It shall not be so among you.

[jasoncran]

Edward, how are you my kind friend. Read those chapters again then tell us what verse or verses describes the executive pastor that is in charge giving directives or permission to the folks to minister. I submit that Jesus is the only true Head.
Elders maintained order and watched for error, but the folks were free to minister as the Spirit directed. Few on this site can hardly believe that the Holy Spirit is able to maintain order. Problems will arise, that's where the elders give guidance, other wise they stay off the soap box and out of the way...don't hog the show(read 3 John about Diotrephes who wanted to lead and control, lord it over.)We just cannot believe that if we tried to do things God's way, He would not be able to handle it.

i beg to differ. i was raised in the pentacostal churches one of them had three hour worship services. the pastor a woman was able to as led by the holy spirit to operate in myraids of gifts. which usually were three. tongues and interpretation, prophecy and also words of knowledge. she also didn't hog the show but did stop the flesh when she saw it.

 

[farouk]

Deborah, great scripture choices. Bishops, pastors, teachers, elders are all synonymous. These are the older, more mature and learned. They've been around the block a few times. Poi men: shepherd: pastors---plural, not singular. They cared for the needs of the flock of which they were a part of...they had the trained wisdom and knowledge.
They were not offices, noun, they were functions, verb.
Jesus does not ordain a 'pastor', singular, They grow up and into the shepherding functions organically, not by an organization and ordination services.
Pray for those with these spiritual gifts but don' elevate them to a higher sainthood level like that one church does.

Great post!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, how r u my friend. There r other verses as well that, in the English, say the elders have a special kind of authority over other believers. The words submit, rule, obey, etc.. Look past the English unto the Greek and you'll get a totally different take. The verse you quoted ' obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves..'.And the Greek: 'be persuaded by them that lead/guide you.' All the combined verses that speak the same issue are quite different in the Greek.

No, those who lead us in the church, and to whom we are to submit, do indeed have a God given authority to do that that the rest of us don't have. There is no breakdown somewhere along the line from the Greek to the English. Anybody with access to an online concordance can see this.

We see this exercise of special authority right in the New Testament itself in Paul's dealings with the Church at Corinth.

Why?..you may ask. Google 'king James bible translators and the kings rules for translation. Quite a horror story. I cannot mention the religious system that the early English translators drew from, even Bishops bible so you'll have to do your own studying. They did not utilize the Greek and Hebrew sources as we have been told. King James wanted to control the people through the hierarchy of the church of england, so they deliberately twisted the scriptures in order to force the people to submit to their religious leaders. Gr:be persuaded by their example. English: obey. Get the picture? I encourage you to do that study on the King James Version translators and the King's rules of Translation. God bless.

But I didn't quote a KJV, nor do I use a KJV, so how is my understanding somehow distorted by that translation?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have to be honest. I'm growing weary of the way doctrines swing in such extremes one way to the other in the church. Truth lies somewhere in between these extremes.

The traditional handling of authority in the church is wrong in some ways for sure. But so is going completely the other way and castrating the church leadership and reducing them to just friendly guides with no authority. We don't see that as the way it is in the NT. I bet Ananias and Sapphira wish Peter had been just that. And I'm sure the excommunicated sinner at Corinth would have received this doctrine of castrated 'leadership' (if you can really call it that) quite well.

 

[jasoncran]

I have to be honest. I'm growing weary of the way doctrines swing in such extremes one way to the other in the church. Truth lies somewhere in between these extremes.

The traditional handling of authority in the church is wrong in some ways for sure. But so is going completely the other way and castrating the church leadership and reducing them to just friendly guides with no authority. We don't see that as the way it is in the NT.

try being the likeliest only amil Christian in your church. I don't teach what I say here but if asked I will speak my mind and I have a time or two.

 

[farouk]

I have to be honest. I'm growing weary of the way doctrines swing in such extremes one way to the other in the church. Truth lies somewhere in between these extremes.

The traditional handling of authority in the church is wrong in some ways for sure. But so is going completely the other way and castrating the church leadership and reducing them to just friendly guides with no authority. We don't see that as the way it is in the NT. I bet Ananias and Sapphira wish Peter had been just that. And I'm sure the excommunicated sinner at Corinth would have received this doctrine of castrated 'leadership' (if you can really call it that) quite well.

