Jeff from france

[Truthfrees]

well maybe you can think about the theology and THINK and see if every part of it is logical and makes sense globally and not just separately, this is simply rethoric. Because ALL exisitng theologies are full of holes bigger than in a swiss "gruyère"

the problem is that you deify the Bible, which is a sin.

true - all theologies do have holes in it - that is the problem with theologies

true - making sense of theologies can be an important part of determining truth - agreeing with scripture is a bigger part of determining truth though

accusing me of sinning by defying the bible is not logical - you are the one who said your theology is nowhere in the bible and is nowhere anywhere else - iow NO one confirms your theology - not even God's Holy Word

in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses is the truth established - 2 Corinthians 13:1 - Deuteronomy 19:15

 

[Truthfrees]

yeah, but a God that punish to eternal torture can't be a good God in my book, so you were not so far from your actual ideas as a child...it's just you don't fear Him anymore because you know you are saved, but why so few compassion ? don't you think of other people that aren't saved?

God does not do anything cruel or unrighteous - only the devil does

 

[Truthfrees]

And maybe it's time to insert REASON into the theology ? you know so that every item makes sense compared to the rest ?

true - that is an excellent thing to do

 

[GodsGrace]

That's alright and yes I already know all of this. I was just trying to make a point. Even if God caused a big bang to start all of existence though, the whole entire process could have lasted seven days just saying. A big bang could have just been the beginning of creation since everything has a beginning, middle, and an end.

Not everything has a beginning and an end!

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Not everything has a beginning and an end!

Pardon me, but I do believe that everything in this lifetime does.

 

[GodsGrace]

Pardon me, but I do believe that everything in this lifetime does.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Well, except for true love.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, except for true love.

What does "new JC Hammer" mean?

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

What does "new JC Hammer" mean?

Oh, JC is the stage name that I really want to have if I ever become a Christian rap artist and I was making a parody joke because of the fact that in actuality there's a MC Hammer.

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh, JC is the stage name that I really want to have if I ever become a Christian rap artist and I was making a parody joke because of the fact that in actuality there's a MC Hammer.

You're a singer?
Are you a girl??

Just saw the pink name.
Not an easy task to be a girl rapper!

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

You're a singer?
Are you a girl??

Just saw the pink name.
Not an easy task to be a girl rapper!

Umm,.. excuse me? What are you still living in the stone age? As long as I'm not hurting anybody I can do anything I want to do and be anything I want to be!

 

[for_his_glory]

yeah that's why the need to introduce REASON and LOGIC into the equation.

two important things most theologians omit

What you have said here has struck a cord in me that I have to reply to this thread.

There is no logic or a carnal understanding when it comes to the Spiritual things of God as reasoning has to line up with what is already written in the Bible. Either you accept the Bible as being the word of God in all its parts, or you reject the whole as one can not pick and choose that of what they want to believe in part.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

You speak of reincarnation which is a philosophical concept of Greek philosophers like Pythagoras, Socrates and Plato. It's a central belief of all Indian religions namely Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, spiritism and today's New Age movement that reject the true God of all creation and His Son Christ Jesus as they use logic and a carnal understanding.

There is no foundation for the concept of reincarnation found in what has already been written in scripture. In Luke 23:43 Jesus told the criminal that was being crucified beside Him"today you will be with me in paradise", meaning that the criminal believed that this was Christ as He hung on the cross and asked Him to remember him when Jesus comes into His Kingdom.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The belief in reincarnation is an ancient phenomenon that is unbiblical and according to scripture is rejected as a false teaching.

 

[jasonc]

Well, except for true love.

Ends at death of both, for their is neither given nor taken In marriage in heaven or after ressurection.

That's a response to a question about the wife of 7 husbands according to the Law of the goel.

So yes even In the age to come marrying will not be.dont get that buts its clear

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Ends at death of both, for their is neither given nor taken In marriage in heaven or after ressurection.

That's a response to a question about the wife of 7 husbands according to the Law of the goel.

So yes even In the age to come marrying will not be.dont get that buts its clear

Still, even if there is no marriage in Heaven, it doesn't mean that we won't still love each other since I'm pretty sure that love will still exist.

 

[jasonc]

Still, even if there is no marriage in Heaven, it doesn't mean that we won't still love each other since I'm pretty sure that love will still exist.

Love in the marriage sense wont exist. Non taken ,non given meaning that type of love wont be.

 

[1onOne]

"

What if we each had a different vision?

Did you know that Jesus is the LAST revelation from God?



