Jeremiah 17:9.

[justbyfaith]

justbyfaith and gordon777, in the interests of defending the character of God, it needs to be pointed out that God is far from demanding perfection as has been claimed nor does he see every single person on earth as "desperately wicked" as you also claim. Jesus never once told either the crowds or is disciples that they were "desperately wicked" which makes no distinction between those who are desperately wicked and the righteous. You won't like it, but the Bible continually speaks of the righteous as real people and even names names of those who are. David wrote in the Psalms of what God does for the righteous knowing that there are some. Obviously the understanding of what the desperately wicked are and the righteous is different in the mind of God than what you are speaking of.

I can understand this as Calvinism introduced a concept of man that accuses him, without exception, of being totally depraved, which is the worst a man can be morally. A depraved person has no morals at all. This theological constructs teaches a man to be the accuser of all man (who does that sound like) and robs anyone of any credit for anything good they do. Hence we have the view of man that you both express that does not match the view of the Bible.

Let's look at the view the Bible expresses of man as a whole. Are all men desperately wicked in the eyes of God?
No and this is easy to prove because when a statement is made that insists "all A are B" one only needs one exception to prove that the statement is false.

"All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only one belonging to Jeroboam who will be buried, because he is the only one in the house of Jeroboam in whom the LORD, the God of Israel, has found anything good." God found something good in a man.

"Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." Does God speak face to face to a man who is desperately wicked? No, because Jesus said "without holiness shall no man see God."

"For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to give strong support to those whose heart is blameless toward him." Humm, so God is looking through the world to find those whose heart is innocent towards Him. What does this tell us? Do we think God never finds such a one? If so, why bother looking?

So does God "demand perfection" as gordon777 claims? Let's look at the whole of that passage.

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers,i what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The Greek word for "perfect" is also translated elsewhere as "mature." What is verse 48 referring to? It is referring to loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute you. Is this really difficult? He means, of course, doing good to those who act like your enemies. I live in Europe and am still impressed with how the Americans spent money building up the country there was literally their enemies in war when it was over. This did not occur after WWI which the winners deeply punished the losers financially. They did not love their enemies. After WWII, they did. And these are not Christian people in particular. I have seen atheists do good to those who might not be their enemies, they certainly made their life difficult. I have seen atheists give a birthday present to a coworker who made their work very difficult. So what is Jesus saying? He is telling us in this matter of how we treat those who treat us badly, we are to be "mature." He is not saying God demands moral perfection out of us.

In Matthew 25 we see the servant coming to Jesus with differing amounts of success. Those who did something received a "well done good and faithful servant" although we can assume that by no means were they perfect in their service. Jesus said those who give a cup of cold water in his name will not lose their reward from God. We can assume that the water giver was not morally perfect in every choice. He is called the Judge of all the earth and that means that he weighs the choices a man makes considering all the aspects not that God has one standard of measure, 100% perfect in every choice or "desperately wicked."

My experience is this although this is not scripture and I heard it first from someone else, God is easy to please and hard to satisfy. The man who is afraid and nevertheless does the right thing demonstrates courage whereas the man who is not afraid and does the very same thing does not. God does not judge from the outside but the inside.

Now in fairness, I have to admit that our hearts are very much worse than we suspect. Perhaps, when we see them we will agree that we our desperately wicked. But we make a mistake if we decide that all are desperately wicked judging them and accusing them of evil. We can judge our own hearts or ask God to judge them and this is right. We take the part of the accuser of man when we decide all men are desperately wicked (totally depraved.) In any case, the heart, our heart can rightly be said to be desperately wicked. Best to leave it there.

Jesus, in Matthew 5:17-20, substantiated the writings of the Old Testament; and therefore by proxy His doctrine includes what is written in Jeremiah 17:9.

If a doctrine is in the Bible, then it is true and Jesus is 100% behind it.