[MENTION=88699]Jethro Bodine[/MENTION]:

Often goes like a pendulum, right? swinging from one extreme to another.

Blessings.

 

[WIP]

I think human weakness demands some organization and structure. Without it and left to ourselves we are doomed. At the same time I guess I have difficulty understanding the sentiment that a pastor or other church leader is somehow held above or put on a higher plane of authority. Maybe it is because in my church I don't see this taking place. Our pastor serves to lead the congregation but not by command or order or demand. He leads by example. His humility is well known around these parts. In our church it is known in the way he is paid. He refuses to take any pay raise aside from what is considered typical for a newly ordained pastor despite serving us for over 30 years. We had to fight with him to accept that the congregation would pay for his health insurance and a retirement plan. He refused an offer from the congregation for he and his wife to take a vacation on us. Personally, I don't think he ever plans on retiring from his service for any reason save his health if it should come to that. He does not control or lead our council and in fact seeks guidance from the council and in particular the deacons.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think human weakness demands some organization and structure. Without it and left to ourselves we are doomed. At the same time I guess I have difficulty understanding the sentiment that a pastor or other church leader is somehow held above or put on a higher plane of authority. Maybe it is because in my church I don't see this taking place. Our pastor serves to lead the congregation but not by command or order or demand. He leads by example. His humility is well known around these parts. In our church it is known in the way he is paid. He refuses to take any pay raise aside from what is considered typical for a newly ordained pastor despite serving us for over 30 years. We had to fight with him to accept that the congregation would pay for his health insurance and a retirement plan. He refused an offer from the congregation for he and his wife to take a vacation on us. Personally, I don't think he ever plans on retiring from his service for any reason save his health if it should come to that. He does not control or lead our council and in fact seeks guidance from the council and in particular the deacons.

I used to think like this, but now I know from example how dangerous majority rule is. That somehow what the majority wants must be, and is, the right thing to do (think what's happening in America today).

I'm not talking about plurality of elders. I believe that is God's intent. And under the headship of a head elder. But you can't let the masses make all their own spiritual decisions according to majority rule. It doesn't work. (That's as dangerous as an all-controlling, sole, pastor with no accountability to other elders.)

Who would even think of letting their kids run the family household in this way? But somehow we think in the church that those who are being led are the best equipped to make the important spiritual decisions that the elders should be making for them. What kid wouldn't tell you that's true, that they should be in control of the decisions affecting their own good, but which we all know is simply not true?

I believe God's design for leadership is grounded in the "leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens" instructions to Moses in Exodus 18. If you haven't read it, read it and see how good of a blueprint for leadership it is for God's people.

 

[ejected]

Read my other posts about the singled out 'pastor'. Then google 'where did the pastor come from'. Check out truthforfree.com. Does your gathering reflect 1 Cor. 12 and 14? If it does not it is out of order. Unscriptural. Someone asked me to describe our m.o. Of fellowship. Very simple.
We get a cup of coffee. We sit down. We wait upon The Lord, praying individually. Fellowshipping in the Lord, a Christ centered discussion. We open up the word. His gracious Spirit(anointing) begins to speak through us as He deposits His thoughts within us...one at a time, decently and in order. All are free to speak what God is given to them. Not a dry flesh controlled operation but an alive, in the Spirit atmosphere.
Now, here's the deal. If you have never experienced this kind of Spiritual fellowship, there is no way you are going to understand it completely. I get that. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.
I remember many times sitting in the pew while the preacher is doing his 40 minute 800 dollar sermon. You do the math. The Holy Spirit would come on me in a powerful way with a clear word of exhortation. What do you suppose would happen if I tried to deliver it to the congregation according to 1 Cor. 12? I'll give you 3 guesses. 'Please don't interrupt the service. If you have something to say, wait until the end of the service and I'll talk to you in the back room'.
Now go study 1 Cor. 12 and see if it squares with what I just described. What you folks are not understanding is when Jesus is allowed to control our gathering together, spiritual organization is in play, His power and presence sees to it. Does not mean a thing or 2 can't stray some. That's what the elders are for, those with experience.
Here's an offer I'm quite sure will not be taken up. So I'm not packing a bag in a hurry. I'll gladly come to your fellowship and explain/teach your folks on Paul's ground work for a true biblical fellowship with Christ as head according to the scriptures, emphasizing 1Cor 12. And I won't charge a dime 'lest it hinder the gospel'. I' won't hold my breath(smile).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Withheld, except for what I consider a few hiccups in your concept of leadership that you shared in other posts, I have shared exactly what you are saying here. I have been saying these things in this and similar forums, and in Church Bible studies--the ones where you might actually get to say something. (Your post reminds how sometimes it's scary to read someone's post and see you could have easily been the author of it and perhaps you just forgot you wrote it. It happened in another thread this morning.) If you'll bear with me, allow me to share my personal perspective on this.

