Jehovah Wittness & their 'sabbath day'

[Elijah674]

Gen.1

[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
......
[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
......
[8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
......
[11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
[12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[13] And the evening and the morning were the third day.
......
[14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide [[the day from the night;]] and [[let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years]]
[15] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
[16] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
[17] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
[18] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
[19] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
......
[23] And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
......
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, [and over all the earth,] and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
[29] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; [to you it shall be for meat.]
[30] And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The creation of mankind has no sin nor nationalities. And they were to work for their food as we see that they had the whole earth as their domain so far. Verse 29
And we find man in Gen. 2:15 finished with this documentation of God so far. Then comes their first ‘whole day’ from their sixth day from evening to the 7 day at evening of their life. The Memorial of the Godheads creation.
Psalms 135
[13] Thy name, O LORD, endureth for ever; and thy memorial, O LORD, throughout all generations.

OK: Created very GOOD! (Perfect) They were fully clothed with the Righteousness of Christ, SINLESS! They could be NO MORE Righteous than this! Rom. 8:1 with NO CONDEMNATION while being [IN CHRIST].
In OTHER WORDS OF GOD, we find [Mankind] (Adam + Eve) at this point were to work for a living! (again verse 29) Yet, surely they were IN CHRIST & FULLY CLOTHED & [AT ‘REST’ and IN PERFECT PEACH with [NO CONDEMNATION!]

Now we find what their first FULL EVENING TO EVENING SEVENTH DAY OF LIFE was required to do while still being Perfect.
Gen.2

[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
[2] And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
[3] And God blessed the [seventh day], and [sanctified it] because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

[4] These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

[5] And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
.....
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man [became] a living soul.
[8] And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
.....
Both were as babes at creation in MATURITY. Perfect in height, IQ and all else except they God required them to become fully MATURE. That required OBEDIENCE is found with the forbidden tree in the center of the garden. And as is also found with mankind who has their mind created in the Image of God, to make choices. (that brings up Religious FREEDOM in life & a God that REQUIRES it, and a devil & his that REQUIRES deception + force)

[15] And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Let’s skip on with this for now, & understand that six days God had work for the man to do, [who was at perfect REST in Perfection of No sin! Rom. 8:1!] yet, he (we) had (have) sixth days of [required WORK] & a [7th Day Sabbath to REST FROM THIS WORK, [[AND WORSHIP GOD ON HIS DAY FOR WORSHIP!] (you might even think as to what Adam & Eves first 7th Day Sabbath Sermon was about!)

Gen. 3 finds Adam & Eve loosing their domain of earth to satan + their Righteous Covering. They also were now finding their previous WORK of six days to now become toilsome. (LABOR)

And US??? We again FIND ROM. 8:1 OF NO CONDEMNATION WHILE WE ARE [[IN CHRIST]]. We too as seen above have [Perfect peace & REST ONLY], while we are [IN CHRIST with His FULL OBEDIENCE SEEN REQUIRED!] (verse 14 of being Led if we will be?) And even then, WE as well as they were & are DOCUMENTED TO HAVE THIS STARTING POINT OF BEING BORN [[[AGAIN!]] John 3:3-8.

And the Jehovah Witness false teaching claiming that Adam + US when we were SAVED AND SINLESS WITH NO CONDEMNATION, and then that, that VOIDED OUT THE GODHEAD’S ETERNAL REQUIRED [DAY] FOR WORSHIP.. is utter ANTI/CHRIST!! Dan. 7:25 And is surely as bad as their mother rome & the rest of the prophesied daughters she has at earth’s ENDING! Rev. 17

[4] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
[5] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOT[S] AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

--Elijah

 

[jasoncran]

uhm can you actually quote the watchtower and or tract society on that. I used to be a jw and I don't remember that.

see acts 15 on the shabat and why it doesn't apply to the gentiles and adam and eve were gentiles.

 

[farouk]

I'm finding all the colored letters and different sized typeface hard to follow, actually...

 

[jasoncran]

for the record the oper doesn't know much about the jw cult. they have more in common with each other then apart
the sda, doesn't believe in hell,believe Christ came in the late 1800's and it was a spiritual return while the jw say about 1914. they both hate the rcc.both believe they are "isreal"

 

[farouk]

for the record the oper doesn't know much about the jw cult. they have more in common with each other then apart
the sda, doesn't believe in hell,believe Christ came in the late 1800's and it was a spiritual return while the jw say about 1914. they both hate the rcc.both believe they are "isreal"

j: For some of us it's often difficult to figure just what these different groups believe. But it's interesting I guess to look historically at the context in which different groups emerged.

