It shall not be so among you.

[evenifigoalone]

quest driven...God bless you my friend. All your questions have already been answered...more than once. Go back and start reading my posts from the start. Elders grew up organically and were then recognized as such.

TBH, that's not what I'm seeing...the times I have seen you quote scripture in this thread, it's obscure and seems cherry-picked to say what you want them to say--not quite in the relevant context. But maybe I missed something. Feel free to point out relevant verses, or where you did point to relevant verses.

You'll forgive me if I don't believe everything you're trying to tell me right off the bat, because the Bible does tell us to test the spirits. And from what I am seeing, I just cannot see how your main driving point--that church buildings and pastors are unscriptural--lines up with scripture.
You do have some valid points, though, and neither I nor anyone else is denying that.

P.S.
Also keep in mind that, precisely because I am not very knowledgeable on this particular subject (how church leadership lines up with scripture), I am going to be especially careful before considering switching to another viewpoint--which means I'm not going to immediately accept something just because it's said, unless I know it's from God. The Bible does say not to be tossed about with every wind and doctrine. (Because of this, the verses I posted were as much for my own learning as they were for adding to the discussion. I tried to make sure they are in the correct context before posting them.)
This is why I am asking you to back yourself up with relevant scripture.

 

[ejected]

Questdriven, how r ya my friend. If you mean cherry pick as in picking verses that are at odds with modern churchinanity, I are guilty. I could pick other scriptures that have nothing to do with my premise but then how would that get us anywhere? I r a dummy...i know that, you dont need to tell me. please advise. Thanks.

Edited out the second paragraph

 

[Eugene]

It appears there have always been them that care what I do. Judas certainly had reason to worry about the money purse.

Luke 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: Luke 10:42 Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Php 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Would I deny my past ninety-four year old pastor working sixteen hours a days and giving four different sermons or teachings a week enough to live on? To naysayers promoting division I would advise them that are not being fed where they are seeking something that soothes their itching ears.

Is money your love, church buildings wrong, and brethren not to your liking; there may still be very odorous cow pastures left somewhere to fellowship in summer, and brush harbors in winter.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Questdriven, how r ya my friend. If you mean cherry pick as in picking verses that are at odds with modern churchinanity, I are guilty. I could pick other scriptures that have nothing to do with my premise but then how would that get us anywhere? I r a dummy...i know that, you dont need to tell me. please advise. Thanks.
Now. If you have a teachable spirit and you have a hunger to go deeper with Christ, may I point you to a few good study sites.. Google truthforfree and Wicked Shepherds. Don't let the title scare you. The word does say that many will rise up and steal away many of the flock. These are those who, as Dyotrephes, elevate themselves above God's people..for pay. Hirelings, wolves in sheep's clothing. Strong words I know...written 2000 years before I was even a thought.

Again, if you have any, release provide relevant scripture to back yourself up. This is a discussion, so I expect it to be treated as one. This means that questions will be asked, and it is expected that they be answered. If you cannot back yourself up, what reason have I to listen? I don't care what some website says--on spiritual matters like this, if there are no relevant, in-context scripture that it is basing its arguments on, it means little.

 

[evenifigoalone]

In light of these scriptures I was able to look up, it seems that ordaining a pastor is, in fact, most scriptural.

Appointing overseers from among a congregation's elders in definately scriptural. Those elders that desire to do the work of overseeing the flock desire good work. This work, however, is a bit different in what we see the position of an employed preacher/pastor. If you notice, the congregation appointed the elders (plural) from among their own number to the role of congregational overseers. Their role was to pastor, shepherd, protect, and provide excellent examples to the 'flock'.

May be a relevant point.
My church is currently looking for a pastor. But I assume that if the pastoral committee thought someone within the church flock was capable, they would have asked them.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them.

 

[CORE]

It appears there have always been them that care what I do. Judas certainly had reason to worry about the money purse.

Luke 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: Luke 10:42 Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Php 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Would I deny my past ninety-four year old pastor working sixteen hours a days and giving four different sermons or teachings a week enough to live on? To naysayers promoting division I would advise them that are not being fed where they are seeking something that soothes their itching ears.

Is money your love, church buildings wrong, and brethren not to your liking; there may still be very odorous cow pastures left somewhere to fellowship in summer, and brush harbors in winter.

Well that certainly puts things into perspective...Php 1:18 especially.

Thanks...

