It shall not be so among you.

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry Jethro you think my posts are hiccups.

No, that's not what I meant, lol.

What I meant was you speak accurately about the NT style of meeting/ worship, but it's like a hiccup that interrupts otherwise normal and valuable speech when you share what you think about NT authority and leadership.

I agree with everything you have said but I take exception to when you said you are not an elder, which simply means older, more mature, more experienced in the things of God.

Well, I'm kinda going by what the NT says about the required qualities of an elder (Titus 1:6-9 NASB). My kids don't believe. I can be overbearing and insensitive sometimes. Rarely quick tempered anymore, but still can get provoked every once in a great while. Especially by bratty young believers.

I told my wife I realized I would not want me to be my pastor over me. If you could be a fly on the wall in my house you'd probably not want one of your elder/pastors to have the critical spirit I sometimes have about some people, nor one who occasionally pees in the bushes outside 'cause he's too lazy to go inside to do it (besides, it's kind of fun, lol). And my sense of humor can get kind of loose sometimes--what the NIV calls 'coarse joking' (Ephesians 5:4 NIV). Not dirty or obscene, just less strict than you'd expect an elder/pastor to have. Do you really want an elder/pastor like that? I don't. I've learned to just recognize what I really am in the body of Christ and live with it (Romans 12:3 NIV).

Are you able to give sound scriptural advice to the new bees?

Depends on who you ask, lol!

Are you living a sound example before The Lord?

Yeah, I think so. Besides the occasional side tracks I just mentioned.

You said you were Under a pastor. Now I realize that what we were born into and trained in is a very hard thing to shake. You are not Under any man. You are under Christ only.

This is one of those hiccups I was talking about.

My pastor in the NT style church I attended was my Father and mentor in the faith, in much the same way Paul was to Timothy. That's a very clearly recognized relationship of superior to subordinate found in the Bible. You resist that relationship should exist in the church.

About a workable body. 2or 3 family's at most so all can partake in ministry. That' one reason they met in homes.

This could be a discussion within itself, but I maintain that a group of 40 to 60 people could function in a NT style meeting. Less than 15-20 people and you start losing some of the required components of the body of Christ.

IMO, it's a combination of the structure of church leadership, in a publicly accessible and visible meeting place as possible (NO big budgets, if at all), operated within the open concept of a home meeting. It's the best of all that we know that can be done now, from the idea of the structured leadership concept of the traditional church, down to the elements of the informal home meeting, bringing all these valuable pieces together under the NT guidelines for the meeting of the saints. Do that and, IMO, you have what God intended for his people, and which best meets the needs of the saints and builds them up.

 

[ejected]

So is a hiccup a good or a bad thing. Help the ole man out here.

 

[ejected]

Don't live with it...do something about it...I exhort you........in love.......but sharply.....how am I doing.

 

[ejected]

How do you guys pull a quote from another posting and then answer it...don' tease...i are old. My excuse.

 

[ejected]

Getting 40 folks into one small home would be hard. Not sure what u mean by components. I have maintained the emphasis of elders it's not control, or lording it over.

 

[ejected]

Also I totally disagree with your 40people component deal. Your Jesus said 'where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my Name, I will be in your midst'. That debunks your premise, with all due respect bro..He can manifest the spiritual functions in a few or even one...like Paul for about 17 years before he hooked up with the Jerusalem 'church'.

 

[ejected]

When anyone experiences Paul's organic fellowship they never are satisfied with modern church again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So is a hiccup a good or a bad thing. Help the ole man out here.

In this case, a not so good thing.

The leadership in the church must have power to go with their authority. We see the NT church leadership does indeed have this power in the Bible.

But like all things, the extremes are what's wrong. It's wrong to strip them of all their power, and it's wrong for leadership to lord it over the flock.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Don't live with it...do something about it...I exhort you........in love.......but sharply.....how am I doing.

We'll see.

It'll take a credible, influential, gifted pastor/elder who has the vision for 1 Corinthians 12 & 14 to get me back into hoping for the movement to spring up in the church today. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Getting 40 folks into one small home would be hard.

That's why I said a 1 Corinthians 14 meeting should meet in a publicly accessible building.\

Most homes just aren't suitable for the numbers of people needed to make that meeting as effective as it can be.

Not sure what u mean by components.

The parts of the Body and the various giftings they perform.