If you don't believe that it means Muhhamad may have been telling the truth, John Smith may have been telling the truth and L. Ron Hubbard may be telling the truth.



How can we determine WHAT the truth is if we go BEYOND what the words of God say?



What if MY visions are different from YOUR visions?

Why shouldn't I trust Maria in Croatia who sees Mary EVERY DAY and gets messages from her?

Did you know that Jesus is the LAST revelation from God?"
proof please.

i understand your questionning. But once again with REASON and LOGIC we can find the truth.
it's like SCIENCE : science is a way to find the truth, a method, and theology is also a science that should use logic and reason into the equation.
But lots of pastors and priests adhere to a dogmatic point of view.
Even if someone exterior would introduce new ideas, they would stick to their original beliefs, simply because it would mean that they were wrong for many years, so now how can anyone believe in them now ? Who knows if it's the truth now.
The people attending the church would "say" or "think" : this pastor didn't rely on logic for 40 years, and we are supposed to think that sudddently he bought himself a sense of rhetoric and "bon-sens" ?
Of course not, they would get away as fast as possible.

Pastors like the money their sheeple give to them, that's how they live, so they try to maintain a likelihood of equilibrium and that's good enough for them.

Also they think like most do : "i am part of a federation so more clever people must have figured this out".
And they refer to complicated theology to explain all the errors and mistakes that punctuate their teachings.
We're not far from the middle ages where you could buy a spot in heavens.

Do you believe we all have reason and logic?

Do you believe the nature of man has changed within the last, let's say, 5,000 years?



Please answer about the nature of man. Are we any different than we were 5,000 years ago?

Will be back in about an hour.

yes we all have reason and logic, but how many people use those ? Most people don't rely on logic, they rely on "what's working" and their habits. Man tries, and what sticks, he goes with that. Or he relies on someone else to think for himself : like we rely on our pastor to have done the thinking, the pastor relies on the federation to have done the thinking, the federation relies on someone else, and finally nobody knows what to trust.

Codex Sainiaticus and the Dead Sea Scrolls show us that the Bible we have today is the exact same as those in the past. Thousands of years old and still accurate

yeah it's still accurate, and ? Anyway i strongly start to think Satan is rewriting the Bible. Check out you EYA on YT

please show us a scripture that says what you are saying- the scriptures i quoted said torment - nothingness is not torment - torment ceases when you cease to exist and become nothing

i'm sorry but you're inventing stuff now, because it fits your narrative. It's said "damnation" in the text, not "torment". This is totally different. See how people don't rely on logic ? they don't even rely on truth, they rely on HABITS.

it's one thing to have different ideas about what scripture means - we all do that - that is why we have discussion because we all see things differently - and our ideas can be right or wrong - which discussion may or may not sort out



but as you correctly said the issue is when someone says they have a revelation from God that is not found in scripture and then proceeds to tell us all christians and jews before him were wrong and he alone has the truth -

yeah well once again it was exactly how it happenned in History and this is how God's proceed : God annoints one man, to bring the new truth. And i'm not saying i'm the only one to know the truth, many people do know that theology, it's just not been made into a church movement before.

God tells us the things we need to know - do we need to know where hell is - or where the holy of holies is? - obviously not - it makes no difference to our life on earth and God did not think we needed to know



dreams and visions should only agree with scripture - not contradict scripture



there is no satanel - EL is God's name - satan means deceiver accuser - so you are saying God deceives and accuses - even the words you use shows that your revelations did not come from God - that is what we all need to be careful of - do not be fooled by satan who is coming to you pretending to be God/EL - 2 Corinthians 11:14 - Isaiah 14:14

yeah right : we don't need to know anything : where hell is, where the holy of holies is, you promote obscurantism, because "it's good for us", right..."ignorance is bliss"

You believe the name of the devil is in the Bible... ? meaning "accuser" in hebrew. How come the name of Satan can be in the hebrew language ?

Hi again,

With due respect, I have seen your theology and it does not agree with our Statement of Faith, nor does it agree with much of the way we understand the Bible, including annihilation.



By rageing, I mean why do you oppose our view of the Biblical accounts and why do you think it's your mission to change our view?



