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How to defend the trinity!

wondering said:
What do I need to read?
There were other gods being worshipped at the time of Kings.
But were Israelites worshipping them?
I can't remember this...if you think so, please post the verses.

Because they believed other gods existed does not mean they worshipped them.
The Hebrews lived at a time when many gods were worshipped and they're to be commended for believing that there was only One God.

This is why it was such an important point to them.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Deuteronomy 4:35
To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Click to expand...
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Deuteronomy 4:35
To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

The scriptures you give are excellent, but the people themselves were daily making burnt offerings to false gods.
.
 
wondering said:
:shame

Never used this emoji before !
I'm sitting here shaking my head.
I never heard this before.
Do you mean that the Israelites worshipped other gods when they were exiled?
Or in general when they were in Israel?

To me I AM is the creator, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, Almighty, Sovereign, etc.
Could you post some scripture or something?
I've never come across this idea.
Click to expand...
Pagan Israel
In Exodus 32, we read of Aaron constructing an image in the form of a golden calf representing the pagan god Baal, who Aaron called Lord. He did this, while the true Lord gave Moses the Ten Commandments.

When Aaron had completed the golden calf he presented it to the people, saying, “These be thy gods, (plural) O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. (There is only one God.)

After the Israelites were finally settled in the “Promised Land” flowing with milk and honey, they continued in their apostasy, turning even further away from Almighty God. Their continued unfaithfulness resulted in the expulsion of Ten Tribes from the Promised Land and their decline, was made worse by their refusal to return to God for any length of time. (Book of Judges.) Despite all attempts by successive judges to prevent their descent into a horrid state of moral demise and ruin, they failed and the Ten Tribes gave themselves up to the worship of idols and Canaanite gods. Judges 21:25 sums it up with the words, “In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they wanted.”

We have to face the hard fact that the Israelites worshipped multiple false gods, as we can see in Judges 8:33 And it came to pass, as soon as Gideon was dead, that the children of Israel turned again, and went a whoring after the Baalim, and made Baal-berith their god. Jdg 10:6

The people of Israel again did what was evil in the sight of the LORD. They served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Syria, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the Ammonites, and the gods of the Philistines. And they forsook the LORD, neither did they serve him. 2Ch 33:3 The son of Hezekiah rebuilt the high places his father had demolished. He also erected altars to the Baals and made Asherah poles. He bowed down to all the starry hosts and worshiped them. Jer 9:14 They have followed the stubbornness of their hearts; and followed the Baals, as their fathers taught them.”

In 2 Kings 17 we read, “The people of Israel did secretly against the Lord their God things that were not right. They built for themselves high places in all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city. They set up for themselves pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree, and there they made offerings on all the high places, as the nations did whom the Lord carried away before them. Not only that, they did wicked things, provoking the Lord to anger. They served idols, of which the Lord had said, “You shall not do this.” Still yet, the Lord warned Israel and Judah by every prophet and every seer, saying, “Turn from your evil ways and keep my commandments and my statutes, in accordance with all the Law that I commanded your fathers, and that I sent to you by my servants the prophets.”

Being as stubborn as their fathers, who like them did not believe in the Lord their God, they refused to listen. They despised his statutes, the covenant he made with their fathers, and the warnings he gave them. They went after false idols and followed the surrounding nations, completely disregarding the Lord’s commandments and making for themselves metal images, worshipping all the host of heaven, serving Ashtaroth and Baal. Not only that, but they burned their sons and daughters as offerings to the god’s and used divination and omen. Doing evil in the sight of the Lord, they provoked him to anger. As a result, the Lord being very angry with Israel removed them out of his sight. None were left, but the tribe of Judah only. (This was the breakup of the Ten Tribes.) Judah was no better.

Notes
Astaroth (also Ashtaroth, Astarot, and Asteroth), in demonology, is a Crowned Prince of Hell. He is a male figure named after the Canaanite goddess Ashtoreth. Athirat is almost always given her full title ‘Lady Athirat of the Sea’ or as more fully translated ‘She who treads on the sea.’ Her other main divine epithet was “the creatrix (female creator) of the gods.

Elohim is used for such deities as the Moabite god Chemosh, the Sidonian goddess Astarte, and also for other majestic beings such as angels, kings and judges.

Molech. Solomon built an altar to Molech at Tophet in the Valley of Hinnon near Jerusalem known as Hell which Jesus spoke about in the Sermon on the Mount. Manasseh in his idolatrous orgy also honored this deity. Josiah desecrated the Hinnom Valley altar, but Jehoiakim revived the cult.” (Unger’s Bible Dictionary)

The whole point of the offering was that it was a human sacrifice. …” When a child was sacrificed to Moloch, a fire was lit inside the statue. The priests would then beat loudly on drums & other objects, so that the cries of the children would not be heard.”

