It shall not be so among you.

[farouk]

Re: The single head/lead/senior/executive Pastor.....

@Withheld do you have anything to say that falls in line with this scripture passage?


Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

@reba :

This is great verse; among my favorites!

@handy :

Interesting also that in Acts 20, Paul charges a plurality of teaching elders to take heed to the flock.

Blessings.

 

[reba]

Re: The single head/lead/senior/executive Pastor.....

Some what of an example was set up for Moses ...

xo 18:20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
Exo 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
Exo 18:22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.
Exo 18:23 If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.

 

[Obadiah]

Re: The single head/lead/senior/executive Pastor.....

Unbelievable! Yet another thread on the same subject by the same person to rehash the same arguments again and again and again. Is this what Christianity on this forum has come to?

 

[farouk]

Re: The single head/lead/senior/executive Pastor.....

Unbelievable! Yet another thread on the same subject by the same person to rehash the same arguments again and again and again. Is this what Christianity on this forum has come to?

[MENTION=93344]Obadiah[/MENTION]:

Do I take it that the strength of your criticism lies in your disagreement with the viewpoint?

(Presumably no personal issues.)

Blessings.

 

[reba]

Re: The single head/lead/senior/executive Pastor.....

Yet we respond

 

[Obadiah]

Re: The single head/lead/senior/executive Pastor.....

Do I take it that the strength of your criticism lies in your disagreement with the viewpoint?

Neither. I think a subject is better served by discussing it in one thread instead of starting up new ones every few days with no substantial differences. I actually don't totally disagree with everything that has been said on this subject. I just disagree with the negative, black or white, my way or the highway perspective that has been presented in a number of anti church threads that have proliferated in the last week or so.

 

[handy]

Re: The single head/lead/senior/executive Pastor.....

Why do I suddenly feel as if I've stumbled into a conversation that was started a long, long time ago....

I'm going to say something astounding and horrifying.... I don't believe the Scriptures teach us anywhere that the church is bound to (as in fully expected and chained to) doing things exactly the way the apostle's and first churches did. We do need to be following the principles God laid down for the church... assembling together, loving one another, meeting the temporal needs of each other and those around us, communing with one another...

But, while there are chapter/verse texts I can point out as to God's requirements for church leaders... there are no chapter/verse texts that lay out exactly how the church is to operate.

And, this is an example of the Holy Spirit's wisdom. For what was effective in 1st century Ephesus might not be so effective in 8th century England, or 19th century China, or 21st century New York City...

 

[Deborah13]

Re: The single head/lead/senior/executive Pastor.....

Church can be wherever Jesus is. And wherever the body of Christ is, Jesus is there.

 

[Obadiah]

Re: The single head/lead/senior/executive Pastor.....

...I'm going to say something astounding and horrifying.... I don't believe the Scriptures teach us anywhere that the church is bound to (as in fully expected and chained to) doing things exactly the way the apostle's and first churches did. We do need to be following the principles God laid down for the church... assembling together, loving one another, meeting the temporal needs of each other and those around us, communing with one another...

But, while there are chapter/verse texts I can point out as to God's requirements for church leaders... there are no chapter/verse texts that lay out exactly how the church is to operate.

And, this is an example of the Holy Spirit's wisdom. For what was effective in 1st century Ephesus might not be so effective in 8th century England, or 19th century China, or 21st century New York City...

Thank you! I couldn't agree more!

 

[Obadiah]

Re: The single head/lead/senior/executive Pastor.....

Church can be wherever Jesus is. And wherever the body of Christ is, Jesus is there.

And thank you too! I couldn't agree more with this either!

 

[ejected]

Re: The single head/lead/senior/executive Pastor.....