Blessings.

 

[jasoncran]

Charles taze russel was of the same era that ellen g white was around. and some say that she might have influenced him.

and I was right

At age sixteen, a discussion with a childhood friend on faults perceived in Christianity (such as contradictions in creeds, along with medieval traditions) led Russell to question his faith. He then investigated various other religious, but concluded that they did not provide the answers he was seeking.[16] In 1870, at age eighteen, he attended a presentation by Adventist minister Jonas Wendell. During his presentation Wendell outlined his belief that 1873 or 1874 would be the date for Christ's second coming. He later stated that although he did not entirely agree with the arguments presented by Wendell the presentation itself was sufficient to inspire within him a renewed zeal and re-establish his belief that the Bible is the word of God.[17]

from Wikipedia.

About 1870, Russell and his father established a group with a number of acquaintances to undertake an analytical study of the Bible and the origins of Christian doctrine, creed, and tradition. The group, strongly influenced by the writings of Millerite Adventist ministers George Storrs and George Stetson, themselves frequent attendees, came to the conclusion that many of the primary doctrines of the established churches, including the trinity, hellfire and inherent immortality of the soul, were not substantiated by the scriptures.[24][25][

 

[farouk]

Charles taze russel was of the same era that ellen g white was around. and some say that she might have influenced him.

j: Oh really.

I heard the story that Charles T Russell, before founding his group, wanted to join an undenomination Bible based Christian congregation. He was interviewed, and no one could put their finger exactly on what was problematic, but they got an instinct that doctrinally something did not seem right.

Doctrine is all about clear ideas and thinking about specific Bible verses. But it's also about developing an instinct about what seems right or wrong, I guess.

 

[Elijah674]

for the record the oper doesn't know much about the jw cult. they have more in common with each other then apart
the sda, doesn't believe in hell,believe Christ came in the late 1800's and it was a spiritual return while the jw say about 1914. they both hate the rcc.both believe they are "isreal"

j: For some of us it's often difficult to figure just what these different groups believe. But it's interesting I guess to look historically at the context in which different groups emerged.

Blessings.

Documentation please? on this... 'the sda, doesn't believe in hell,believe Christ came in the late 1800's and it was a spiritual return while the jw say about 1914'

--Elijah

 

[jasoncran]

well we have derailed this thread. but yes when I have read an sda post here I kinda never put it together that they had somethings in common with my old cult.

 

[farouk]

for the record the oper doesn't know much about the jw cult. they have more in common with each other then apart
the sda, doesn't believe in hell,believe Christ came in the late 1800's and it was a spiritual return while the jw say about 1914. they both hate the rcc.both believe they are "isreal"

j: For some of us it's often difficult to figure just what these different groups believe. But it's interesting I guess to look historically at the context in which different groups emerged.

Blessings.

Documentation please? on this... 'the sda, doesn't believe in hell,believe Christ came in the late 1800's and it was a spiritual return while the jw say about 1914'

--Elijah

Elijah:

Not sure; if you scroll back, you'll see the quotes of who said what.

 

[farouk]

well we have derailed this thread. but yes when I have read an sda post here I kinda never put it together that they had somethings in common with my old cult.

j: This is also I guess why there is scope from where I sit (can't speak of anyone else) to be just a bit wary also of some of the Reformed groups for whom the Sabbath is a big, big issue. All to do with the millenarian aspects of an earthly people, I think.

Reformed Christians would of course deny that they have any connection with JW thinking, but when it comes to the Sabbath and their apparent insistance that it overrules the idea of a heavenly people being under grace, for some of us that are outside those circles some similarities emerge (to me, if not to other people).

 

[Guest]

JW is

 

[farouk]

JW is

urk: You may think so; it's always good to come up with a specific, Biblical idea as to why particular things are seen in a certain way.

Blessings.

 

[jasoncran]

for the record the oper doesn't know much about the jw cult. they have more in common with each other then apart
the sda, doesn't believe in hell,believe Christ came in the late 1800's and it was a spiritual return while the jw say about 1914. they both hate the rcc.both believe they are "isreal"

j: For some of us it's often difficult to figure just what these different groups believe. But it's interesting I guess to look historically at the context in which different groups emerged.