I would say that if an atheist did give a birthday present to someone who was giving them a hard time, that, even though they didn't believe in God, they probably did believe in spiritual principles, such as the idea that if you feed your enemy when he is hungry, you will heap burning coals upon his conscience. Said atheist may have experienced qualms of conscience when someone fed them when they were hungry.

And it is not necessarily a virtue to want to heap coals on the conscience of someone who is your enemy. It just may be that you consider that it is an expedient way to deal with the situation.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus, in Matthew 5:17-20, substantiated the writings of the Old Testament; and therefore by proxy His doctrine includes what is written in Jeremiah 17:9.

There is no connection between those passages at all. Where do you see that the NT fulfills the statement in the old? There is no LAW that says hearts are wicked.

If a doctrine is in the Bible, then it is true and Jesus is 100% behind it.

True, but your position that people are desperately evil, all of them all the time, is not a doctrine in the Bible.

I would say that if an atheist did give a birthday present to someone who was giving them a hard time, that, even though they didn't believe in God, they probably did believe in spiritual principles, such as the idea that if you feed your enemy when he is hungry, you will heap burning coals upon his conscience. Said atheist may have experienced qualms of conscience when someone fed them when they were hungry.

None of that fits the person. They are a PhD scientist and confirmed atheist. But I can understand that it is difficult to see an example that defies your view of people. Bad people sometimes do good things, morally good things.

And it is not necessarily a virtue to want to heap coals on the conscience of someone who is your enemy. It just may be that you consider that it is an expedient way to deal with the situation.

He was not trying to heap coals on the conscience of someone who makes life difficult. It was the other's birthday and there was no hidden goal. That atheist is otherwise not a good person, don't mistake me. But doing good to those who do not do good to you is not that difficult. You two think it is impossible.

The problem is not that atheists do not do moral good now and again. The problem is no good any man does makes up for the bad they have done. We cannot do anything to acquire forgiveness for wrong deeds done. That is the problem.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is no connection between those passages at all. Where do you see that the NT fulfills the statement in the old? There is no LAW that says hearts are wicked.

In Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus gives His approval of the entire Old Testament. This means that He holds the Old Testament to be inspired and useful for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness.

Thus, Christ Himself would have held that Jeremiah 17:9 was inspired scripture; and that it was a truth to be expounded upon.

In fact, He did speak on the subject in Matthew 7:11 and Luke 11:13. He called His disciples "evil".

True, but your position that people are desperately evil, all of them all the time, is not a doctrine in the Bible.

It is. It is specifically found in the Bible verse Jeremiah 17:9.

He was not trying to heap coals on the conscience of someone who makes life difficult. It was the other's birthday and there was no hidden goal. That atheist is otherwise not a good person, don't mistake me. But doing good to those who do not do good to you is not that difficult. You two think it is impossible.

The problem is not that atheists do not do moral good now and again. The problem is no good any man does makes up for the bad they have done. We cannot do anything to acquire forgiveness for wrong deeds done. That is the problem.

You are, of course, contradicting the words of Jesus Himself:

Mat 7:18, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus gives His approval of the entire Old Testament.

He ended the sacrifices in the temple. We no longer follow the Mosaic law. Go to any church and your will not see what Moses set up. Jesus ended the Mosaic covenant. He established a new covenant.

This means that He holds the Old Testament to be inspired and useful for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness.

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." The Old Testament does teach that which gives instruction in righteousness.

Thus, Christ Himself would have held that Jeremiah 17:9 was inspired scripture; and that it was a truth to be expounded upon.

He never taught it. What you are doing is taking ONE isolated scripture and without comparing it to any other, changing it to mean something no writer of the Bible thought or said.

In fact, He did speak on the subject in Matthew 7:11 and Luke 11:13. He called His disciples "evil".

He did not say they have desperately evil hearts all the time, all of them. Compared to God, we are evil, but that does not mean we are desperately evil all the time and everyone. Jesus said the little children are like those in Heaven. Sorry but that means that they are NOT desperately evil all the time and everyone.

It is. It is specifically found in the Bible verse Jeremiah 17:9.