And you are right, we know nothing about you. So, tell us about yourself. What was your upbringing? Did you go to church as a child? How about your parents? Did they believe in God? Did they grow up with a religious upbringing?

don't get me wrong i'm just here to chit-chat, not to change minds. i know for a fact that changing someone's perspective on something is really hard. and it takes more than just one or towo messages on a forum

just something to think about, i'm not trying to influence anybody. i'm not here to preach, right ? And if someone finds it interesting then it's all good ! it opens minds you know : if you always stay with the same ideas, you don't progress : that's by getting studies from different minded people that you can progress, not staying indefinitely on the same ideas

you do not know me and you are new here so you don't know that what you have said about me is the opposite to what is true - that's ok - no problem -



revelations and visions and impressions and hearing from God are a big part of my daily life - but i have had experiences like yours where i received a revelation that i THOUGHT came from God but it did not - and how did i know that it did not? - because it contradicted scripture and / or it was found NOWHERE in scripture



let me say again - ANY revelation you claim comes from God must agree with scripture - if it contradicts scripture or is found NOWHERE in scripture it is not from God

yet NT was found NOWHERE in OT, so it must be bogus i suppose ? haha joking, (not raging, right?)

The old axiom holds true...



No one cares what you know unless they know that you care.

i like it

 

[1onOne]

Hi April. One thing that I heard a while ago, was that the bible has a purpose. It is written with history, specific events, and following specific people in some of the books. It also has poetry, proverbs, prophies, parables, promises and warnings, and teachings, laws, and commandments. In the Old Testiment it even has things for holidays and the reasons to celibrate them for Israel.





....sorry for the long ramble. Hope it all made sense. I know I've got some crazy sounding ideas in there.

"Bible in not a science book" : yeah that's great excuse that i've heard millions of times by people that think the Bible is wrong about heliocentrism, that we're on a spinning ball, spinning in multiple directions at the same time, faster and faster, yet we feel and see no movement. Just because "someone smarter must have figured it out". Yet again not thinking about logic and reasoning and learning and testing oneself, just HABITS. Habits is our biggest enemy guys.

That's alright and yes I already know all of this. I was just trying to make a point. Even if God caused a big bang to start all of existence though, the whole entire process could have lasted seven days just saying. A big bang could have just been the beginning of creation since everything has a beginning, middle, and an end.

except "their" version of the big-bang, is that a bunch of NOTHING, EXPLODED (with no reason apparently) and created everything.

perfectly logical bravo

haha, joking (not raging or hating)

guys, the Bible was right all along. But will YOU start believing in the Bible? Or do you believe what's convenient, what pats you on your back habits, and get rid of the rest?

true - all theologies do have holes in it - that is the problem with theologies

yes but when you have a theology that has 12546 holes in it, versus another one that has 3. Then which one is the right one?

true - making sense of theologies can be an important part of determining truth - agreeing with scripture is a bigger part of determining truth though

oh i agree with scriptures. Nobody attacked my ideas based on the scripture though. Or when they do they INVENT scriptures lol.

accusing me of sinning by defying the bible is not logical - you are the one who said your theology is nowhere in the bible and is nowhere anywhere else - iow NO one confirms your theology - not even God's Holy Word

yeah, most part of my theology isn't in the Bible, but lots of verses go in my direction, so it's based on the Bible before all.

you are mistaken if you think good people go to hell - is the devil good? - does he deserve hell? - those who go to hell are every bit as deserving

man how can you say that.

do you disagree with my understanding that all people that don't believe in Jesus Christ go to hell? I'm not sure about your position

God does not do anything cruel or unrighteous - only the devil does

i agree. Does torturing souls FOREVER (ANY soul) falls into the "cruel" section?

do not be swayed by strange harsh theologies some people have about who goes to hell - you are correct in saying some theologies have huge holes in them - they do - and they cause people to react the same way you are - i react to strange harsh theologies too - i think most of us do



we need to oppose strange harsh theologies



so is your theology nicer? - yes it is - buddhists have a very nice kind sweet theology too - so i agree that your theology is nicer and kinder




that is the secret - good people do not go to hell - God haters and cruel people go to hell - a christian who is truly born again has God's love for others and is not cruel - a cruel person wants nothing to do with God because God is love - John 3:16

oh i don't belive in my theology because it's "nice", i'm in search of the TRUTH. the truth in ANY part of my life, not only religions. Religions are important because, well, we die one day, and what happens next? So in my life i started from zero : i could not adhere to any religion, based on my past experiences, right ? that's what you do when you want to find the truth. You don't start by : "oh i've been a christian all my life, so christianism is most certainly the truth". the not the scientific way to approach things, that's not the theological way either.

so i studied most religions, gnosticism, occultism, etc, all things is could get my hands on.
Then i THOUGHT about it, why this why that... And i came to the conclusion, based on my experiences as well (i'm not saying that you gotta get rid of EVEYTHING, just take it relativitely, by not putting a bigger "weight" on it that the rest.