IMO, you'll need 40 to 60 people to expect to have a complete functioning of ministry in God's gifts, and people to benefit from them.

I have maintained the emphasis of elders it's not control, or lording it over.

But it most definitely has to be understood that they are 'over' those whom they have been entrusted with, for all that truly means in the Body of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Also I totally disagree with your 40people component deal. Your Jesus said 'where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my Name, I will be in your midst'. That debunks your premise, with all due respect bro..He can manifest the spiritual functions in a few or even one...like Paul for about 17 years before he hooked up with the Jerusalem 'church'.

Note that the specific context of Jesus' 'two or three' teaching is forgiveness. That helps us understand that he is not talking about how we can do practical things like fulfill a 1 Corinthians 14 meeting with just two people, but rather how we can act authoritatively on behalf of God and his will in this world.

He backs up the witness of two or more people who come into agreement with God's will in this world. Forgiveness is probably the primary example of when he does this. As ambassadors of Christ in this world, we have the power to act on behalf of God in the authority and power of God in regard to forgiveness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When anyone experiences Paul's organic fellowship they never are satisfied with modern church again.

I say this to people all the time.

That's why I'm presently church-less at this time. I simply am no longer able to settle for less than what I know can and will happen in a meeting of believers that is conducted in the pattern and freedom of 1 Corinthians 14. It's that powerful. It's that real. It truly is how the church is to experience all that it longs and grasps for in it's traditional style of meeting/worship. But which remains frustratingly out of reach.

 

[WIP]

I wonder. Are we on the same page with our definition of "leader?" I don't see a leader as someone who invokes control over his/her subordinates. I see a leader as someone who the subordinates look up to for guidance and direction, not out of fear but out of respect. I've always described a leader as, "Someone that will not demand others go where they themselves are not willing to go."

In our church we don't have a body of "elders" that lead the congregation but a council and for the most part the council is comprised of elders in our church. There are certain members of our congregation that stand out in such a way they command a certain amount of respect above others. By using the word command I am not infirring that they force or demand the respect but they have a certain amount of carrisma that just draws people to listen when they speak. These fellows are our more mature members of the congregation and when they speak it just seems to draw your attention, even drawing the attention of the pastor. Maybe its their advanced years but I think it is God-given wisdom.

 

[WIP]

Jesus is a perfect leader. He tells us to take up our cross and follow him not take up our cross and go. And what did he do but take up our cross for us. What a leader!

 

[ejected]

2 or 3 gathered in His Name to forgive someone only is quite the stretch. You mean once the 2 or 3 forgive someone , Christ gets the heck out of Dodge. Please.

About an individual who has charisma and is able to teach or exhort. wonderful. But we must unlearn some false forms. every member of His body is to develop their function and then have the freedom to minister that function. the folks need to be taught how the early 'church' functioned. It is totally foreign to them. churches do not operate according to Paul's teaching. someone has to teach them other wise all the churches will remain out of God's divine order, which robs the body of all His riches in Christ Jesus, His Spirit will continually be quenched, and the folks will stay dead on the vine. The following is the trouble in simple terms:

The Monster!
Funny looking varmint I saw today, a creature like a science fiction movie display:
no legs, no arms, no sinews, no bands; no bones, no hair, no feet and no hands;
no torso, no neck, no nose, no eyes; so what was this monster that caused me surprise?;
twas the 'church' I beheld that brought me to tears, one single mouth and a whole bunch of ears!;

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I wonder. Are we on the same page with our definition of "leader?" I don't see a leader as someone who invokes control over his/her subordinates. I see a leader as someone who the subordinates look up to for guidance and direction, not out of fear but out of respect.

I think we can learn the most about what NT leadership looks like in the Father/ children relationship Paul had with the churches.

 

[ejected]

Hello Edward, Jetho said something about it. Wish I knew how bring forward a quote. Maybe I can't on an iPad.

 

[ejected]

Jethro, i'm not talking about those that lead by example. I'm talking about 'every member ministry'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, i'm not talking about those that lead by example. I'm talking about 'every member ministry'.

'Every member' ministry still has to have effective leadership.

The problem with home churches, for example, is they usually lack Biblical leadership. That's also often true for extra-curricular Bible studies and meetings in our traditional churches.

 

[reba]

[MENTION=96739]Withheld[/MENTION] if you have a ministry and talk down to and about the folks the way you do those here I would have no part of it. The way I read some of these post you are exactly everything your fighting against .