Blessings.

Documentation please? on this... 'the sda, doesn't believe in hell,believe Christ came in the late 1800's and it was a spiritual return while the jw say about 1914'

--Elijah

you yourself have posted that you don't believe in hell and you are a former sda minister.

ellen g white is founder of the sda. therefore unless the sda has changed their doctrine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_G._White


and from the sda home page

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

26. Death and Resurrection:
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3,... 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)

that is also called soul sleep. and is close to what the jw teach.

27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

sounds like you quoted that today. and well this sounds like like the idea of annionliatiionism.

odd they mentioned no place in their doctrine for the souls of the lost.

 

[jasoncran]

a jw is short for the Jehovah's Witness. I used to be part of that cult and was more into that then the temple. what I have posted here about jews is from reading and asking. not my from being in the temple

 

[Elijah674]

Hey young'in, where oh'where have I ever taught such stuff? This is part of your post is it not????

'you yourself have posted that you don't believe in hell and you are a former sda minister.'

--Elijah

 

[jasoncran]

moving on. the watchtower society when I was into that cult didn't teach that they were obliged under the law to do the Sabbath and worshipped on sundays at 9 am. that Is why I asked for a source.its been 22 years since I was in the Kingdom Hall and I still can whip out that stuff.from the age of 4 till 18 I was into that cult ,though I drifted at times.

 

[jasoncran]

Hey young'in, where oh'where have I ever taught such stuff? This is part of your post is it not????

'you yourself have posted that you don't believe in hell and you are a former sda minister.'

--Elijah

you deny that you are a former sda minister or part of it when you post word for word on the fundamentals of what I just posted? to wit the millennium? the idea of the Sabbath which I didn't post but you seem to judge others by it.

20. Sabbath:
The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)

odd for someone to argue for a shabat and not be either a jew, a messianic jew or sda.

This is the way that I see it....

'i' see NO human life left upon earth during the 1000 years other than satan & his angels crew. When Christ comes this Second time, all wicked die and are dead! and the dead RIGHTEOUS have their FIRST RESURRECTION & they & the living RIGHTEOUS leave desolate earth for this period of 1000 years. It is after that 1000 years that they all come back to await (SEE!) their
VERDICT'S EXECUTION STAGE
of the FINAL SECOND DEATH

of satan & the pre/judged ALL STILL DEAD ONES [SECOND ETERNAL DEATH ONES]. But first they must have their resurrection, huh?

SO: Before the New Jerusalem set down in her [PROMISED LAND], ALL OF THE WICKED will now have their resurrection! They were already PRE/JUDGED LOST when Christ brought His REWARD WITH HIM at His Second Coming. (Eccl. 12:13-14 Rev. 22:12)

Think of the billions of wicked + fallen angels & satan, these humans come out of the grave the same way that they entered into it, so satan once again is 'LOOSED FROM his prison' (of circumstances Jer. 4) & they still believe this liar from the beginning, & believe that they can take the City of New Jerusalem! (think Matt. 7's Broadway & what NUMBERS mean to these one still!)

Then
FIRE COMES DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN
and cleanses the lower heaven + all of the earth from sin,
SIN + SINNERS!
This is hell & the SECOND 'ETERNAL' DEATH! (see Luke 12:47-48 for the by far worse sinner! + Obadiah 1:16 FINAL OBLITERATION OF SIN + SINNER!)

All of this will take place right before the eyes of the Saints. The EXECUTION of each with it being according to their 'type' of JURY JUDGEMENT which they had a part of! (1 Cor. 6:2-3)

It is then that God recreates the New Heavens & the New Earth & New Jerusalem will sit down in the Promised Land of Zech. 14:1-6

--Elijah

your words and compare them to the above doctrinal statement.

in the left behind at the rapture. thread note the words obliterated. that means what?hell isn't per mainstream doctrine a type of obliteration.

I recall hearing that you were a former sda minister.

 

[jeff77]

The way that the copying of the quotes on this thread is confusing.
Does sda stand for Seventh Day Adventist? or something else?

 

[jasoncran]

that is what the sda stands for. my mother in law is sda. I make it point not to discuss doctrine with her. she found out that I do know the tanach. she made the mistake of trying lay a guilt trip on me for not being kosher. so I mentioned what jesus said about meats and also peter's vision.