It shall not be so among you.

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: Go to church?

It's for the love of His body I stick my neck out to teach these truths.

But it must be done in a loving (not harmful) way.

Condescention is not one of those ways. Very few people can be shamed into the truths of God. Those who can be are the ripe pickings of cult groups.

To be so against control (rightfully so), but then to turn right around and use controling ways is just not right.

 

[ejected]

Re: Go to church?

Whenever two or three of you come together in My name, I am there with you. (Matthew 18:20 CEV)

We must be completely clear as to what it is that God is particularly concerned with at this time in the world's history, and, therefore, what it is that we who are the Lord's children are called unto. The thing that God is doing in this dispensation is the formation of a spiritual and heavenly Israel. In doing that He is repeating the laws of the old Israel in a spiritual way. He is following along the lines of His ways with the old Israel, but now on a heavenly and not an earthly basis, because, while God's methods may change, His principles are changeless. He has left the earthly basis of the Old Testament and has moved on to a heavenly basis in the New Testament. He has moved from the temporal to the spiritual, and the spiritual is far greater than the temporal...

And that leads us to that wonderful revelation which we have in the New Testament - the revelation of Christ and all His members being made one Temple for God. Christ is our Temple, and in Him we find all that a temple was ever intended to be. Oh, how people have gone astray over this! We go to many places that are called "churches" and the word is applied to the building. When people pray in those places they usually say something like this: "We have come into Thy house today. We are in this house of God." They are really talking about a building. But we don't need a building to give God a temple! "Where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). People gathered into Jesus Christ constitute the Temple of God. It is not a special building, but people who are in Christ Jesus. This is what God is doing in this dispensation.

By T. Austin-Sparks from: The On-High Calling - Chapter 1

 

[jasoncran]

Re: Go to church?

and that is revalant how? did you not call all of us brethren? if a bunch of us meet in a building we built for church or a home what does it matter. and I know of one church that is big now but started in the pastors house.

 

[Obadiah]

Re: Go to church?

It is not a special building...

And how many of us have told you how many times now that we DON'T see it this way, yet you keep on harping and harping about this. What do you care if some of us spent time this morning worshiping God and having a time of fellowship in a building called a church, a temple, an auditorium, or in a building called a house? Quite frankly, it's NONE of your business and NOT your place to condemn us for it. You have been shown and ignored many scriptures in a few different threads in these forums indicating there is nothing wrong with this. Try looking at God's word for what it really says instead of just pulling certain passages out of context to fit your own prejudices. There's nothing wrong with Christians meeting for worship and fellowship in someone's home if that is practical for them and it is what they want to do, but the fact that this is what you prefer doesn't give you the right to judge the rest of us. Writing the words "I love you brother" over and over before you judge and condescend doesn't change this.

 

[farouk]

Re: Go to church?

Hebrews 10: 24-25

24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching./(NIV)

Luke 4: 16

16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read,/(NIV)

Luke 24: 51-53

51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God./(NIV)

What are we to do with these scriptures? Throw them out?

Great verses also, and relevant ones.

Blessings.

 

[CORE]

Jesus is a perfect leader. He tells us to take up our cross and follow him not take up our cross and go. And what did he do but take up our cross for us. What a leader!

Good point...and all His apostles took up their cross. They lived "miserable" lives ( at least in the eyes of the world) and all but one (as far as I know) where martyred...hardly the role of a leader in today's "church." For the most part it all seems to be about the glory today...

The church needs to downsize and humble itself, before God humbles it for us...and to be honest, He already has to a point.

 

[evenifigoalone]

At my old church, the pastor refused to be paid for a long time. Later on he only started asking for money for gas, since he lives quite a distance from the church. (It's about an hour drive from where he lives to the church.) It was put up to a vote and the congregation agreed unanimously.
They tried to run the church according to scripture, and they seemed to do well in that respect, anyway. (Although I don't think it's wrong for a pastor to get paid. But this pastor was apparently able to do both his work at church and his job, maybe because it was always such a small church. Later on he began living on his retirement. So he had no need to be paid.)
However, I left. Because the preaching was just the same legalistic drivel over and over again. I couldn't get anything out of that.


Personally, I can't see anything wrong with attending a church for fellowship, edification, and ministry. Especially when the Bible tells us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together for that purpose.
Are some run moreso with money in mind than anything? Definitely. Are some run by pastors who act like they have more authority than they actually do? Definitely. There are churches to avoid. At the same time, though, no church is going to be perfect. I'm satisfied with my current church. I receive fellowship and edification there and I also have some opportunity to help reach out to the community.
Even if a church isn't perfect and there are things that could be improved, it is serves it's main purposes, I'd think that's the most important thing.