So i came to the conclusion that Christianism was the truth, but also that other religions, are NOT. (which is important because muslims for example think that christians are just misled, and that the Coran is the latest "update"

just by reasoning, rhetoric and logic i found the truth....but will YOU find it?

true - so let's reason together and use scripture - that is an excellent thing to do



the issue of suffering on earth and suffering eternally in hell bothers many christians including me - so let us use scripture and prayer to find out from God what the truth is about this



this is an excellent topic to discuss and seek God about - if this is the issue that caused you to promote a new theology i can now understand why you are insisting your new theology makes more sense - but i propose that there is a better answer found in scripture that agrees with scripture and still is kinder than the harsh theologies about who goes to hell

ok

so let's think for a minute.

So hell can be:

1. eternal
2. ephemeral

1. with suffering
2. without suffering.

1. tortured by God
2. tortured by the devil(s)

ok i think we can all agree on 3)
5) is easy, but some people here seem to think that a GOOD GOD can torture souls forever (doesn't matter if they did something bad or not). but i would rule 5) out, simply because those that think a good god could torture souls FOREVER is just not logical. Someone who TORTURES someone can't be GOOD. If you think differently then i'll put you in the same cell as Charles Manson, and we'll see what will happen next XD, when he rips your eyes out of heir sockets, rip your nails and tongue out. THEN i want to hear from you: Charles is a GOOD man. Then i'll accept your point of view

so there is a really hard question is 1) & 2) : do we stay in hell eternally or just a few days. Well honestly : do you think that being tortured eternally is possible in a universe controlled by a GOOD god ? honestly ? Even if God was at the origin of the existence of hell (which He obviously ins't), then i don't see Him, knowing Him as i do, leaving such a dangerous place, yet alone putting it in the first place in the garden. Because that's what you think i suppose ? that God put a tree so dangerous that it would kill you ? But NOWHERE it says that it's God who put it there.

so with REASON and LOGIC, we found out that :
hell isn't eternal, so we stay there for a few days only, (waiting for a new wave of incarnation), that we suffer there, but it's not God's fault : the tortures are performed by the devil(s).

see? not so hard if you apply REASON and LOGIC

Not everything has a beginning and an end!

what ? "I'm the alpha and omega?" ???


OK so now we can talk about the next part of my theology.

I think that God isn't all powerful ON EARTH.

i base my idea on the Lord's prayer (and also the fact that it fits perfectly the whole theology)

"Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven:"

so it means that God's will isn't made on earth, BUT it is made in heaven, right ? Is that how all of you understand that passage?

Hence the importance of prayer. I've always wondered why it was so important to PRAY, right ? If God does what He wants on earth, then he KNOWS better than me what i need, he can help me quicker than i need, he can prepare things for my future, bless me. WHY ON EARTH do we have to pray then ? it's useless.

BUT i do think that prayer is really important. It is why Jesus (i think it was him don't quote me on that) said "to pray all the time". Because if you don't pray, God can't act in the world. And yes we'll go in detail about the OT, Why it seems that God was doing all He wanted, AND the NT where Jesus was apparently doing what He wanted.

Also, on the other part, the demons can only act through MAGIC. And yes we'll go in detail about Job's story.

What you have to understand is that the agreement between Satan and God was at the root of the creation of the earth. So if both are in accordance, then no problem, any one of them can act as they want. That's why God can't act as He wants : because Satan would not agree (i can HEAR people cringing from here :biggrin). And Satan can't act as he wants : because God would disagree.

Don't you think we would see much more chaos if demons could act as they wanted ? think about it, DEEPLY

Jeff

 

[GodsGrace]

"

Did you know that Jesus is the LAST revelation from God?"
proof please.

You must be quoting me there because it IS what I believe.
We've had other revelation from God...I'm not one to believe that Jesus was the ONLY revelation. He was the revelation that God used through the Hebrews, Israelites and Jews. He was what was prophesied....a Messiah to free the slaves. Was it the slaves of Rome or the slaves of satan? I'd say the second.

What proof would you like?
If you believed totally and only in the bible, then I'd have to point you to Revelation 22:18 when John tells the readers not to add to the words of that book..and it IS the last book written in the N.T.

Using our logic and reason...
I'd have to say that since God went through the trouble of sending His Son, or the 2nd person of the Trinity, to die here on earth.....I'd have to logically assume that Jesus had the truth and that NO ONE else will have it after Him. This is where my logic and reason brings me. Not a bad place.

i understand your questionning. But once again with REASON and LOGIC we can find the truth.
it's like SCIENCE : science is a way to find the truth, a method, and theology is also a science that should use logic and reason into the equation.