Again, ONE VERSE is the only one you want to look at so that you can accuse the brethren of great evil. The rest you ignore.

You are, of course, contradicting the words of Jesus Himself:

Mat 7:18, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Ah, there are good trees...good trees.....bringing forth good fruit. You do not want to use that verse if you want to maintain your view of man.

 

[justbyfaith]

If you are going to deny the reality of what scripture teaches (in Jeremiah 17:9) without any basis, then I have nothing more to say to you, Dorothy Mae.

It is the Holy Spirit's job to convict the world of sin.

If He hasn't done that in you yet, well, I suppose I will just have to pray that He does it in you. I will.

As it is, you are denying one of the most basic scriptures in all of the Bible (Jeremiah 17:9). I say to you verily that it is foundational.

I'm not even certain that anyone who rejects the truth of Jeremiah 17:9 is saved / born again.

Have you considered that it is very likely that the reason why you don't want to believe that your heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, might be because you are deceiving yourself; since the heart is deceitful?

 

[justbyfaith]

He never taught it. What you are doing is taking ONE isolated scripture and without comparing it to any other, changing it to mean something no writer of the Bible thought or said.

By all means give your exposition as to how the meaning of Jeremiah 17:9 changes when you apply other scripture to it.

 

[justbyfaith]

He did not say they have desperately evil hearts all the time, all of them.

Jesus, in saying that the disciples were evil, was building on the foundation of the Old Testament.

So, His statements would have been spoken in agreement with what was already written, in Jeremiah 17:9.

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, ONE VERSE is the only one you want to look at so that you can accuse the brethren of great evil. The rest you ignore.

Jeremiah 17:9 is not the only verse I look at to make my conclusion. There are many others. I will mention a few here.

Romans 7:18, 1 John 1:8, 1 Timothy 1:15, Matthew 7:11, Luke 11:13, Romans 3:23, etc.

Ah, there are good trees...good trees.....bringing forth good fruit. You do not want to use that verse if you want to maintain your view of man.

The point being that if someone is a good tree, they cannot bear bad fruit; and if a bad tree, they cannot bear good fruit.

Which would indicate that the good deed of your atheist friend was very likely tainted by evil motives.

I have also mentioned that a person who has the Holy Spirit has been, in effect, "pickled".

They are still a cucumber, and therefore Jeremiah 17:9 still applies. However, because they have been permeated by the Holy Spirit, they may be defined as what Jesus refers to here as a "good tree".

 

[Dorothy Mae]

By all means give your exposition as to how the meaning of Jeremiah 17:9 changes when you apply other scripture to it.

I challenge you to do so. I laid out that chapter. Words are cheap.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jeremiah 17:9 is not the only verse I look at to make my conclusion. There are many others. I will mention a few here.

First, it needs to be said you think all men are all the time are desperately evil. It is much safer to just quote the verse and not say specially what you think that means for all men all the time.

Romans 7:18,

Paul speaking of himself ONLY. (First person singular is the author speaking of himself alone.)

1 John 1:8,

Having sin does not mean that all men are desperately evil all the time.

1 Timothy 1:15,

Jesus came to save sinners..yes. Paul thinks he is the worst speaks of him alone, not everyone in the whole world all the time (which is your position.)

Matthew 7:11,

Does not say all men are desperately evil all the time. It just does not say that.

Luke 11:13,

That is the same as Matt 7:11 so that is not another verse supporting your view that all people are desperately evil all the time.

Romans 3:23, etc.

OK, all have sinned. Does not say all men are desperately evil all the time.

The point being that if someone is a good tree, they cannot bear bad fruit; and if a bad tree, they cannot bear good fruit.

That is right and so THESE people, the good trees, are NOT desperately evil all the time. If Jesus describes good trees, then there are good trees. You need to avoid that scripture as it shows your position is wrong.

Which would indicate that the good deed of your atheist friend was very likely tainted by evil motives.

I have also mentioned that a person who has the Holy Spirit has been, in effect, "pickled".