Obadiah, how r u my kind friend. I'm sorry I rub you the wrong way. In the other thread I asked where the single paid pastor come from. No one had an answer. So I laid this question out exclusively in its own thread.
I believe this needs to be looked at. Very few on this sight is understanding the damage that has and is being done to the body of Christ because the church operates in the worlds top down pyramid authoritative system.
You said, and it sounds like with disgust, that it is unbelievable that I would start all over on this. I could say also that it's unbelievable that you cannot see at all what the word says on this, but I do not find it unbelievable, for I know how hard it is to drop the traditions of men that make null and void the clear word of God.
Sounds to me that you may have a vested interest to keep things just as they are, right or wrong. I might be wrong about that. If I am please forgive me.
If I am right in believing what Jesus said about the Nicolaitans, and the fact that He told His own not to copy the worlds authority system, then I must continue hammering at this issue. If i refuse to speak up then i will be held guilty before God. The worlds pattern is keeping the 'body' from it's inheritance. It's keeping the body dead on the vine. The Sardis church had a name saying it was alive and yet it was dead.
Some are saying the new covenant first century folks did things a certain way but it's ok if we do things our way. Tell me I didn't hear that. No, we don't have to wear sandles or ride donkeys. No one gave a fleeting comment on the article 'a True Leader', which backed concisely Jesus words to His own about a servants heart and actions.
No Obadiah, I'm not going to say 'unbelievable' that few r getting this. Men's traditions and the doctrines of men and of devils are as solid rock strongholds.....but God is still able to break them for those who r serious seekers.

 

[ejected]

Re: The single head/lead/senior/executive Pastor.....

'A Closer Look at Diotrephes'.3John.
This man made himself 'Lead Pastor' over the folks. Im sure he touted that God had made him the leader and executive pastor over them. His arrogance catapulted him above the others and then something very interesting happened and it has been continually going on for 2 thousand years. His pride took on a tone of self preservation.
John and the brethren with him were all of a sudden not welcome in Pastor Diotrephes church. They were a threat to his high handed, or is it low handed, move to the top of the heap.
I experienced this. It was hell because I thought 'what's wrong with me, what's wrong with me?'...for years.
After nineteen years at preaching to the machine I operated in a sweat shop, wondering how long I must wait before God would allow me to go out and minister, He finally allowed me to go out and confirm the things He had shown me...the 'pastors are a prideful bunch, clinging to there little corner on the market.'
2 years in a row I took my vacation time and went and held some revivals. A very long story short, God blessed with His anointing and the power of God was on display. After 2 years in a row of this the pastors put a stop to my welcome. No, i did not bully my way into their lives nor did i exalt myself in front of the 'pastor'. I treated them with respect and honor just short of treating them like royalty.
Jealousy consumed them. You see they are the big cheeses in the eyes of the congregants. If any manifestation of God was to come, it must come through them, not a worm like me. One 'pastor' actually got out of town when I came to have another week long. He was going berserk with envy. He went to a preacher friend's revival somewhere. He got up on the day I was leaving and reported how great his friend was at the other meeting. This will be another thread: why some evangelists are welcome with signs and wonders and other evangelists, like my self, with the same signs and wonders are booted out. Are there 2 different Holy Spirits? And I was not teaching the things I do now, the unscriptural exec.pastors,tithes, etc., etc..

God spoke to me and said 'you're done. Stay at your job and forget about any ministry within the body till further notice.'
God took me into the wilderness to learn of Him and His heart's desire for His people when it comes to our assemblies.
Even as pastor Diotrephes had a vested interest not to allow John to show up and expose him and his quest for power and prestige, modern 'pastors' won't even let my kind to even drive into their parking lot.
Now I know someone is going to twist this all around and hang the blame on me...'Devon, it's plain that you've been hurt and now you have a bitter spirit and yada, yada, yada!'Was I hurt and confused for years...you bet. But since I studied this mess out to find out why 'pastors' are like this....I have forgiven all the ones that have 'cast me out of the synagogue'....you know, the right foot of fellowship.
My heart now yearns for the sheep to be set free from the hirelings that 'feed on the flesh and clothe themselves with their wool.' 'They do not enter into the things of God and they hinder others from entering in.'
Read George Barna's and Frank Viola's 'Pagan Christianity' for further study. Also google truthforfree and Wicked Shepherds.
Not all that have gotten caught up into the modern pastor thing are evil. They just haven't studied it out. Many, however know the high and mighty position is a sham....but they like it. What's not to like? Prestige, money, a ton of free time. No more hot factory work.Then we beat up on the politicians for doing the same thing.
God forbid both these groups go out and have to stand behind a machine in a sweat shop for about 26 years. The hirelings operating the Deeds of the Nicolaitans will give an account. That's not what I want. That's not what Jesus wants. Judgment must begin at the house( that's us) of God in order to take us back to the new covenant prescriptions. Not sure if that is going to happen. 'Verily will I find any true faith when I return?' Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Obadiah]

Re: The single head/lead/senior/executive Pastor.....

