service:

Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature.

If so, I can just as easily limit myself to Protestantism. Whatever it takes to make the discussion easier for you.

 

[Davies]

Why can't any other religion do the same? None of them have been perfectly implemented. That is more the product of historical accident than design. If you had asked me to make this same comparison during the Medieval period of Europe, Christianity would not have looked very good when placed next to Islam. As for Muslim majority countries today, I have heard plenty of Muslims complain about the governance of those countries and how they are not representative of true Islam, in almost the exact same manner that you have just disavowed the negative instances in Christianities history.

If you look at what the Koran states, you'll see that you would be subject to dhimmitude. The verses that came later in the Koran abrogate the peaceful writings that were written earlier. So, the jihadis who are fighting violently against their enemies is perfectly legal and acceptable to their religious dictates.The violence promoted in the name of Jesus throughout the dark ages is a spot on the name of Jesus and is not consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

Are you referring to this paragraph in the Terms of Service:
If so, I can just as easily limit myself to Protestantism. Whatever it takes to make the discussion easier for you.

You would have to limit your conversation regarding Protestantism if the ToS stated so. Because I'm unable to speak on Catholicism, it makes the discussion more difficult.

- Davies

 

[The Unbeliever]

If you look at what the Koran states, you'll see that you would be subject to dhimmitude. The verses that came later in the Koran abrogate the peaceful writings that were written earlier. So, the jihadis who are fighting violently against their enemies is perfectly legal and acceptable to their religious dictates.The violence promoted in the name of Jesus throughout the dark ages is a spot on the name of Jesus and is not consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

I am familiar with what the Qur'an states, and my own status under sharia law. As for what verse abrogates what verse, isn't that a matter of interpretation? Surely someone could take the same uncharitable interpretation and apply it to the Bible with similar results. There is plenty of martial material within the pages of the Bible one could draw upon. And whether Christianity spelled it out explicitly or not, I would be in a similar situation under an explicitly Christian government, since I would be under the dictates of the Bible, a book formulated upon an understanding of the world I do not share.

You would have to limit your conversation regarding Protestantism if the ToS stated so. Because I'm unable to speak on Catholicism, it makes the discussion more difficult.

I have already stated that I was willing to do this.

Protestants happily perpetrated persecution against Catholics. Protestants were involved in the slave trade, as well as the subjugation, exploitation and sometime extermination of non-Protestant peoples, often in the name of their religion. Protestants conducted witch trials and advocating the death of heretics. Interestingly, one of the groups Protestants were initially tolerant of was Muslims. This was primarily due to the mutual enemy found in Catholicism. However, with the threat of Catholicism largely relegated to the past, even this relationship has been lost in the general pathos of intolerance that seems to make up the mindset of Protestantism. This might interest you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_and_Islam

 

[Davies]

I am familiar with what the Qur'an states, and my own status under sharia law. As for what verse abrogates what verse, isn't that a matter of interpretation? Surely someone could take the same uncharitable interpretation and apply it to the Bible with similar results. There is plenty of martial material within the pages of the Bible one could draw upon. And whether Christianity spelled it out explicitly or not, I would be in a similar situation under an explicitly Christian government, since I would be under the dictates of the Bible, a book formulated upon an understanding of the world I do not share.


I have already stated that I was willing to do this.

Protestants happily perpetrated persecution against Catholics. Protestants were involved in the slave trade, as well as the subjugation, exploitation and sometime extermination of non-Protestant peoples, often in the name of their religion. Protestants conducted witch trials and advocating the death of heretics. Interestingly, one of the groups Protestants were initially tolerant of was Muslims. This was primarily due to the mutual enemy found in Catholicism. However, with the threat of Catholicism largely relegated to the past, even this relationship has been lost in the general pathos of intolerance that seems to make up the mindset of Protestantism. This might interest you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_and_Islam

Whether it was Protestants or Catholics, unjust killing or whatever sin you can think of is unChristian. It's ironic that we can talk freely of the injustice of those who wore the Protestant cloth, but not Catholicism.

The Bible can be twisted to whatever you desire. That explains the injustice done in the name of Jesus. The Bible is subject to interpretation, but what is important to remember, is the interpretation you have right? We are likely wrong in one way or another in our interpretation of the Bible, but Jesus has sent us the Helper who would teach us all things. If you want to view Christianity to find the similarities to Islam, the one thing they have in common is they are filled with sinners.

- Davies

 

[The Unbeliever]

The Bible can be twisted to whatever you desire. That explains the injustice done in the name of Jesus. The Bible is subject to interpretation, but what is important to remember, is the interpretation you have right? We are likely wrong in one way or another in our interpretation of the Bible, but Jesus has sent us the Helper who would teach us all things. If you want to view Christianity to find the similarities to Islam, the one thing they have in common is they are filled with sinners.

This has been my argument all along, that the Qur'an and Islam are in a similar situation with regard to being interpreted by extremist views, but that these interpretations can not only be questioned, but are rejected by a large number of Muslims. To insist that Muslims must accept extremist interpretations of the Qur'an while Christians are free to reject numerous instances of similarly extremist interpretations of the Bible strikes me as hypocritical and not a little self-serving.