They are still a cucumber, and therefore Jeremiah 17:9 still applies. However, because they have been permeated by the Holy Spirit, they may be defined as what Jesus refers to here as a "good tree".

Your understanding is way too simple....it is binary with black and white are the only two options and really only black....all desperately evil all the time even if they give a cup of water to a disciple...Jesus does not share your view.

For anyone else, people are very complex. This idea that one sentences sums up the moral make-up of all people all the time is foolish.

 

[justbyfaith]

I challenge you to do so. I laid out that chapter. Words are cheap.

I'm not the one claiming that the meaning would change with other scripture. You are.

Put your money where your mouth is.

 

[justbyfaith]

Paul speaking of himself ONLY.

You seem to me to be in denial. Romans 7:18 is clearly speaking of the human condition.

In Romans 7:14-25, Paul is using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION to define carnality in order that he might win the carnal person.

Now, this state, spoken of in the passage, is the default state of every human being.

We only change from being in that state when we are adequately "pickled".

Paul thinks he is the worst speaks of him alone, not everyone in the whole world all the time (which is your position.)

It is a "trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptation"...that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners...OF WHOM I AM CHIEF.

That is the same as Matt 7:11 so that is not another verse supporting your view that all people are desperately evil all the time.

Let me suffice it to say that these two verses are saying that you are evil period. Do you accept this doctrine?

OK, all have sinned.

All "come short" (present tense) of the glory of God.

...Jesus does not share your view.

Actually, He does. He gave me my view.

 

[justbyfaith]

Rom 6:10, For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11, Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2Co 5:21, For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

It should be clear from this passage that Jesus died unto sin once; and that the definition of this is that He became sin for us in order that we might become the righteousness of the Lord in Him.

We are to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin in the same manner ("Likewise")...

This is to say that in our flesh we are utterly sinful.

Now, there is also this, in context:

Rom 6:7, For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Now this is saying that, while we are utterly sinful in our flesh, in that we are dead unto sin; the fact that we are dead indicates that we have been set free from the power of sin.

This is a mystery; that we are no longer controlled by sin for that we recognize that we are utterly sinful.

I believe that it has to do with the fact that we have ceased to trust in ourselves and have begun to rely on the Holy Spirit to live His life in us and through us (Galatians 2:20).

 

[Iconoclast]

If you are going to deny the reality of what scripture teaches (in Jeremiah 17:9) without any basis, then I have nothing more to say to you, Dorothy Mae.

It is the Holy Spirit's job to convict the world of sin.

If He hasn't done that in you yet, well, I suppose I will just have to pray that He does it in you. I will.

As it is, you are denying one of the most basic scriptures in all of the Bible (Jeremiah 17:9). I say to you verily that it is foundational.

I'm not even certain that anyone who rejects the truth of Jeremiah 17:9 is saved / born again.

Have you considered that it is very likely that the reason why you don't want to believe that your heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, might be because you are deceiving yourself; since the heart is deceitful?

She betrays the truth of scripture with such false teaching. This way she can invent any idea she would like to invent without being accountable.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You seem to me to be in denial. Romans 7:18 is clearly speaking of the human condition.

In Romans 7:14-25, Paul is using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION to define carnality in order that he might win the carnal person.

Now, this state, spoken of in the passage, is the default state of every human being.

We only change from being in that state when we are adequately "pickled".

It is a "trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptation"...that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners...OF WHOM I AM CHIEF.

Let me suffice it to say that these two verses are saying that you are evil period. Do you accept this doctrine?

All "come short" (present tense) of the glory of God.

Actually, He does. He gave me my view.

Adieu

 

[gordon777]

I have also mentioned that a person who has the Holy Spirit has been, in effect, "pickled".

They are still a cucumber, and therefore Jeremiah 17:9 still applies. However, because they have been permeated by the Holy Spirit, they may be defined as what Jesus refers to here as a "good tree".