...In the other thread I asked where the single paid pastor come from. No one had an answer.

This is not true. There were answers, even answers based on clearly quoted scripture, but you chose to either ignore or reject them. It's no wonder others in turn have chosen to ignore many of your "questions".

...Sounds to me that you may have a vested interest to keep things just as they are, right or wrong. I might be wrong about that. If I am please forgive me.

You made this same accusation of me having some sort of "vested interest" before and I already answered it. No sense in continuing to answer the same old thing over and over, is there? Asking for forgiveness isn't to be used as an excuse to keep on doing the same thing.

 

[WIP]

How would I recommend fixing it you ask, since anyone can complain, but very few like to work to fix the problem. I'd start by trying to effect change in the way people thought. I'd constantly and subtly emphasize the idea that the people are the church to the point where the idea of going to church sounds strange to all members. Additionally, I'd challenge the idea that their must be a church building that is owned by the church. Members usually have no idea how expensive paying for, operating, and maintaining church facilities can be. Much of what is collected from the church members in offerings goes to this end as oppossed to other more benevolent ends. Next, anyone that is willing to be on "staff" wouldvoluntee and be selected from among the local fellowship. The older more seasoned in the faith Christians would be looked upon to act as pastors setting an excellent example and acting as leaders among the number. Collection would be taken when needed to help meet the needs on the members who may have some issues they can't momentarily handle themselves. Only a small amout of what is collected would be paid to rent/buy a space to meet or to finance the lifestyle of those that deliver a message from the good book. The money paid would basically be a "thank you" offering for taking the extra time out of one's normal life to prepare an edifying lesson and it (the responsibility to prepare and present lessons) would be spread among the brotherhood instead of falling on 1 or a few select career preachers. We would strongly encourage each family to open their hopes to us all so that we can get personal and get more than a glimpse into each other's lives but instead really be conditioned to be fully comfortable sharing our very souls with one another. We would strive to be a community of faithful believers that leaves no sheep behind and focuses on helping one another be constantly provoked to love and good works.

Hello, TruthOverTradition. I hope you don't take this the wrong way because I really mean it to come out more positive.
So, have you done what you described above? By your own admission it sounds more like the answer is, "No." Rather than working to do what you described above it would seem you chose to abandon Christianity altogether instead. Not only does it look like you gave up on Christians but you gave up on yourself and God as well.

 

[ejected]

Wip, I love ya to death, but I cannot see the claims you make against Truth or Tradition. When one cannot answer the clear word it seems like you and my dear kind friend Obadiah go into attack mode. Did you know that liberals do that? Lets stop with it.smile.
And my kind friend Obadiah...sounds like I missed the scriptures you pointed out pointing to the modern career 'pastor'. I'll go check it out again. And again, if I'm repeating myself, that's for a clear purpose and the purpose is that few are answering the verses I put forth...as if they don't even exist.
1Cor.9 is speaking about the apostles/missionaries.
1Tm.5:17-18 uses the word honor(I'm repeating myself again), which the Greek in all cases means respect. If it meant wages Obadiah, double wages would mean what? Let scripture interpret scripture like in Acts 20 (repeating again..sorry), where Paul tells the elders 'to give is better than to receive. Work jobs so you can take care of the poor'.
That was directed at the elders. Not to the lowly sheep...as it were.
Now if a teaching elder is receiving double wages, what ever amount that means, then why would Paul tell him to get a job?
(Repeating again..I just can't help myself), 'If a man does not work he should not eat'.
Paul never equated teaching to work.
So to cap now. If Paul tells all the leaders/overseers/ and elders to work jobs Obadiah, how do u justify a guy that quits his job and commands everyone else they must work jobs and give him 10 percent of their gross? Hence the modern unscriptural 'pastor'?
Again, it looks as though there may be a place where a monetary gratuity might be in order for those that lead and teach well but by examining all these other scriptures and by laying them side by side, there is absolutely no way these verses sanction the modern day Pastor Wonderful.
Now about my piece on 'Pastor' Dyotrephes.....what say both of you? Love ya both.God keep ya.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I can think of a number of threads in the past few months alone about problems with churches, and how many (most?) seem to have lost sight of what's most important. You're certainly not the only one to see problems with many churches today. No one here is saying that nothing needs to be fixed in modern churches.
However, where we disagree is that it's wrong to attend church at all. Not all churches have the problems you are bringing up.

