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Thanks for the heads up.i understand, but you know jews and christians were wrong all the time during History, the jews killed Jesus, but they were the most religious, then the catholics raised, and we know they were somehow wrong, because protestantism came and brung new things to the table. If you stay on your old positions, you won't be a part of God's plan, that's how i see it. and if you don't even want to debate and aknowledge new ideas you will definitively be put out of God's new plan
the fact that you disminishes my theology by calling it "Jesus is a space alien " proves you didn't even read the ideas, you'll be judged as you judged don't forget that.
Hi Jeff,ok about reincarnation if i may talk about it here it's about three main points, and also the fact that it fits perfectly the whole theology, it could not work with a single life situation.
1)
John 9:2 : "And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? "
So the poor guy to be born blind...But how can it be his fault ? Unless he lived before his birth, that's the only possibility. I have to push the point that it means the disciples were believing in reincarnation, but it was so obvious to them, that they didn't seem the need to put it clearly in the Bible, just like Flat Earth. Also the important point is that they ask a question to Jesus, if they were wrong, Jesus would have certainly said something like :"you are wrong, we don't reincarnate but we live only once" but instead he replied "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. "
2) Jesus went to hell after his death to announce the good news of Salvation. Many theologians say that the people there were asleep, simply because it fits their other theologic arguments. But i don't see Jesus going to hell simply to talk to asleep spirits for 3 days... That's just stupid. So the spirit were alive. But why is Jesus anouncing the good news to spirit that will never live again, and stay in hell forever? it makes no sense once again. Jesus anounced the good news because he wanted the poor souls suffering out there to rejoice with Him on the great hope of Salvation.
3) People going to hell forever is just preposterous. I know a lot of you believe in it, but it's just opposite to a mercyful God. The worst punishment for God, is to be recalled to nothingness. Few angels decided so and God was very sad, but he accepted. I don't say there is no hell, but we just don't stay there forever. We go there after a impious life without Christ, as a consequence, and God has nothing to do with it, that's the devil and his minions who torture souls out there. Then we reincarnate and we have another chance. The poor muslim that was born in Irak has nothing to do with the fact that he is muslim, his family is, so he is also. He would certainly not change religion like that. So it's not his fault if he doesn't belive in Christ, so why would he end up in eternal suffering if it's not his fault ? God is Just and God is Mercyful. The whole story about eternal suffering in hell makes no sense at all.
Jeff
Good morning Jeff,
As far as the verse you used to support reincarnation, you would do better to read Jewish teachings to better understand some of their views on generational sin which is rooted in Exodus (I am a jelous God....). Historically, the Pharisis came into being based on Roman occupation and Harrod (nonJew) being their King. One thing the Jews understood was Deuteronomy 28 and how that related to exile. ( Blessings and curses) The state of Jerusalem in their eyes was worse than exile, hence wrong interpretations of sin came about.
As far as Hell, that's a very interesting topic, especially from a historical Jewish perspective. Have you ever studied it's biblical roots? By hell, I'm referring to Gehenna
Hi Jeff from France, first of all let me say, "Welcome to the Forum." We don't usually have discussions like this in the New Members forum so it has taken me a while to get here and respond.
First of all, I agree with Stevebolts where he is sharing about 'generational sin' That is the first thing that came to mind when I read the first part of your post. You may want to explore more about that on your own.
know that the worst punishment for God is to be recalled to nothingness. A few angels (just a handful) have asked Him to be recalled to nothingness and He was really sad but He accepted...Next, Jeff, there isn't a one of us who hasn't asked the question: "How could a merciful and loving God send people to hell?" That is why we need to check out the bible as a whole..and as we do and learn (which can take years as it has for me) we see more and more into all aspects in the character of God, even though we remain limited. He is God and we are not. And more and more insight and understanding of the bigger picture does come through prayer and grace as well..it is an increase in the gift of faith that we have to continually seek. It takes time and is not easy. One place which has helped me a lot is to explore the Book of Job. Not just Job's friends reactions but actually what God said to Job about His (i.e. God's) own character. The thing is God really is a God of love and He is also a God of justice. Books are written on that so won't go into details or quotes.
yeah like anybody CHOSES to go to a place of eternal torments, right...It may also help to read Genesis again and see why there is a hell. The source of hell is not God. It is a placed reserved for the Prince of this World who has authority to reign there. It all started in the garden. But we got another chance when Jesus died for us.
I don't think people go to hell who don't really chose to do so.
the only problem is that you're not doing your shopping... We are after the TRUTH, so there is no "i would prefer live only one". OF COURSE everybody would prefer live once and be freed, but this is not how it works...what about the poor muslim that is born in a muslim family and that will go to hell forever, but what fault did he do ? don't you have compassion for him ? How can you say God is just after that. The whole theolgy isn't logical, i'm sorryLast, as for the idea of "reincarnation" --- wouldn't it be lovely to believe we don't really die but do come back as some other being? I choose to believe that as we get the whole picture through Christ and accepting the gift of new life through salvation we are given the gift of everlasting Life. And in the the book of Revelation, chapters 21 and 22... we see there is coming a new Heavens and New Earth and we get to dwell with God. The Tree of Life is there in the new garden. To me that is actually better than 'reincarnation'. I am sharing these thoughts with prayers and good wishes as you let God keep changing and growing you in the knowledge of His words and ways. We are all doing that yet..even old people like me. sunflower
well we need a savoir to get out of the circle of reincarnations, that's the point ! you like beeing tortured on earth, far from God ?Hey Jeff from France, firstly welcome to christianforums.net. I am not much of a debating person, and I'm not anywhere near the kind of person that will tell you that your beliefs are wrong. However, let me just ask you one question.
