Jehovah Lord a word study

[Highway54]

Correct. God's name for the Jews is YHWH or Jehovah, but Free says it is Lord. However, Lord is what they called the Golden Calf and other idols. He brags that the name Lord, occurs over 7,000 times in the Old Testament, which is evidence of what big idol worshippers they were, far, far away from the true God.
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Adonai is translated Lord, YHWH is Jehovah in English. A great place to see the deliberate alteration is Ps 110:1 which most versions state the LORD said to my Lord, which when accurately translated would read Jehovah said to my Lord. God's name YHWH occurs we believe 6973 times in the OT, and over 7200 times in the Bible if it is properly placed in the NT when it quotes OT verses that included YHWH.

People are quite ignorant that thinking God no longer wants His name known, we all would agree that He never changes, yet most overlook Ex 9:16. And because of the way it is written, many do not realize that Rom 10:13 is a quotation of Joel 2:32 which reveals that calling on Jehovah's name is essential for salvation.

 

[Highway54]

There are two misleading statements here. First, you don't seem to understand what Highway54 is saying. He is saying (somewhat incorrectly) that the one true God's name is Jehovah (YHWH in Hebrew). You have clearly denied that Yahweh (YHWH) is the one true God, claiming that he is the false God that the Israelites worshiped. Starting here: https://christianforums.net/threads/how-to-defend-the-trinity.87711/page-28#post-1778645

Second, that actually is not what I said. What I clearly said was that "I worship YHWH. All Christians do. The NT reveals more about YHWH, namely, that he is the triune Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." I then pointed out that "The I AM is YHWH" and that "'LORD' is YHWH, as it (almost) always is in English translations." That is all starting here: https://christianforums.net/threads/how-to-defend-the-trinity.87711/page-28#post-1778735

Do you remember that I asked you if the OT was originally written in Hebrew and you didn't want to answer? In the Hebrew language, the one true God who says he is the I AM, says is name is YHWH. That is his name in Hebrew. But we aren't reading Hebrew, are we? You and I are reading English, and because the name is unpronounceable and there is no direct translation, English translators use "LORD" in place of "YHWH."


I am not at all bragging; I'm simply stating the fact that YHWH ("LORD," Yahweh, or Jehovah in English) is used over 6,500 times. That is the name of the one true God.

It's all repeated here: https://christianforums.net/threads/how-to-defend-the-trinity.87711/page-32#post-1779553

Your entire position rests on the only instance in the entire Bible where God says he is I AM, but then ignores the very next verse where he says his name is YHWH.

The one true God's name, the one God from the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation, is YHWH, sometimes translated as Yahweh or Jehovah, but often is just LORD. They all refer to the one true God who was and is the God of the Israelites and is the God of all true Christians. To deny that is to deny the God of the Bible.

Second, that actually is not what I said. What I clearly said was that "I worship YHWH. All Christians do.

I agree

The NT reveals more about YHWH, namely, that he is the triune Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." I then pointed out that "The I AM is YHWH" and that "'LORD' is YHWH, as it (almost) always is in English translations."

I disagree

 

[Free]

“These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!”

Polytheistic!
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I was only using your reasoning and showing the problem with it.

The I AM is not YHWH.

The Jews have a false god.
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Exo 3:6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
Exo 3:7 Then the LORD said, “I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters. I know their sufferings,
Exo 3:8 and I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a good and broad land, a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
Exo 3:9 And now, behold, the cry of the people of Israel has come to me, and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them.
Exo 3:10 Come, I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring my people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt.”
…
Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exo 3:15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
Exo 3:16 Go and gather the elders of Israel together and say to them, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has appeared to me, saying, “I have observed you and what has been done to you in Egypt, (ESV)

I’ve given all this previously. Note that each instance of LORD is YHWH in Hebrew. YHWH says he has come down to deliver the Israelites and will use Moses to do so. When Moses asks YHWH who should he say sent him, YHWH says to say “I AM has sent me to you.” Then, in case that isn’t clear enough, I AM then clearly says that his name is YHWH.

There simply is no other conclusion possible—I AM is YHWH. And that is the one and only YHWH who appears from the beginning of the Bible to the end.

 

[Cooper]

I was only using your reasoning and showing the problem with it.


Exo 3:6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
Exo 3:7 Then the LORD said, “I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters. I know their sufferings,
Exo 3:8 and I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a good and broad land, a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
Exo 3:9 And now, behold, the cry of the people of Israel has come to me, and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them.
Exo 3:10 Come, I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring my people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt.”
…
Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exo 3:15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
Exo 3:16 Go and gather the elders of Israel together and say to them, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has appeared to me, saying, “I have observed you and what has been done to you in Egypt, (ESV)

I’ve given all this previously. Note that each instance of LORD is YHWH in Hebrew. YHWH says he has come down to deliver the Israelites and will use Moses to do so. When Moses asks YHWH who should he say sent him, YHWH says to say “I AM has sent me to you.” Then, in case that isn’t clear enough, I AM then clearly says that his name is YHWH.