 

[reba]

Questdriven, how r ya my friend. If you mean cherry pick as in picking verses that are at odds with modern churchinanity, I are guilty. I could pick other scriptures that have nothing to do with my premise but then how would that get us anywhere? I r a dummy...i know that, you dont need to tell me. please advise. Thanks.
Now. If you have a teachable spirit and you have a hunger to go deeper with Christ, may I point you to a few good study sites.. Google truthforfree and Wicked Shepherds. Don't let the title scare you. The word does say that many will rise up and steal away many of the flock. These are those who, as Dyotrephes, elevate themselves above God's people..for pay. Hirelings, wolves in sheep's clothing. Strong words I know...written 2000 years before I was even a thought.

Quest is very teachable and wonderful Child of God. Just as the rest of God's kids you do not have all the right answers.
The, almost sugar coated, insults you throw around here are not welcome. The posts I find, with sure insults will be abruptly edited/infracted. The hate filled sites you suggest may be the place you need to be. reba

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

May be a relevant point. My church is currently looking for a pastor. But I assume that if the pastoral committee thought someone within the church flock was capable, they would have asked them.

I believe that one of the issues with searching out a pastor in this day and age is that the current definition of pastor is quite different than what is described in scripture. Today, pastors generally refers to the preachers as oppose the team of mature christian overseers from within a congregation that works together to lead the flock of which they are a part. In scripture, words like pastor, bishop, presbyter (sp?), and elder were synonomous is describing the work of pastoring.

Looking at the NT texts, it seems clear that congregations were to have pastors, however, the same cannot be said for having localized preachers that were paid to deliver sermons to the congregation as the major part of their job description. The preacher/evangelist role that we see described in scripture shows readers individuals that traveled spreading the gospel message as opposed to localized employees of a church that "preached to the choir."

So instead of today's churches looking for a pastor (meaning preacher, I assume), they would do well to look to the scriptures such as 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9 so they can get the role of pastor filled properly. After doing that, congregations should then consider why it is that they feel (other than tradition) that the role of dedicated weekly sermonator is needed within the number.

 

[reba]

After doing that, congregations should then consider why it is that they feel
(other than tradition) that the role of dedicated weekly sermonator is needed
within the number.

Some pastors may be just a weekly sermonator, there are good guys and bad guys in everything.... Beings my dad was pastor I can tell you a real pastor does so much more than a weekly sermon....

Getting calls in the middle of the night for couples fighting, hospital ER, deaths and births..... that is just the middle of the night...

When the volunteers don't show up to clean the building guess who does that ... Shoveling the snow from the walk... Starting the fire to help the heat system on those extra cold mornings...

When he no longer needed a 'real job' he could welcome folks to drop by the office any time.... Weekly sermon? Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night Bible Study, no canned sermons....
Not all people fit into the boxes we have fixed in our heads to hold them...

Often pastors are put in the middle of, Sister Sally being upset that Sister Alice rolled her eyes at her potato salad.... For the man that is doing his job it is not a sermon once a week.

 

[Eugene]

Some pastors may be just a weekly sermonator

That's the difference in just being a preacher or a shepherd. You cannot buy that dedication, but we can support them to the glory of God.

 

[WIP]

Wip, I love ya to death, but I cannot see the claims you make against Truth or Tradition. When one cannot answer the clear word it seems like you and my dear kind friend Obadiah go into attack mode. Did you know that liberals do that? Lets stop with it.smile.

As I pointed out in my post I was not trying to attack TruthOverTradition but to understand his reasoning. TruthOverTradition has identified himself as non-Christian and has told us he left the faith and now he is sharing how we should evoke change. Therefore, I am asking why he didn't do precisely what he is telling us we need to do but instead chose to just leave?

Also, I think TruthOverTradition is fully capable of responding on his own?

 

[evenifigoalone]

Sheesh, complicated...
One guy one of the church leaders found while on a missions trip and brought him back here, and he's been preaching sermons Sunday mornings. He has to go back to his church in a couple weeks, though. But he's really good. My youth leader is on the committee looking for a pastor, and he said they liked this guy--except he might not really be available and he still has another year of seminary left.

Whether my church could be run better or not--heck I have no frickin' clue--I think they at least serve the most important purposes. I have not seen or heard anything that concerns me or that would make me consider leading.