 

[farouk]

At my old church, the pastor refused to be paid for a long time. Later on he only started asking for money for gas, since he lives quite a distance from the church. (It's about an hour drive from where he lives to the church.) It was put up to a vote and the congregation agreed unanimously.
They tried to run the church according to scripture, and they seemed to do well in that respect, anyway. (Although I don't think it's wrong for a pastor to get paid. But this pastor was apparently able to do both his work at church and his job, maybe because it was always such a small church. Later on he began living on his retirement. So he had no need to be paid.)
However, I left. Because the preaching was just the same legalistic drivel over and over again.


Personally, I can't see anything wrong with attending a church for fellowship, edification, and ministry. Especially when the Bible tells us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together for that purpose.
Are some run moreso with money in mind than anything? Definitely. Are some run by pastors who act like they have more authority than they actually do? Definitely. There are churches to avoid. At the same time, though, no church is going to be perfect. I'm satisfied with my current church. I receive fellowship and edification there and I also have some opportunity to help reach out to the community.

[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION]:

Yes, fellowship at a local church should really mean a spiritual home. John's First Epistle has references to fellowship, which make a good word study.

Actually I can deeply respect preachers who live sacrificial lives, and are most definitely not in it for the money; while the question of whether I may feel that they are always successful in preaching accurately from particular passages, is a separate matter, really.

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

On another note...
So, having a small church group like at a house seems to be what the OP thinks is more scriptural? If that was an option, I may have considered it.
Actually, I used to attend a girl's Bible study at someone's house before they moved away. But that was in addition to attending church.

But IDK, with a church assembly, seems like there's more and better opportunity for outreach and raising up money for outreach purposes.

 

[farouk]

On another note...
So, having a small church group like at a house seems to be what the OP thinks is more scriptural? If that was an option, I may have considered it.
Actually, I used to attend a girl's Bible study at someone's house before they moved away. But that was in addition to attending church.

But IDK, with a church assembly, seems like there's more and better opportunity for outreach and raising up money for outreach purposes.

[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION]:

A local church consists of Christian people, gathered in a common purpose (Acts 2.42), and it's good to have a cross-section, rather than a clique.

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

On another note...
So, having a small church group like at a house seems to be what the OP thinks is more scriptural? If that was an option, I may have considered it.
Actually, I used to attend a girl's Bible study at someone's house before they moved away. But that was in addition to attending church.

But IDK, with a church assembly, seems like there's more and better opportunity for outreach and raising up money for outreach purposes.

[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION]:

A local church consists of Christian people, gathered in a common purpose (Acts 2.42), and it's good to have a cross-section, rather than a clique.

Blessings.

Plus, how many people looking for a church are likely to seek out or know about a little church at someone's house?

 

[farouk]

On another note...
So, having a small church group like at a house seems to be what the OP thinks is more scriptural? If that was an option, I may have considered it.
Actually, I used to attend a girl's Bible study at someone's house before they moved away. But that was in addition to attending church.

But IDK, with a church assembly, seems like there's more and better opportunity for outreach and raising up money for outreach purposes.

@questdriven :

A local church consists of Christian people, gathered in a common purpose (Acts 2.42), and it's good to have a cross-section, rather than a clique.

Blessings.

Plus, how many people looking for a church are likely to seek out or know about a little church at someone's house?

@questdriven :

I do think the building is at best a convenience. It really revolves around people.

If a hypothetically hostile government decided to tax church buildings out of viable existence, for example, it wouldn't alter the essential nature of a local church being people motivated by precious doctrine about the Lord Jesus.

Blessings.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Re: Go to church?

Hebrews 10: 24-25

24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching./(NIV)

Luke 4: 16

16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read,/(NIV)

Luke 24: 51-53

51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God./(NIV)

What are we to do with these scriptures? Throw them out?

Great verses also, and relevant ones.

Blessings.

We must be careful not to equate meeting together with going to some formalized corporate church service (going to church). The Hebrew text was not written in such a way that it even referred to what we would describe as a church service. What the text is though is a testament to the importance of the saints reliance on one another for love and encouragement in light of their calling and the times.

The Luke 24 text doesn't mention a corporate church 'worship service' either. It simply chronicals the events surrounding Jesus' ascension. His disciples are said to have witnessed it and after doing so bowed low to Him (which is what worship means) and after that went to and tarried at the Jewish holy place where they apparently praised God for the saviour they witnessed and the gospel He declared.