There simply is no other conclusion possible—I AM is YHWH. And that is the one and only YHWH who appears from the beginning of the Bible to the end.

And after the I AM met with Moses, they turned away and worshipped the Egyptian gods they had known for 400 years (Aaron and the Golden Calf), the Baal's and the rest. And now I can see they are as far away as they ever were, forsaking the true God and even infiltrating a Christian forum with their proselytising.

I have had enough.
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[Cooper]

Some go backwards, while the Apostle Paul went forward.

Philippians 2:5-11 ESV

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God (G2316 theos Christs pre-incarnate existence as the Word), did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God (omnipresent) has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (G2962 kurios), to the glory of God the Father.

In verse 11 Paul quotes Isaiah 45:23 “I have sworn by Myself (the One God); the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess.

Notice, in Isaiah, it is to Yahweh that all knees bow and tongues confess, and in Philippians it is to Jesus that every tongue confesses Jesus Christ is Lord, meaning Jesus is Yahweh.

(David GuziK)

 

[Free]

And after the I AM met with Moses, they turned away and worshipped the Egyptian gods they had known for 400 years (Aaron and the Golden Calf), the Baal's and the rest.

They worshiped the Golden Calf, yes, and eventually fell in and out of worshipping other gods such as Baal, but none of those were YHWH. To suggest they were is blasphemous.

And now I can see they are as far away as ever they were, even infiltrating a Christian forum with their proselytising.

Who is?

I have had enough.
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You are believing a very serious error.

 

[Free]

Some go backwards, while the Apostle Paul went forward.

Philippians 2:5-11 ESV

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God (G2316 theos Christs pre-incarnate existence as the Word), did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God (omnipresent) has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (G2962 kurios), to the glory of God the Father.

In verse 11 Paul quotes Isaiah 45:23 “I have sworn by Myself (the One God); the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess.

Notice, in Isaiah, it is to Yahweh that all knees bow and tongues confess, and in Philippians it is to Jesus that every tongue confesses Jesus Christ is Lord. Proof that Jesus is Yahweh.

(David GuziK)

Which is not where any disagreement lies and refutes what you have been saying about the “false god of the Jews.”

 

[Free]

Cooper,

Why don't you provide at least one verse or passage (not the Golden Calf) where you think YHWH is used of a false god of the Jews.

 

[Cooper]

Cooper,

Why don't you provide at least one verse or passage (not the Golden Calf) where you think YHWH is used of a false god of the Jews.

I have shown dozens of scriptures, and explained that YAHWEH is a local pagan Canaanite deity, and Moses married the daughter of one of their priests. So, he turned to the god of his father-in-law deserting the I AM. You have done nothing except to say things like "you are in serious error" without giving any reason. I have worked long and hard on this, while you have done nothing except to be obstructive. You do not have the theology and personality wise, you are not a fit person to be a moderator. I joined a lovely forum two or three weeks ago, I have been there before and was welcomed back with open arms, but held back from posting on it as I wanted to try and help here, but to no avail. So, it is goodbye from a very angry person, and I hope the owner of the site reads this.
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[Free]

I have shown dozens of scriptures, and explained that YAHWEH is a local pagan Canaanite deity, and Moses married the daughter of one of their priests. So, he turned to the god of his father-in-law deserting the I AM.

I haven't seen one verse that supports this. If you post just one right now, we can discuss it.

You have done nothing except to say things like "you are in serious error" without giving any reason.

I have clearly given the reasons several times. Firstly, because you say that YHWH is a false God of the Jews, which is blasphemous. There is only one YHWH in the Bible and it is the one true God. I have even given the passage where only once in the entire OT God says he is I AM, and then in the very next verse says his name is YHWH. That alone means there can only be one YHWH who is the God of the Jews, creator of everything, and Saviour and Redeemer.

Secondly, you then contradict your claim that YHWH is a false God of the Jews by appealing to verses which mention YHWH is Saviour and Redeemer, as though they're saying something good for Christians. You have used OT passages about YHWH being Saviour and Redeemer to show that Jesus is that Saviour and Redeemer.

You can't have it both ways. YHWH cannot be both a false God and the true Saviour, but that is what your position is stating.

I have worked long and hard on this, while you have done nothing except to be obstructive.

We are discussing an important matter in theology, are we not? If I disagree, and I certainly do, then of course I'm going to push back, just as you have continually done when you disagree. And there is nothing wrong with that. Do you think that because you worked hard and long that people should automatically agree with you that what you said is truth? Is that what determines truth? A person can work hard and long and still be in error. Look at Mormons and JWs--they've been at it for a long time; Muslims even longer.