I agree completely with your take on 1 Corinthians 12 and 14. I'm fifty years old and had hoped for years to somehow be a part of a shift in the church toward styling the gathering of the saints into the Biblical model God intended for us to follow. It works. Plain and simple it works. And it gives what so many Christians long for in the Christian faith and in their relationship with God...actual, manifest fellowship with God and the promises of God. IOW, the truth of all that it means to be a Christian is made manifest for one to see and enjoy when we do what God, through Paul, said to do when we meet together.

At this point I've resigned myself to being calm, quiet, alone, and churchless for my reamining years. I'm riding it out and wringing my hands in frustration over the way the grip of cold dead tradition has blinded the church and hardened them to accept the futility of the non-Biblical system of meeting together they've endorsed and practiced for centuries. (this is one of the few times you'll catch me taking in terms of 'me' and 'them' in regard to the church--which usually is a bad sign for a person to do).

The only way the Biblical model of meeting together is going to get a hold in the present church is for it to start up as a grass roots movement among NEW converts, or disconnected believers who don't have the hindrances of tradition and indoctrination concerning how we are to meet and worship together. I'd start that grass roots movement in my own community if I had the calling of a pastor/elder, which I definitely do not have. This all would depend on truly gifted and called pastors/elders to start this thing up. But I simply don't see them.


The problems I know that do come with attempting to run a church the way Paul describes is it, in this time in our church history, attracts rebels and loonies. Because it's a place where they can find the voice they can not have in the general church. This is why forums seem to have an inordinate share of loonies and rebels. It's a voice they otherwise do not have. What the movement needs is lots of level headed, mature, truly spiritually gifted people to guide and direct it. But, sadly, people with those qualities go to the major denominations and play the game and hide their gifts by wrapping them safely in the traditions and expectations of that denomination.

Don't want to make this a long post. I want people to read it, so I'll stop here. You can prolly tell there is still a glimmer of hope in me the fire will start somewhere and the traditional church will be abandoned in favor of 'church' that actually produces what we Christians claim is so true about our faith.

Heavy heart signing out for now...

 

[reba]

When we want to find something we can. We can look and complain, as I am here, or we can do as the Scriptures says;

Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
Php 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Let me continue in short snippets...

One thing's for sure. For this thing to take off in the church we're going to have to accept the fact that the church is going to be wittled down to a much smaller body than it is now. There are many fringe believers who are simply not in the church now to find and experience the realities of manifest fellowship with God and realization of his promises. They are marking the 'I went to church today' box on an imaginary score card. They will not be interested in what we're talking about here. Accept it. This style is for dedicated, transformed people. Whether they are babes in Christ, or very mature, is not the point. Desire for God is.


Edit: IOW, this is completely contrary to the popular "mega-church" mentality driving much of the church today. It's about the few...those on the less traveled path.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When we want to find something we can. We can look and complain, as I am here, or we can do as the Scriptures says;

Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
Php 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Well, I certainly am lacking in the optimism category. Probably because of my move to where I live now with the hopes of getting hooked up with a Biblically styled fellowship, but being terribly disappointed, even hurt instead.

Tradition is the problem. Blind, indoctrinated tradition is the problem.

 

[reba]

IF those beginning churches or groups of people ( however one wishes to say it) did not have problems they would not have needed the letters from Paul....

I have known pastors like Withheld is speaking of and I have loved a pastor like WIP was talking about.... They are there... Pastors are just human like the rest of us. Ever see the movie or read the book Lord of the flies? If a group of folks get to get together a leader will be born in that group. IMO a Christian group of folks should be led by one who serves. Washing some guys feet today would be more for show then service ...


This blessing was sent to the local newspaper..... it blessed my dad....