If there might be Christians present on this forum, I think it is important to clarify something. Simplicity, not confusion is in Christ, therefore one verse being the title of a thread, gives a warning sign that confusion may come up ( and has) in the discussion of a single verse of scripture.

Now, to alleviate this wrong approach, the right approach will set it right. My approach is simple, ( simplicity in Christ) to simply look at the chapter of Jeremiah 17.

From Jeremiah 17:7, until 17:14, everything is simple and good and easy to understand.

Blessed is the man that trusts and hopes in the Lord, they are a tree planted that does not see heat or drought, they never cease from yielding fruit.

This next verse however, of 17:9, has been misconstrued to revolve the whole thread around the heart being deceitful.

But the verse after that, does not continue in that opinion, it is the Lord trying those reins, ( heart) to give acco4rding as that heart ( reins) and fruit from it, is.

Riches not gotten by right, are foolish. They ( as the partridge) do no come to hatch ( no fruit) and are left in the midst of the days of that foolish man. ( those planted of the Lord never cease from yielding fruit, they are eternal life fruit producing.)

The glorious high throne from the beginning, is the place of our sanctuary. ( to term people as continuing in deceitful hearts, is not equal with the testimony of our place of the glorious high throne from the beginning/God sanctuary is in man/not in deceit.)

Now we see the purpose of the heart declared to be deceitful above all things. That is for all who forsake the Lord, the fountain of living waters ( why else would the heart be understood as deceitful above all things, but because that heart has departed from God as told here ?)

The final conclusion, yields the opinion of our heart continuing to be deceitful as void. Because God is required ( when the non deceitful heart seeks the Lord and trusts in Him, not man) to heal us ( heal our heart) and we shall be healed ( of any deceitful heart) and to save us, and we shall be saved. ( the deceitful heart above all things, is exactly what prevents men from being saved.)




Jeremiah 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.
8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
11 As the partridge sitteth on eggs, and hatcheth them not; so he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool.
12 A glorious high throne from the beginning is the place of our sanctuary.
13 O Lord, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters.
14 Heal me, O Lord, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise.



Further consideration for people, is how it is described exactly as I just told in Psalms 7, of the upright ( not deceitful in heart) who seek the Lord, seeing us who seek the Lord, ( in the faith of Jesus Christ) for their righteousness and integrity.) and this again, is told directly, ( not silly peoples invented and vain diversions) of God trying the hearts and reins.


Psalm 7:8 The Lord shall judge the people: judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.
10 My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.




Psalms 26 is again yet another same testimony form God for us.

For God to judge us, ( not just David, all scripture is for all men in all things) by walking in our integrity, of trusting in the Lord, so we never slide.

For God to examine us, and prove us, trying our reins and our heart.

Gods lovingkindness ( testimony of Christ dying for us) before our eyes, which is walking in His truth. ( of HIs love)

Keeping far from the wicked ( talkers, and doers) washing in innocence, to compass the altar of the Lord, loving the habitation of His house, where honour dwells. ( God dwells in us where honour is, and not where a deceitful heart of the wicked is/A glorious high throne from the beginning is the place of our sanctuary.)



Psalms 26:1 Judge me, O Lord; for I have walked in mine integrity: I have trusted also in the Lord; therefore I shall not slide.
2 Examine me, O Lord, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.
3 For thy lovingkindness is before mine eyes: and I have walked in thy truth.
4 I have not sat with vain persons, neither will I go in with dissemblers.
5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.
6 I will wash mine hands in innocency: so will I compass thine altar, O Lord:
7 That I may publish with the voice of thanksgiving, and tell of all thy wondrous works.
8 Lord, I have loved the habitation of thy house, and the place where thine honour dwelleth.

 

[justbyfaith]

Most assuredly, when a person realizes that they are forgiven of having a heart that is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, it will produce a change in their attitude towards God.

They will begin to love Him instead of hating Him.

However, when we begin to think that we deserve grace...

This is not conducive to the gratitude that can produce such a love in the heart of a man.

In order to have such a gratitude, we must know that our entrance into heaven is completely undeserved...