 

[farouk]

Re: Go to church?

Hebrews 10: 24-25

24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching./(NIV)

Luke 4: 16

16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read,/(NIV)

Luke 24: 51-53

51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God./(NIV)

What are we to do with these scriptures? Throw them out?

Great verses also, and relevant ones.

Blessings.

We must be careful not to equate meeting together with going to some formalized corporate church service (going to church). The Hebrew text was not written in such a way that it even referred to what we would describe as a church service. What the text is though is a testament to the importance of the saints reliance on one another for love and encouragement in light of their calling and the times.

The Luke 24 text doesn't mention a corporate church 'worship service' either. It simply chronicals the events surrounding Jesus' ascension. His disciples are said to have witnessed it and after doing so bowed low to Him (which is what worship means) and after that went to and tarried at the Jewish holy place where they apparently praised God for the saviour they witnessed and the gospel He declared.

Hebrews 10.25 sums it up, really:

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

[evenifigoalone]

The Bible says to assemble together for the purpose of fellowship...it just doesn't give instructions on how to do that.
So I cannot see how attending a church is wrong, as long as you're doing it for the right purposes and as long as it adequately serves those purposes.

IMO, if the Bible was explicitly against gathering in a church building, it would have said so. Just because it doesn't specifically mention something doesn't mean it's a no go.
There are churches that are against using music for worship simply because the NT does not mention using music in worship--while they are free to worship that way if they want to, I just can't follow that logic.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Re: Go to church?

sums it up, really: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Where must these meetings occur? How many must be present? What day(s) of the week must thery be convened? Can the exhortation of Hebrews be followed without the formalized church services we are all familiar with?

 

[farouk]

Re: Go to church?

sums it up, really: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Where must these meetings occur? How many must be present? What day(s) of the week must thery be convened? Can the exhortation of Hebrews be followed without the formalized church services we are all familiar with?

Acts 2.42 is a useful summary.

 

[Obadiah]

Re: Go to church?

Where must these meetings occur? How many must be present? What day(s) of the week must thery be convened?

As you already know, scripture doesn't give any commands on these things. We can meet anywhere that is practical for that particular group, with whatever number of people happen to show, on any day at any time that works for the people involved. If you have 1000 people meeting on Sunday mornings in a large building that was built primarily for that purpose there is nothing wrong with that. (How many people did Jesus meet with the times he multiplied the fish and bread?) Those meeting in what we consider traditional church settings have no scriptural basis to condemn those who meet with only a handful of other people in someone's home. If you have a group of 4 or 5 who meet in someone's home on a Thursday evening, there's nothing wrong with that either, and they also have no scriptural basis to condemn those who meet in more traditional church settings. Both situations have their strong points and both have their weaknesses. Neither situation is unscriptural.

Can the exhortation of Hebrews be followed without the formalized church services we are all familiar with?

Yes it can, just as it also can also be followed WITH the formalized church services we are all familiar with. Just because there can be different ways to do something doesn't always mean only one way is right and the other way must be wrong.

 

[reba]

Re: Go to church?

[MENTION=93344]Obadiah[/MENTION] sheesh guy what does common sense have to do with Scripture?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Re: Go to church?

Those meeting in what we consider traditional church settings have no scriptural basis to condemn.....

This is one of the issues that needs to have some attention paid to it. I fully agree with what you stated however, in reality, the church does not practice this teaching. Instead, the church is in the habit of misusing texts like Hebrews 10:25 to say that member MUST go to church and they define going to church in terms of the formalized Sunday and Wednesday gatherings at their selected "places of worship". They go further off track by consistantly saying things in their Sunday meetings like: "it's good to be together in the house of the Lord". Such a statement directly implies that the place of the gathering is somehow holy and similar to a pagan temple and this statement is consistantly uttered and promoted despite the fact that the Bible clearly says that God does not dwell in temples made with hands! The audacity of the formalized, corporate, heirarchial church in such matters is what is highly objectionable.

If you have a group of 4 or 5 who meet in someone's home on a Thursday evening, there's nothing wrong with that either, and they also have no scriptural basis to condemn those who meet in more traditional church settings. Both situations have their strong points and both have their weaknesses. Neither situation is unscriptural.

Traditional church settings that promotes a clergy/laity divide, mandates certain ceremonial 'acts of worships', and condemns those who are not obedient participants in the corporate hierarchial church structure that is so pervasive is in fact unscriptural.