 

[Obadiah]

a real pastor does so much more than a weekly sermon

You sure hit the nail on the head with that one. It's obvious that those here who keep belittling today's pastors have no clue what these people do or why it is scriptural to take care of them in return. No clue at all. It seems to me their real goal is to destroy the church by cutting off it's leadership so it will descend into chaos. This is what happened with every group I was ever involved with that was organized (or NOT organized) the way they say it should be done.

 

[farouk]

Sheesh, complicated...
One guy one of the church leaders found while on a missions trip and brought him back here, and he's been preaching sermons Sunday mornings. He has to go back to his church in a couple weeks, though. But he's really good. My youth leader is on the committee looking for a pastor, and he said they liked this guy--except he might not really be available and he still has another year of seminary left.

Whether my church could be run better or not--heck I have no frickin' clue--I think they at least serve the most important purposes. I have not seen or heard anything that concerns me or that would make me consider leading.

[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION]:

Sorry, did you mean leading or leaving?

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

a real pastor does so much more than a weekly sermon

You sure hit the nail on the head with that one. It's obvious that those here who keep belittling today's pastors have no clue what these people do or why it is scriptural to take care of them in return. No clue at all. It seems to me their real goal is to destroy the church by cutting off it's leadership so it will descend into chaos. This is what happened with every group I was ever involved with that was organized (or NOT organized) the way they say it should be done.

[MENTION=93344]Obadiah[/MENTION]: mentioning the plurality of people engaged in New Testament passages in leadership activities in the local church is not belittling anyone. (Or maybe you weren't actually suggesting this.)

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Sheesh, complicated...
One guy one of the church leaders found while on a missions trip and brought him back here, and he's been preaching sermons Sunday mornings. He has to go back to his church in a couple weeks, though. But he's really good. My youth leader is on the committee looking for a pastor, and he said they liked this guy--except he might not really be available and he still has another year of seminary left.

Whether my church could be run better or not--heck I have no frickin' clue--I think they at least serve the most important purposes. I have not seen or heard anything that concerns me or that would make me consider leading.

[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION]:

Sorry, did you mean leading or leaving?

Blessings.

Leaving. Stupid spelling errors. xD

 

[farouk]

Sheesh, complicated...
One guy one of the church leaders found while on a missions trip and brought him back here, and he's been preaching sermons Sunday mornings. He has to go back to his church in a couple weeks, though. But he's really good. My youth leader is on the committee looking for a pastor, and he said they liked this guy--except he might not really be available and he still has another year of seminary left.

Whether my church could be run better or not--heck I have no frickin' clue--I think they at least serve the most important purposes. I have not seen or heard anything that concerns me or that would make me consider leading.

@questdriven :

Sorry, did you mean leading or leaving?

Blessings.

Leaving. Stupid spelling errors. xD

Thought this may have been what you meant.

(Having made such an effort and having sought the Lord's will about a spiritual home where you could feed on God's Word, I didn't have the impression you were now about to leave...)

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Sheesh, complicated...
One guy one of the church leaders found while on a missions trip and brought him back here, and he's been preaching sermons Sunday mornings. He has to go back to his church in a couple weeks, though. But he's really good. My youth leader is on the committee looking for a pastor, and he said they liked this guy--except he might not really be available and he still has another year of seminary left.

Whether my church could be run better or not--heck I have no frickin' clue--I think they at least serve the most important purposes. I have not seen or heard anything that concerns me or that would make me consider leading.

@questdriven :

Sorry, did you mean leading or leaving?

Blessings.

Leaving. Stupid spelling errors. xD

Thought this may have been what you meant.

(Having made such an effort and having sought the Lord's will about a spiritual home where you could feed on God's Word, I didn't have the impression you were now about to leave...)

Blessings.

I'm not. I love it at my church.

 

[Obadiah]

@Obadiah : mentioning the plurality of people engaged in New Testament passages in leadership activities in the local church is not belittling anyone. (Or maybe you weren't actually suggesting this.) Blessings.

No it's not, and that wasn't what I was talking about. Surely you have read more than that in this thread. Others certainly have. I agree 100% that there can be more than one leader as long as God has provided that many.

 

[farouk]

I'm not. I love it at my church.

[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION]:

From what you've said in various posts, I can well believe that you do, and that it seems to be giving you a real opportunity to flourish. (Not just receiving, but giving: fellowship is a two-way thing, of course.)

Blessings.