That, in fact, we deserve hell and then the lake of fire as the result of what proceeds from our very wicked hearts.

The problem with a deceitful heart is that it will never acknowledge its own wickedness...for the person with such a heart is deceiving themselves.

 

[justbyfaith]

I do believe that a heart that is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked can be changed.

From a Jeremiah 17:9 heart to a Luke 8:15 heart,

via Ezekiel 36:25-27.

However, it should be clear that the default for every person's heart is Jeremiah 17:9.

Therefore, if anyone has never received Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, and been born again of the Holy Spirit,

It is true of them that their heart in its current state is that it is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9).

 

[Highway54]

I find myself coming back to this basic understanding...that my heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked...

As Jesus said even to His disciples, "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit (good things) to those who ask Him?"

It leads me to the conclusion that I cannot rely on myself any longer; but I must endeavor to trust in the Holy Spirit's leading and guiding on a moment-by-moment basis, 24/7.

It should be clear that if anyone trusts in his own heart, he is a fool.

It is only through faith in Jesus that we receive the Holy Ghost (Galatians 3:14).

Knowing that I am evil, I cannot live my own life any more; but I endeavor to let Christ live His life in and through me.

Very true, we are our own worst enemy at times. Humans naturally lean upon their own understanding, so that is why it is best to be avid Bible readers so our natural inclination will to be to do things God's way.

 

[gordon777]

They will begin to love Him instead of hating Him.

However, when we begin to think that we deserve grace...

This is not conducive to the gratitude that can produce such a love in the heart of a man.

In order to have such a gratitude, we must know that our entrance into heaven is completely undeserved...

That, in fact, we deserve hell and then the lake of fire as the result of what proceeds from our very wicked hearts.

The problem with a deceitful heart is that it will never acknowledge its own wickedness...for the person with such a heart is deceiving themselves.

To speculate what people will or will not do, not only is not required of God, it does not speak Gods word ( of faith) it cant therefore be for any good purpose.

Here is a comparison below to emphasise this. ( regarding Jeremiah 17:9.)


The scriptures which all speak of Christ, see the prophet describing what we must all believe in, to be thoroughly washed from our iniquity, cleansed from sin, because against God only have we sinned and done evil in His sight, that God may be justified when He speaks and be clear when He judges. ( this is why, and who we confess to, and confession is unto salvation, when it is a true confession. Romans 10:10.)

We believe that God hides from that sin, blotting out all iniquities,( Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. Colossians 2:14.) and creates in us a clean heart, and renews a right Spirit within us. To not cast us away from His presence, to not take His Holy Spirit from us. That God has restored to us the joy of His salvation, ( the joy no man can take from us. John 16:22.) and God upholds us with His free Spirit, which is the teaching of transgressors of the Lords ways ( of His faith.) and it is the converting of sinners unto God. ( converted as little children. Matthew 18:3. The conversion of the Gentiles. Acts 15:3. Hiding a multitude of sins from the sinners error of his ways, to save a soul from death. James 5:20.)



Psalm 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Psalm 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.


Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

John 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.



What if some never believed ? That does not make the faith of God as no effect.

As just quoted above in Psalms 51, that God may be justified in His sayings, and may overcome when He is judged.

Which is the conclusion of the whole world, all gone out of the way, their tongues using deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips, their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.

Therefore by the deeds of the law. ( the law which is not of this faith, Galatians 3:12, of belief in these sayings of God which He spoke to us.) no flesh is justified in His sight, because by the law is the knowledge of sin. ( all are become guilty before God. Romans 3:19.)




Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.



Now, that the righteousness of God is declared, God is believed to be just, to be the justifier of him who believes in Jesus. ( Restored unto us the joy of His salvation, upholds us by His free Spirit, the joy no man can take from us. Psalm 51:12. John 16:22.)

We are persuaded that neither death, nor life, not angels, not principalities, no powers, not anything now, or to come, no height, no depth, no creature, is able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus.



Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.