You do not have the theology and personality wise, you are not a fit person to be a moderator.

So, because I disagree with you and am trying to show you where serious problems are with your theology, which is the very thing you are doing to me, I don't have the theology or personality to be a moderator? Why is it okay for you to try and show me where you think I am wrong but it is not okay for me to do that? Why the double standard?

I joined a lovely forum two or three weeks ago, I have been there before and was welcomed back with open arms, but held back from posting on it as I wanted to try and help here, but to no avail. So, it is goodbye from a very angry person, and I hope the owner of the site reads this.
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So, because we disagree and I am trying to show you the serious issues with your theology, and you're doing the very same to me (which is the whole premise of this thread), you're so angry you're going to leave? It seems to me that you just want to be right and are leaving because no one will agree with your theology. How is that helpful, to you and to others who you think are in error?

 

[JLB]

Word study continued:
The Israelites called idols like the golden calf "LORD," the same as they did with the pantheon of all their false gods, but we know that there can only be one true God. See below.

Isa 60:16 thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isa_44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself.

Isa_47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Isa_48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Isa_49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isa_49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship.

Isa_54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isa_59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Isa_60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isa_63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearance of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
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Yes, Jesus Christ is LORD. The LORD of the Old Testament who spoke out of the mouth of the prophets.

 

[Cooper]

Yes, Jesus Christ is LORD. The LORD of the Old Testament who spoke out of the mouth of the prophets.

And before he came among us, He created the heavens and earth as the Word, making him God over all.
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[tigger 2]

1 Tim. 3:16 (“God was manifest in the flesh”)

As this is translated in the KJV it makes Paul say that Jesus is God “manifest in the flesh.”

Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with “God” as above, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: “he” (NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [‘70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck’s translation), “he who” (ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt), “who,” or “which.” Even the equally old Douay version has “which was manifested in the flesh.” All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word ὃς (“who”) here instead of θεὸς (“God”). Why do the very best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16?[7]

Noted Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:

“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts ….” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp. 696-698, vol. 3.)

A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

“it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL writer of that manuscript]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or ὅ [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [ca. 370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.

In actuality it appears to be a combination of both (with the emphasis on the latter). You see, the word ὃς was written in the most ancient manuscripts as OC (“C” being a common form for the ancient Greek letter “S” at that time). Most often at this time the word for God (θεὸς) was written in abbreviated form as ΘC. However, to show that it was an abbreviated form, a straight line, or bar, was always drawn above ΘC. So no copyist should have mistaken ὃς (or OC) for ΘC, in spite of their similarities, simply because of the prominent bar which appeared over the one and not over the other.

What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!

Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!

Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes:

“The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott & Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.

And very trinitarian (Southern Baptist) NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about this scripture:

“He who (hos [or OC in the original text]). The correct text, not theos (God) the reading of the Textus Receptus ... nor ho (neuter relative [pronoun]), agreeing with [the neuter] musterion [‘mystery’] the reading of Western documents.” - p. 577, Vol. 4, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press.

And even hyper-trinitarian NT Greek scholar, Daniel B. Wallace uses the relative pronoun ὃς (‘who’) in this scripture and tells us:

“The textual variant θεὸς [‘god’] in the place of ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] has been adamantly defended by some scholars, particularly those of the ‘majority text’ school. Not only is such a reading poorly attested, but the syntactical argument that ‘mystery’ (μυστήριον) being a neuter noun, cannot be followed by the masculine pronoun (ὃς) is entirely without weight. As attractive theologically [for trinitarians, of course] as the reading θεὸς may be, it is spurious. To reject it is not to deny the deity of Christ, of course; it is just to deny any explicit reference in this text.” [italicized emphasis is by Wallace]. - pp. 341-342, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996.

The correct rendering of 1 Tim. 3:16, then, is: “He who was revealed in the flesh ….” - NASB. Cf. ASV; RSV; NRSV; NAB; JB; NJB; NIV; NEB; REB; ESV; Douay-Rheims; TEV; CEV; BBE; NLV; God’s Word; New Century Version; Holman NT; ISV NT; Lexham English Bible; The Message; Weymouth; Moffatt; etc.

Even if we were to insist that those later manuscripts that used theos were, somehow, correct, we would have to recognize that it is the anarthrous (without the definite article) nominative case theos which we find. This is rarely, if ever, the form used for the only true God (when the known exceptions are taken into account - see my MARTIN study). Instead, it either points to the probability that it is a corrupted OC (which of course would not have the article in the first place), or, less probable, but still possible, that Christ is being called “a god” - see my BOWGOD and DEF studies.