Why would we be in the need of a Savior if we were just going to come back to earth as somebody or something else? Mind you I have heard a lot of convincing stories in my lifetime, but you can't believe everything that you read, hear, or see over the internet.
With all due respect, that isn't the Biblical narrative and reads more like a science fiction novel from L. Ron Hubbard. Have you looked into $cientology? If not, Mr. Hubbard's cult follows somewhat the same narrative you write about, only the names are changed. Xanu is Satan within your narrative and the soul is referred to as a Thatan trying to escape an implant (hell) which is attached to the Thatan through each incarnation.no i haven't but i've been to hell, so i think it beats any reference to it, no ?
ok
know that the worst punishment for God is to be recalled to nothingness. A few angels (just a handful) have asked Him to be recalled to nothingness and He was really sad but He accepted...
yeah like anybody CHOSES to go to a place of eternal torments, right...
to understand hell, you have to understand why there is a hell. The Bible doesn't say so, . It just warns about the place, that it is a very dangerous place, a place so dangerous that it would be better to chop you arm off than to go there. Once again i've been there, so i know perfectly what Jesus is talking about. I also know where it is. Please give me ONE reference of someone who KNOWS where hell is and i'll follow his teachings.
To understand hell, you have to understand where it comes from :
At the beginning, Satanael rebelled, we all know that, but what we don't know is what happenned next : Satanael became Satan after rebelling against God's power. Some angels joined him and soon they were a mob. Two choices occurred when the mob met a new angel : join them of be killed. Of course Satan could remove the angel's body but not the soul. So he kept the souls in a place, and kept torturing the souls. This is HELL.
Satan became the first collector, a collector of souls.
God saw that happening and was so sad for the souls He had lost and the chaos in an ever so quiet universe until now.
So He decided to act and came out with a plan of salvation: He went to see Satan, took him apart, and told him :
"You got your souls collection, but this is a bit boring right ? You torture souls as you wish, but it would be better to rule your world. I got a trade to offer to you : i'll create a planet, just for you, where the souls you collected could be incarnated.
This will be your world.
And God showed him the new world as it is, with all the suffering and despair. The devil saw all the men being tortured, the pain, the diseases, animals and humans inter-devouring themselves, sadness, then finally death. And he was all excited. But he didn't see the joy, the peace, the help from others, the piety, generosity, courage, he discarded all that...All he was interested in was the negative side of the world. Satan was interested, but he wasn't all in yet...
Then God continued :
"In this population, i'll chose a race of people, the israëlites. In one part they will constanly reject me and i'll be strong, jealous, violent and resentful. In the second part, i'll come as a man, and i'll be the exact opposite: frail, caring, peaceful, and at 33, you will finally torture and kill me on a cross. And i'll feel every hit like it's done unto me."
Satan knew God wasn't lying and his eyes started to shine : Kill God ? He knew that he could not really make Him disappear, but torture Him ? this was unexpected...
so he accepted.
and God won.
We are since then free from Satan's dominion because God bought back our freedom thanks to Him.
the only problem is that you're not doing your shopping... We are after the TRUTH, so there is no "i would prefer live only one". OF COURSE everybody would prefer live once and be freed, but this is not how it works...what about the poor muslim that is born in a muslim family and that will go to hell forever, but what fault did he do ? don't you have compassion for him ? How can you say God is just after that. The whole theolgy isn't logical, i'm sorry
well we need a savoir to get out of the circle of reincarnations, that's the point ! you like beeing tortured on earth, far from God ?
there can not be multiple deaths and reincarnations according to Hebrews 9:27ok about reincarnation if i may talk about it here it's about three main points, and also the fact that it fits perfectly the whole theology, it could not work with a single life situation.
1)
John 9:2 : "And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? "
So the poor guy to be born blind...But how can it be his fault ? Unless he lived before his birth, that's the only possibility. I have to push the point that it means the disciples were believing in reincarnation, but it was so obvious to them, that they didn't seem the need to put it clearly in the Bible, just like Flat Earth. Also the important point is that they ask a question to Jesus, if they were wrong, Jesus would have certainly said something like :"you are wrong, we don't reincarnate but we live only once" but instead he replied "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. "
2) Jesus went to hell after his death to announce the good news of Salvation. Many theologians say that the people there were asleep, simply because it fits their other theologic arguments. But i don't see Jesus going to hell simply to talk to asleep spirits for 3 days... That's just stupid. So the spirit were alive. But why is Jesus anouncing the good news to spirit that will never live again, and stay in hell forever? it makes no sense once again. Jesus anounced the good news because he wanted the poor souls suffering out there to rejoice with Him on the great hope of Salvation.
3) People going to hell forever is just preposterous. I know a lot of you believe in it, but it's just opposite to a mercyful God. The worst punishment for God, is to be recalled to nothingness. Few angels decided so and God was very sad, but he accepted. I don't say there is no hell, but we just don't stay there forever. We go there after a impious life without Christ, as a consequence, and God has nothing to do with it, that's the devil and his minions who torture souls out there. Then we reincarnate and we have another chance. The poor muslim that was born in Irak has nothing to do with the fact that he is muslim, his family is, so he is also. He would certainly not change religion like that. So it's not his fault if he doesn't belive in Christ, so why would he end up in eternal suffering if it's not his fault ? God is Just and God is Mercyful. The whole story about eternal suffering in hell makes no sense at all.
Jeff
not necessarilyno i haven't but i've been to hell, so i think it beats any reference to it, no ?