.
 
Cooper said:
Pagan Israel
In Exodus 32, we read of Aaron constructing an image in the form of a golden calf representing the pagan god Baal, who Aaron called Lord. He did this, while the true Lord gave Moses the Ten Commandments.

When Aaron had completed the golden calf he presented it to the people, saying, “These be thy gods, (plural) O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. (There is only one God.)

After the Israelites were finally settled in the “Promised Land” flowing with milk and honey, they continued in their apostasy, turning even further away from Almighty God. Their continued unfaithfulness resulted in the expulsion of Ten Tribes from the Promised Land and their decline, was made worse by their refusal to return to God for any length of time. (Book of Judges.) Despite all attempts by successive judges to prevent their descent into a horrid state of moral demise and ruin, they failed and the Ten Tribes gave themselves up to the worship of idols and Canaanite gods. Judges 21:25 sums it up with the words, “In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they wanted.”

We have to face the hard fact that the Israelites worshipped multiple false gods, as we can see in Judges 8:33 And it came to pass, as soon as Gideon was dead, that the children of Israel turned again, and went a whoring after the Baalim, and made Baal-berith their god. Jdg 10:6

The people of Israel again did what was evil in the sight of the LORD. They served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Syria, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the Ammonites, and the gods of the Philistines. And they forsook the LORD, neither did they serve him. 2Ch 33:3 The son of Hezekiah rebuilt the high places his father had demolished. He also erected altars to the Baals and made Asherah poles. He bowed down to all the starry hosts and worshiped them. Jer 9:14 They have followed the stubbornness of their hearts; and followed the Baals, as their fathers taught them.”

In 2 Kings 17 we read, “The people of Israel did secretly against the Lord their God things that were not right. They built for themselves high places in all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city. They set up for themselves pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree, and there they made offerings on all the high places, as the nations did whom the Lord carried away before them. Not only that, they did wicked things, provoking the Lord to anger. They served idols, of which the Lord had said, “You shall not do this.” Still yet, the Lord warned Israel and Judah by every prophet and every seer, saying, “Turn from your evil ways and keep my commandments and my statutes, in accordance with all the Law that I commanded your fathers, and that I sent to you by my servants the prophets.”

Being as stubborn as their fathers, who like them did not believe in the Lord their God, they refused to listen. They despised his statutes, the covenant he made with their fathers, and the warnings he gave them. They went after false idols and followed the surrounding nations, completely disregarding the Lord’s commandments and making for themselves metal images, worshipping all the host of heaven, serving Ashtaroth and Baal. Not only that, but they burned their sons and daughters as offerings to the god’s and used divination and omen. Doing evil in the sight of the Lord, they provoked him to anger. As a result, the Lord being very angry with Israel removed them out of his sight. None were left, but the tribe of Judah only. (This was the breakup of the Ten Tribes.) Judah was no better.

Notes
Astaroth (also Ashtaroth, Astarot, and Asteroth), in demonology, is a Crowned Prince of Hell. He is a male figure named after the Canaanite goddess Ashtoreth. Athirat is almost always given her full title ‘Lady Athirat of the Sea’ or as more fully translated ‘She who treads on the sea.’ Her other main divine epithet was “the creatrix (female creator) of the gods.

Elohim is used for such deities as the Moabite god Chemosh, the Sidonian goddess Astarte, and also for other majestic beings such as angels, kings and judges.

Molech. Solomon built an altar to Molech at Tophet in the Valley of Hinnon near Jerusalem known as Hell which Jesus spoke about in the Sermon on the Mount. Manasseh in his idolatrous orgy also honored this deity. Josiah desecrated the Hinnom Valley altar, but Jehoiakim revived the cult.” (Unger’s Bible Dictionary)

The whole point of the offering was that it was a human sacrifice. …” When a child was sacrificed to Moloch, a fire was lit inside the statue. The priests would then beat loudly on drums & other objects, so that the cries of the children would not be heard.”