There is a great shepherd in our town

He watches over his flock day and night with great love and devotion. He will take in any stray lambs he finds or who come to him without any questions or a second thought.
He condems no one, he just loves and cares for his own little lambs and strays.
No, its not our Blessed Savior Christ who is here, but a very Christ like man. He may be smalll in size, but he has a heart that outweighs his body. We who know him are very blessed.
We all thak you Shepherd Jack, for your love and devotion through out this year.

Signed A. Believer...

 

[reba]

Jethro, Granny agrees in part

Where we live the 'church ' choices ... wild holy rollers ( don't kill me I am penticostal ) dead community or LDS .

So this, site, is my church. I accept the authority of the Admins as God given and am thankful for this fellowship...


Back to the newspaper clip about dad.... He would split wood and leave it on a porch ...He loved to fish, cleaned fish would be delivered.
Kids who lived 20 miles away from the school could count on a ride home.... etc he served ....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This blessing was sent to the local newspaper..... it blessed my dad....

There is a great shepherd in our town

He watches over his flock day and night with great love and devotion. He will take in any stray lambs he finds or who come to him without any questions or a second thought.
He condems no one, he just loves and cares for his own little lambs and strays.
No, its not our Blessed Savior Christ who is here, but a very Christ like man. He may be smalll in size, but he has a heart that outweighs his body. We who know him are very blessed.
We all thak you Shepherd Jack, for your love and devotion through out this year.

Signed A. Believer...

I take it Jack is your father.

It's a very wonderful letter. It's what the heart of ministry is all about. I've been under a pastor with that kind of heart who led a Biblically styled meeting of the saints. That's how I know they work...and what the heart of a true servant/leader of God looks like.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, Granny agrees in part

Where we live the 'church ' choices ... wild holy rollers ( don't kill me I am penticostal ) dead community or LDS .

So this, site, is my church. I accept the authority of the Admins as God given and am thankful for this fellowship...


Back to the newspaper clip about dad.... He would split wood and leave it on a porch ...He loved to fish, cleaned fish would be delivered.
Kids who lived 20 miles away from the school could count on a ride home.... etc he served ....

So it was your dad.

I actually believe many pastors have this kind of heart. But they are kept from expressing that heart in a truly effective and satisfying way by the traditions of the church that bind them.

 

[JCitoL]

Jesus told His followers that the worlds leaders lord it over their subservients but it shall not be so among you. Yet today we have men lording it over the sheep and are paid to do so. Is there a problem here?

exactly the pride is the problem, because satan misled eve and adam to become masters like God Himself, but the human capacity/power therein is too exiguous so that the human (to) be able to administer another person passably, because the human has been made as an user for there cannot be more than one God as a spiritual administrator of the universe, neither there is a need of second one, nor it's possible there be more than one and only, but even it is better there be only one God that administers/handles the things than every human (to) have to do this, that is why there must be no pride in the believers, also because they did never succeed to provide of themselves a full salvation and abundant/everlasting life to any human

Blessings

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

And it gives what so many Christians long for in the Christian faith and in their relationship with God...actual, manifest fellowship with God and the promises of God.

Good post. Another benefit that goes unmentioned that the NT was very big on is that the intimate setting you speak of leads to believers having close relationships with EACH OTHER and actually being participants in one another's lives. How can the church be anything like the intimate loving family of called ones Jesus and his 1st century followers advocated if the type of fellowships advocated today aren't set up to foster those relationships?

 

[ejected]

Sorry Jethro you think my posts are hiccups. I know I'm probably not as eloquent in oratory as you,(still smiling) .I ain't mad at ya. I'll try to do better in the future. I agree with everything you have said but I take exception to when you said you are not an elder, which simply means older, more mature, more experienced in the things of God.unless you r a new christian, you qualify as pastor/elder as the n.t. defines it. Are you able to give sound scriptural advice to the new bees? Are you living a sound example before The Lord? If you answered yes to both enquiries......sorry but you are stuck as a pastor, poi men, shepherd of younger believers...sheep, whether you like it or not.
You said you were Under a pastor. Now I realize that what we were born into and trained in is a very hard thing to shake. You are not Under any man. You are under Christ only.
About a workable body. 2or 3 family's at most so all can partake in ministry. That' one reason they met in homes.