Jehovah's Witness

[Disciple88]

Common sense is surprisingly uncommon. And the bible is only one source of morality.

One source? How about THE source of all morality. Divine Truth. God-Breathed. Eternal Wisdom.

Eternal: Isiah 40:8
God-Breathed: 2Timothy 3:16-17

 

[Novum]

Common sense is surprisingly uncommon. And the bible is only one source of morality.

One source? How about THE source of all morality. Divine Truth. God-Breathed. Eternal Wisdom.

Eternal: Isiah 40:8
God-Breathed: 2Timothy 3:16-17

Many bible believers - christians and jews alike - would point to the ten commandments as a positive example of biblical morality. The problem is that it is very, very easy to think of situations in which defying the ten commandments would be the most ethical choice to make.

Let's take an easy one - the sixth commandment. Thou shalt not kill.

Suppose you had a time machine and were able to travel back in time to the year 1900. Would you kill Adolf Hitler as a child, if it would mean that millions of lives would be saved?

Most all rational people would. In fact, some might even argue that to not kill Hitler would be grossly unethical and unjust. It seems, then, that we have found at least one possible situation in which following the ten commandments would be unethical.

Some have responded that the sixth commandment is actually translated better as "Thou shalt not murder" instead of "Thou shalt not kill". But what is murder? By definition, murder is an unjustified killing. That's rather self explanatory, isn't it? How, if the commandment is translated in this way, is it at all helpful to us? Didn't we already know that, by definition, it's a bad idea to do something unjust?

Killing aside, there are other practices in the bible that demonstrate its failure as a source of morality. For example, there is much in the bible about the treatment of slaves. The bible does not specifically condone or condemn the practice of slavery and it is therefore thoroughly useless were we, as a society, attempting to determine the morality of slavery.

The bible cannot be rationally used, by itself, as the sole standard of morality for a person, society, or world when exceptions like these are present.

 

[Disciple88]

Common sense is surprisingly uncommon. And the bible is only one source of morality.

One source? How about THE source of all morality. Divine Truth. God-Breathed. Eternal Wisdom.

Eternal: Isiah 40:8
God-Breathed: 2Timothy 3:16-17

Many bible believers - christians and jews alike - would point to the ten commandments as a positive example of biblical morality. The problem is that it is very, very easy to think of situations in which defying the ten commandments would be the most ethical choice to make.

Let's take an easy one - the sixth commandment. Thou shalt not kill.

Suppose you had a time machine and were able to travel back in time to the year 1900. Would you kill Adolf Hitler as a child, if it would mean that millions of lives would be saved?

Most all rational people would. In fact, some might even argue that to not kill Hitler would be grossly unethical and unjust. It seems, then, that we have found at least one possible situation in which following the ten commandments would be unethical.

Some have responded that the sixth commandment is actually translated better as "Thou shalt not murder" instead of "Thou shalt not kill". But what is murder? By definition, murder is an unjustified killing. That's rather self explanatory, isn't it? How, if the commandment is translated in this way, is it at all helpful to us? Didn't we already know that, by definition, it's a bad idea to do something unjust?

Killing aside, there are other practices in the bible that demonstrate its failure as a source of morality. For example, there is much in the bible about the treatment of slaves. The bible does not specifically condone or condemn the practice of slavery and it is therefore thoroughly useless were we, as a society, attempting to determine the morality of slavery.

The bible cannot be rationally used, by itself, as the sole standard of morality for a person, society, or world when exceptions like these are present.

Lol, wow. You just wasted time showing me your worldly view. Anyways, I'm telling you, the Holy Bible is divine truth, which tells us how to live, how to act towards others(neighbors, friends, family, even Government), and most importantly who Jesus is and how He is the only way to heaven.

Now, the first two applies to believers. Non-believers do not believe that the Holy Bible is divinely written, so, with that in mind, I am not asking for worldly views, especially from people who try to twist the Scriptures to their own liking. Peter warned about people like you.

"which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures" 2 Peter 3:16

 

[Novum]

Lol, wow. You just wasted time showing me your worldly view. Anyways, I'm telling you, the Holy Bible is divine truth, which tells us how to live, how to act towards others(neighbors, friends, family, even Government), and most importantly who Jesus is and how He is the only way to heaven.

Now, the first two applies to believers. Non-believers do not believe that the Holy Bible is divinely written, so, with that in mind, I am not asking for worldly views, especially from people who try to twist the Scriptures to their own liking. Peter warned about people like you.

"which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures" 2 Peter 3:16

I'll ignore your unnecessary ad hominems. Would you care to respond to either of the two examples - killing and slavery - that I raised, or will you instead keep repeating that your bible is infallible?

 

[Disciple88]

Untill you believe that the Holy Bible is infallible, then yes, I will keep on telling you this. Untill this is established in you,(which you must become a believer which I hope someday you will, by the Grace of God) we cannot go any further.

 

[Novum]

Untill you believe that the Holy Bible is infallible, then yes, I will keep on telling you this. Untill this is established in you,(which you must become a believer which I hope someday you will, by the Grace of God) we cannot go any further.

I'm interested in discussing Christianity - that's why I'm here. But merely repeating the same things over and over is not conducive to a good discussion or debate. If you would care to talk about other aspects of christianity, that'd be just great; otherwise, I'm going to have to bow out to avoid the repetition.

 

[JM]

Untill you believe that the Holy Bible is infallible, then yes, I will keep on telling you this. Untill this is established in you,(which you must become a believer which I hope someday you will, by the Grace of God) we cannot go any further.