As for pastors being unscriptural...what about these verses:

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

You could argue that this isn't speaking about pastors, I suppose. But it sure doesn't sound like it's talking about the ruler of your country. And I doubt it's speaking about parents, considering the context of this chapter is worded like it's speaking to adult Christians.

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

In light of these scriptures I was able to look up, it seems that ordaining a pastor is, in fact, most scriptural. It seems to me that the idea of "exec. pastor" is merely a modern day title...exactly what is unscriptural about it? Please provide relevant verses that are speaking in context about pastors and church leadership.
Yes, some pastors today can be prideful and get more power than they deserve, or try to control everything unquestionably--that would presumably be why there are verses on being careful in choosing a pastor. Scripture also does seem to suggest that the job of running the church and preaching the word was never meant to be laid on one person.

 

[farouk]

I can think of a number of threads in the past few months alone about problems with churches, and how many (most?) seem to have lost sight of what's most important. You're certainly not the only one to see problems with many churches today. No one here is saying that nothing needs to be fixed in modern churches.
However, where we disagree is that it's wrong to attend church at all. Not all churches have the problems you are bringing up.

As for pastors being unscriptural...what about these verses:

You could argue that this isn't speaking about pastors, I suppose. But it sure doesn't sound like it's talking about the ruler of your country. And I doubt it's speaking about parents, considering the context of this chapter is worded like it's speaking to adult Christians.

And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

In light of these scriptures I was able to look up, it seems that ordaining a pastor is, in fact, most scriptural. It seems to me that the idea of "exec. pastor" is merely a modern day title...exactly what is unscriptural about it? Please provide relevant verses that are speaking in context about pastors and church leadership.
Yes, some pastors today can be prideful and get more power than they deserve, or try to control everything unquestionably--that would presumably be why there are verses on being careful in choosing a pastor. Scripture also does seem to suggest that the job of running the church and preaching the word was never meant to be laid on one person.

[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION]:

Those really are some great and relevant verses that you have looked up.

It's certainly important to keep going back to the Scriptures in such a way.

Acts 2.42 is a good basic guide to the essential function of how New Testament believers meet.

I can see also that with your recent church move that you described in the threads here you must have been exercised in spirit to find somewhere Scriptural where you would be fed from the Word of God.

Blessings.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

In light of these scriptures I was able to look up, it seems that ordaining a pastor is, in fact, most scriptural.

Appointing overseers from among a congregation's elders in definately scriptural. Those elders that desire to do the work of overseeing the flock desire good work. This work, however, is a bit different in what we see the position of an employed preacher/pastor. If you notice, the congregation appointed the elders (plural) from among their own number to the role of congregational overseers. Their role was to pastor, shepherd, protect, and provide excellent examples to the 'flock'.

As far as them earning a financial prophet from the work of being overseers, 1 Timothy 6:5-11 say a bit about that.

Scripture also does seem to suggest that the job of running the church and preaching the word was never meant to be laid on one person.

Great point!

 

[ejected]

quest driven...God bless you my friend. All your questions have already been answered...more than once. Go back and start reading my posts from the start. Elders grew up organically and were then recognized as such.

 

[evenifigoalone]

In light of these scriptures I was able to look up, it seems that ordaining a pastor is, in fact, most scriptural.

Appointing overseers from among a congregation's elders in definately scriptural. Those elders that desire to do the work of overseeing the flock desire good work. This work, however, is a bit different in what we see the position of an employed preacher/pastor. If you notice, the congregation appointed the elders (plural) from among their own number to the role of congregational overseers. Their role was to pastor, shepherd, protect, and provide excellent examples to the 'flock'.

May be a relevant point.
My church is currently looking for a pastor. But I assume that if the pastoral committee thought someone within the church flock was capable, they would have asked them.