 

[Davies]

This has been my argument all along, that the Qur'an and Islam are in a similar situation with regard to being interpreted by extremist views, but that these interpretations can not only be questioned, but are rejected by a large number of Muslims. To insist that Muslims must accept extremist interpretations of the Qur'an while Christians are free to reject numerous instances of similarly extremist interpretations of the Bible strikes me as hypocritical and not a little self-serving.

Good morning The Unbeliever,

What you have said makes perfect sense from the unbeliever's point of view. I won't argue with that. Of course, Christians don't riot and kill people because someone makes a film about Jesus that is considered blaspheme. I never watched Jesus Christ Superstar, but the title of the movie is blasphemous. People take God's name in vain everyday, that's to include professing Christians who sin, but no man is taking them to court having put their life in the balance. There is the accounting part after you die, so you could say people are putting their own life in the balance with regards to the holiness of Jesus. There is no comparison in the doctrines of Islam and Christianity. You have to earn your ticket to paradise in Islam, in Christianity, paradise is earned for you acquired through repentance and faith in Jesus who Muslims say didn't die on the cross.

To appreciate what you have said though, if 'Christians' were to take an extreme point of view as the Muslims take their own religion, i.e. violence to spread the religion, I'd agree with you that they would by hypocrites and a lot self-serving. Though in my limited understanding of Islam, violence is not an extreme. It is practiced, all be it a minority, by millions of Muslims, not in the name of God, but Allah. They are not the same.

- Davies

 

[The Unbeliever]

What you have said makes perfect sense from the unbeliever's point of view. I won't argue with that. Of course, Christians don't riot and kill people because someone makes a film about Jesus that is considered blaspheme. I never watched Jesus Christ Superstar, but the title of the movie is blasphemous. People take God's name in vain everyday, that's to include professing Christians who sin, but no man is taking them to court having put their life in the balance. There is the accounting part after you die, so you could say people are putting their own life in the balance with regards to the holiness of Jesus. There is no comparison in the doctrines of Islam and Christianity. You have to earn your ticket to paradise in Islam, in Christianity, paradise is earned for you acquired through repentance and faith in Jesus who Muslims say didn't die on the cross.

I have already addressed this by pointing out that this has been more a matter of historical contingency than doctrinal differences. There are many examples of Christians throughout history doing precisely what Muslims have done recently. As for earning your ticket to paradise, I don't believe this holds up to actual Islamic teaching. Neither religion believes you can be saved by any other means than the mercy of God.

To appreciate what you have said though, if 'Christians' were to take an extreme point of view as the Muslims take their own religion, i.e. violence to spread the religion,

Which they have.

I'd agree with you that they would by hypocrites and a lot self-serving. Though in my limited understanding of Islam, violence is not an extreme. It is practiced, all be it a minority, by millions of Muslims, not in the name of God, but Allah. They are not the same.

I would like to suggest that you try talking to Muslims before making judgements about the religion. As for Allah and God not being the same, I would take that up with Arabic speaking Christians.

 

[Davies]

Neither religion believes you can be saved by any other means than the mercy of God.

This isn't true at all. I've listened to people who were and are Muslims for years, decades, and all of them said if they keep do what God says which means earning a place in paradise, they don't know if they will go to paradise. Yes, they have to depend on God's mercy of which there is no elaboration on the righteous means by which God forgives.

I would like to suggest that you try talking to Muslims before making judgements about the religion. As for Allah and God not being the same, I would take that up with Arabic speaking Christians.

If you knew me, you would know that I have talked with Muslims, as well as having the pleasure of working with a Muslim. You don't have to go to Arabic Christians. The description of God and Allah contrast very well.

- Davies

 

[The Unbeliever]

This isn't true at all. I've listened to people who were and are Muslims for years, decades, and all of them said if they keep do what God says which means earning a place in paradise, they don't know if they will go to paradise. Yes, they have to depend on God's mercy of which there is no elaboration on the righteous means by which God forgives.

What can I say, that has not been my experience from speaking with Muslims or reading the Qur'an. The five pillars advise Muslims on the right way to worship. They are not the means toward salvation other than being an element of obedience to God. What Christian will be saved if they reject God?

If you knew me, you would know that I have talked with Muslims, as well as having the pleasure of working with a Muslim. You don't have to go to Arabic Christians. The description of God and Allah contrast very well.

And if you knew me, I could tell you the same thing. I could also tell you that Arabic speaking Christians call God Allah.

 

[Davies]

What can I say, that has not been my experience from speaking with Muslims or reading the Qur'an. The five pillars advise Muslims on the right way to worship. They are not the means toward salvation other than being an element of obedience to God. What Christian will be saved if they reject God?

And if you knew me, I could tell you the same thing. I could also tell you that Arabic speaking Christians call God Allah.

It's one thing to refer to God as Allah, but the descriptions of Allah of the Koran and the God of the Bible are very different.

- Davies