.
Click to expand...
OK.
We're in THEOLOGY and this thread is about the trinity.
What you're speaking of is way beyond the topic and we should stop now.
If you'd start a new thread it would be nice to discuss...
I do wonder what others think about this.
Personally, I think you're confusing what private persons did and what the leaders were enlightened by God to do.
It might go beyond this...it would be interesting to see.
Start a new thread.
 
wondering said:
OK.
We're in THEOLOGY and this thread is about the trinity.
What you're speaking of is way beyond the topic and we should stop now.
If you'd start a new thread it would be nice to discuss...
I do wonder what others think about this.
Personally, I think you're confusing what private persons did and what the leaders were enlightened by God to do.
It might go beyond this...it would be interesting to see.
Start a new thread.
Click to expand...
Tomorrow, it is late here. Where should the thread go?
.
 
Cooper said:
Every occasion of Lord, you changed to YHWH. I worship the Lord, not YHWH.
.
Click to expand...
Free said:
You do know that the OT was written in Hebrew and the NT in Greek, and that neither were originally written in English, correct?
Click to expand...
Since you're unwilling or unable to answer, Cooper, I'll provide it. Almost everyone knows that the OT was written in Hebrew and the NT in Greek. That is relevant because, as I have pointed out at least once, every instance of the English word "LORD" in the OT is used in place of the Hebrew word "YHWH."

So, when I posted the passages and added "[YHWH]," I was merely showing you the Hebrew word that is in the Hebrew manuscripts. I changed absolutely nothing. The point being, as I have stated many times already, is that the I AM also clearly says he is YHWH, and that name is used well over 6,000 times of the one true God from Gen 2 to Mal 4, from the beginning to the end of the OT.

Your position rests entirely on two verses completely divorced from their context:

Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” (ESV)

Exo 32:5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the LORD.” (ESV)

The first verse is the only place in the OT where God says he is the I AM, which is followed immediately by:

Exo 3:15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD [YHWH], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
Exo 3:16 Go and gather the elders of Israel together and say to them, ‘The LORD [YHWH], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has appeared to me, saying, “I have observed you and what has been done to you in Egypt, (ESV)

The second verse is possibly the only verse in the OT where a person clearly falsely attributes the name YHWH to an idol for the purpose of worship.

And, since you say it was the I AM who delivered Israel from the Egyptians and not YHWH:

Exo 6:1 But the LORD [YHWH] said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for with a strong hand he will send them out, and with a strong hand he will drive them out of his land.”
Exo 6:2 God spoke to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD [YHWH].
Exo 6:3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD [YHWH] I did not make myself known to them.
Exo 6:4 I also established my covenant with them to give them the land of Canaan, the land in which they lived as sojourners.
Exo 6:5 Moreover, I have heard the groaning of the people of Israel whom the Egyptians hold as slaves, and I have remembered my covenant.
Exo 6:6 Say therefore to the people of Israel, ‘I am the LORD [YHWH], and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from slavery to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great acts of judgment.
Exo 6:7 I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God, and you shall know that I am the LORD [YHWH] your God, who has brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. (ESV)

YHWH is, unequivocally, the I AM and the one true God of the Bible who took on human flesh. To deny that is a very serious error.
 
wondering said:
OK.
We're in THEOLOGY and this thread is about the trinity.
What you're speaking of is way beyond the topic and we should stop now.
If you'd start a new thread it would be nice to discuss...
I do wonder what others think about this.
Personally, I think you're confusing what private persons did and what the leaders were enlightened by God to do.
It might go beyond this...it would be interesting to see.
Start a new thread.
Click to expand...
What others think?
Could you be more specific. LOL

I read OT and see some doing good (with what God has revealed to this time)
Opposed to
I see some directly not follow instructions and be bad.

One feller here sees them all lumped together as bad. Not so.
Some good others bad.

In the grave all are awaiting Judgement. They are separated.

Now on to Trinity.

We are learning the Grace offered and slow to wrath practiced.

All the parts of the Godhead agree but have different positions of authority at different times. I learn about Trinity by observation and revelation.

A complex thread arises.
Our DNA is created by God and is extremely complex. We see through a glass darkly, but we do see.
God is goodness and mercy. If it takes wrath to help see then it just takes wrath. That does not negate the compassion.

By full disclosure we learn, and it seems God is on the way to full disclosure, but it will not come till the last trump.

If one can not stack all this together we just argue.

Confusion? No. Coming to the knowledge of truth.

That is about all I know about all this.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
BB1956 said:
The old testament was translated into koine Greek language and the new testament was written in the Koine Greek language and the word "the" is at Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 in the greek language, so all the Bibles I've read so far have the word "the" in verses Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1. So I think all those translators disagree with you when it comes to Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 whether they should have the word "the" in those scriptures
Click to expand...
Obviously they disagree. But what I say stands. There is no "the."
בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
Bereshit bara Elohim et ha-shamaim v'et ha-eretz

In Hebrew "the" is "ha-"
You see that on Heavens [shamaim] and Earth; [eretz] but NOT on Beginning [bereshit]
 
Cooper said:
Every occasion of Lord, you changed to YHWH. I worship the Lord, not YHWH.
Click to expand...
It should by Yud Hay Vav Hay, or YHVH. Some put a W instead of V.
But that is the Lord's PROPER NAME given to Moses at the burning bush.