D88 is correct.

Can God not deal with man in different ways according to His plan in that age, that are not contrary to His nature?

 

[gingercat]

Again, a contradiction. You have your theology and we have ours. Why is it a god to us and not to you?

Ok, free, I dont believe OSAS, predestination, joining the military, "speaking in tongues", prosperity. All of the churches belong to at least one of them. I will not compromize in following Jesus for the sake of gathering.

I believe all of them are unbiblical. Now dont come after me about them. I will not take your bait in debating any of them. You have enough debates.

 

[Disciple88]

Again, a contradiction. You have your theology and we have ours. Why is it a god to us and not to you?

Ok, free, I dont believe OSAS, predestination, joining the military, "speaking in tongues", prosperity. All of the churches belong to at least one of them. I will not compromize in following Jesus for the sake of gathering.

You don't believe in election? (election is another word for predestination)

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, haveing predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" Ephesians 1:4-5

and what is the whole sake of gathering thing about?

 

[Free]

For the second time in this thread you didn't answer what I asked gingercat. Once again you alone know what the truth is in Christianity, you alone can judge what is right doctrine and what is wrong.

I believe all of them are unbiblical. Now dont come after me about them. I will not take your bait in debating any of them. You have enough debates.

Well it's nice to know that you can judge how many debates someone can handle. I am not interested in debating these doctrines, I just want a straight answer out of you.

Do you think that JW's are Christian? Why or why not?

 

[Novum]

Can God not deal with man in different ways according to His plan in that age, that are not contrary to His nature?

No. Let's look again at slavery. Slavery existed in ancient times, in the US during the 1800s, and it's still around even today in some third-world countries.

Is slavery, in any form, unethical? Most people today would say yes. Why should we treat ancient man differently and accept slavery as justifiable, or ethical, in ancient times? Should we do the same thing for the US, and for some reason hold our forefathers to lower standards just so we can justify their slavery?

What about slavery in third-world countries today? Are the US and those countries both justified? If so, why is god treating some men today differently than others?

 

[gingercat]

Do you think that JW's are Christian? Why or why not?

I believe they are Christians. But according to many chruches they are not. I just wanted to know if they are worth looking into. You sound so hostile; why?

All I want to know is JW. Why are you getting so upset?

All I want to know is why they are called cult by many churches.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

All I want to know is JW....All I want to know is why they are called cult by many churches.

Good question. Just curious what do you believe the Bible says about Jesus? Does the Bible say Jesus is fully God? Does the Bible say Jesus is fully man?

 

[gingercat]

All I want to know is JW....All I want to know is why they are called cult by many churches.

Good question. Just curious what do you believe the Bible says about Jesus? Does the Bible say Jesus is fully God? Does the Bible say Jesus is fully man?

Noc, what does have to do JW?

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

All I want to know is JW....All I want to know is why they are called cult by many churches.

Good question. Just curious what do you believe the Bible says about Jesus? Does the Bible say Jesus is fully God? Does the Bible say Jesus is fully man?

Noc, what does have to do JW?

JW, among other things deny the humanity of Jesus. Now would you please answer the question.

 

[gingercat]

[quote="Nocturnal_Principal_X":82e64]

All I want to know is JW....All I want to know is why they are called cult by many churches.

Good question. Just curious what do you believe the Bible says about Jesus? Does the Bible say Jesus is fully God? Does the Bible say Jesus is fully man?

Noc, what does have to do JW?

JW, among other things deny the humanity of Jesus. Now would you please answer the question.[/quote:82e64]

Noc, I will not go into a trinity debate.
I do believe Jesus is Son of God and Savior.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Noc, I will not go into a trinity debate.
I do believe Jesus is Son of God and Savior.

Ok, I'm not going to debate you, please answer the questions.

 

[gingercat]

I just did, noc

 

[Imagican]

I too believe that Jesus was/IS the Son of God.

Noc, I thought that JW's denied the 'diety' of Jesus. They do so by opting that Jesus IS the Son of God, NOT God Himself.

 

[Imagican]

Here, let's try this:

Jeremiah 6:13

13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.

I know that there will be many that will quickly point out that this is the OT. SO!! Is there ANY reason whatsoever to believe that the state in which we find our condition now to be ANY different than the state that the Jewish folks found themselves over and over? I mean, these were the 'chosen' of God from the beginning.

We have MORE evidence NOW that this is our state than at ANY time in HISTORY. And, seeing as how there are many, (if not most), that realize that we are quickly approaching the 'end', doesn't it then become OBVIOUS that for this to be true, then 'almost' ALL must be 'lost' instead of 'saved' as they 'think'.

I still stand by my previous statement that the Jews mostly believed that they were following the law and the will of God, EVEN when what they actually practiced couldn't have been 'FURTHER' from the truth. Are we ANY different now? Hardly.

So, will you mark my words, take heed and dig deep to find the answers that you profess to desire above all else? Or, continue in the 'playing of the game', pretending to fulfill something that isn't even understood?

The answer? START OVER. Throw out all your images and idols. Abandon the groves and buildings built to worship gods of men. Do NOT as your leaders do. Stop standing in the streets, (churches), with you hands lifted in front of your brothers and sisters, praying out loud so that they may think that you have something that they don't. Put aside 'self' and place your faith and heart in the hands of God. Begin again to build your treasures in heaven rather than here on earth. And above these, once again attempt to understand the LOVE of God so that you too may be able to Love God above all else and your neighbor as yourself. For God is a respecter of NO man. Are we to argue with or deny this?