I cannot remember my questioning. Since you didn't post the questions they may not be important.

So let's consider using our reason and logic to get to the truth. Theology is the study of God...it can bring us to spiritual truth like philosophy can bring us to secular truth.
BTW, philosophy is studied in seminary. Why? Because if we're to truly believe in the bible, with our whole mind, soul and heart (as Jesus commanded us to do Mathew 22:37), it must be believed with our reason and our logic.

I can say that my faith is reasonable.
I can say that my faith is logical.
I believe the N.T. because I can believe who wrote it.
I can believe that persons died for the truth they believed.
And, I can believe we have the proper faith presented to us today because men fought for their ideas (not physical wars) and protected the faith that was given to us by Jesus and the N.T. writers.

But lots of pastors and priests adhere to a dogmatic point of view.
Even if someone exterior would introduce new ideas, they would stick to their original beliefs, simply because it would mean that they were wrong for many years, so now how can anyone believe in them now ? Who knows if it's the truth now.
The people attending the church would "say" or "think" : this pastor didn't rely on logic for 40 years, and we are supposed to think that sudddently he bought himself a sense of rhetoric and "bon-sens" ?
Of course not, they would get away as fast as possible.

I agree with your premise.
I'm sure this is true because I've seen it.
We could discuss further -- that's up to you.
As to dogmatic priests...are there any left?
I know priests that are NOT dogmatic.
When logic and reason is used...we DO come up with different ideas.

The problem is...Are they right?

Pastors like the money their sheeple give to them, that's how they live, so they try to maintain a likelihood of equilibrium and that's good enough for them.

Also they think like most do : "i am part of a federation so more clever people must have figured this out".
And they refer to complicated theology to explain all the errors and mistakes that punctuate their teachings.
We're not far from the middle ages where you could buy a spot in heavens.

I agree with the above too.
Lots of churches are teaching incorrect doctrine because it's easier to accept (this is called easy believism or Hyper Grace) and it fills up the pews.

I don't understand what you mean by "buying a spot in heaven".

yes we all have reason and logic, but how many people use those ? Most people don't rely on logic, they rely on "what's working" and their habits. Man tries, and what sticks, he goes with that. Or he relies on someone else to think for himself : like we rely on our pastor to have done the thinking, the pastor relies on the federation to have done the thinking, the federation relies on someone else, and finally nobody knows what to trust.

I only trust myself .... what I've been taught I've checked out very well because I had to leave a church...so some study was needed.

yeah it's still accurate, and ? Anyway i strongly start to think Satan is rewriting the Bible. Check out you EYA on YT

Could you post a link please?
I'll comment on it if you do.

BTW, I have no idea what you believe.
Annihalation?
I know a priest that believes this.

Eternal torment?
I know a priest that believes hell is temporary.

I think anyone with a brain tries to use their reason and may even come to different conclusions....

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

"Bible in not a science book" : yeah that's great excuse that i've heard millions of times by people that think the Bible is wrong about heliocentrism, that we're on a spinning ball, spinning in multiple directions at the same time, faster and faster, yet we feel and see no movement. Just because "someone smarter must have figured it out". Yet again not thinking about logic and reasoning and learning and testing oneself, just HABITS. Habits is our biggest enemy guys.

I don't think the bible is wrong. Did you read anything I wrote?

For your sake consider Proverbs 26:18-19. And don't say "just joking" at the end of your words. It fools no one.

"Like a maniac shooting flaming arrows of death, is one who deceives their neighbor and says, “I was only joking!” "

Consider Mathew 7:15-20 and compare it to John 13:34-35

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Or once more to make the point consider 1 Corinthians 13:1-3

"If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."

If these things are hard to practice and harder to fathom or see their importance then take note on your own theology. Because it is not from God. All that I see from your replies is a person who wants to cause division and add seeds of doubt on others to make yourself sound wiser. That is my observation and my criticism.

Take that rebuke seriously. If you want to talk about the issues of your theology, or of your points, or even if there are things that can be agreed on, we can manage to do this with out your bitterness. (Don't be blind, there is bitterness in your words). Either way... You can read, and I've given you this response for your benefit, so that you can do better, and be better. No reason to continue on until I see better fruits coming from you.

 

[JohnDB]

So...
Jeff from France is disregarding archeological evidence, anthropological evidence, geological evidence, sound logical theology derived from the scriptures to have a theology that makes God smaller, Satan more powerful, and time is something that God has to work around.

Yeah...

Just can't buy it.