Lord and YHVH are One and the Same. Most modern translations translate Yud Hay Vav Hay as Lord.
 
BB1956 said:
The old testament was translated into koine Greek language and the new testament was written in the Koine Greek language and the word "the" is at Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 in the greek language, so all the Bibles I've read so far have the word "the" in verses Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1. So I think all those translators disagree with you when it comes to Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 whether they should have the word "the" in those scriptures
Click to expand...
It wouldn't make sense without the word THE.
If you spoke a different language it would be easier for you to understand.

Sometimes it has to be added for clarification.
 
D-D-W said:
It should by Yud Hay Vav Hay, or YHVH. Some put a W instead of V.
But that is the Lord's PROPER NAME given to Moses at the burning bush.

Lord and YHVH are One and the Same. Most modern translations translate Yud Hay Vav Hay as Lord.
Click to expand...
I always knew that Yaweh is LORD
all caps.

Lord refers to a master or Jesus.
 
D-D-W said:
Actually it DOES make sense, but with a different meaning than having the "the" in there.

It was pointed out to me by a native Hebrew speaker.

Added - yes; to clarify the presumption of the translator.
Click to expand...
Some translation can only be done by context and believing we know what the writer meant.
It's not as easy as it seems.
 
D-D-W said:
It should by Yud Hay Vav Hay, or YHVH. Some put a W instead of V.
But that is the Lord's PROPER NAME given to Moses at the burning bush.

Lord and YHVH are One and the Same. Most modern translations translate Yud Hay Vav Hay as Lord.
Click to expand...
You see, if you search for the words 'Lord' or 'God,' hundreds of scriptures come up. But a thought came to me. There are lots of Lords who are simply the head of a household, and even idols are called Lord. So, to ensure I come up with the true God, I shall search for the words 'Lord God.' A translation I have never liked much, the NET Bible refined the result even further. So, from now on, I will search for 'Lord God,' and be focussed on the true God. Do you have any thoughts?
.
 
Last edited:
D-D-W said:
Obviously they disagree. But what I say stands. There is no "the."
בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
Bereshit bara Elohim et ha-shamaim v'et ha-eretz

In Hebrew "the" is "ha-"
You see that on Heavens [shamaim] and Earth; [eretz] but NOT on Beginning [bereshit]
Click to expand...
The koine Greek language has the definite article "ho," which in some respects is the equivalent of the English definite article.The Greek definite article may be used to restrict the meaning of a noun to refer to a specific person or thing. For example, the Greek word diabolos, rendered “slanderer,” is often used with the definite article, making it refer to a specific being, the Devil (ho diabolos, meaning “the Slanderer”). Sometimes the definite article is used with the title “Christ” (ho Khristos) and rendered “the Christ”; this construction evidently emphasizes Jesus’ office as the Messiah. The Greek definite article changes form, depending on gender, number, and case. At times, it may provide information on whether the noun is used as a subject or an object, whether a name is masculine or feminine, and so forth. Certain forms of the Greek definite article require the addition of a preposition, such as “of” or “to,” when rendered into English and other languages.

 If a noun has no article in Koine, it may, depending on the context, be rendered with an indefinite article or as an adjective. For example, when the Greek word diabolos is used without the article, it may be translated “a slanderer” or “slanderous," depending on the context.(John 6:70; 1Timothy 3:11; Titus 2:3)

when Genesis 1:1 was translated into koine Greek language before it was translated into the English language those translators who translated the Hebrew language to koine Greek language used the definite article "ho" (the) at Genesis 1:1. So you can make claims all you want, that's your right, but I don't think the scriptures Genesis 1:1 or John 1:1 are inaccurate because when they were translated into koine Greek they used the definite article "ho," which is translated "the" in the English language.
 
D-D-W said:
Obviously they disagree. But what I say stands. There is no "the."
בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
Bereshit bara Elohim et ha-shamaim v'et ha-eretz

In Hebrew "the" is "ha-"
You see that on Heavens [shamaim] and Earth; [eretz] but NOT on Beginning [bereshit]
Click to expand...
Is this conversation tied to Hebrews 7:3 ?

eddif
 
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