Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Jeremiah 17:9.

You seem to me to be in denial. Romans 7:18 is clearly speaking of the human condition.
English lesson: “in me” means the speaker is referring ONLY to themselves.
In Romans 7:14-25, Paul is using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION to define carnality in order that he might win the carnal person.
No he isn’t. He’s speaking of himself. When he calls himself the “chief of sinners” he means himself. Obviously all cannot all be the chief of sinners.
Now, this state, spoken of in the passage, is the default state of every human being.
Bible doesn’t say so, just you.
We only change from being in that state when we are adequately "pickled".
That’s your personal view.
It is a "trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptation"...that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners...OF WHOM I AM CHIEF.
English lesson: “I am” is first person singular and refers to the speaker ALONE.
Let me suffice it to say that these two verses are saying that you are evil period. Do you accept this doctrine?
No, you and I aren’t mentioned. That requires second person plural or singular.
All "come short" (present tense) of the glory of God.

Actually, He does. He gave me my view.
When you claim personal revelation, we are required to test it. Having done so, it’s very clear HE didn’t. Very clear.
 
English lesson: “in me” means the speaker is referring ONLY to themselves.
Not necessarily. Here, Paul is using a literary tactic; and in referring to "me" he is including the human race.
No he isn’t. He’s speaking of himself. When he calls himself the “chief of sinners” he means himself. Obviously all cannot all be the chief of sinners.
He is saying that it is a trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptation that "I am the chief of sinners"...that we should all adopt that saying for our own lives.
Bible doesn’t say so, just you.
The Holy Ghost says it, too (and the Bible does say it).

But I would encourage you to read Hebrews 3:7-8, Hebrews 3:15, and Hebrews 4:7.
That’s your personal view.
Your way of deflecting what you don't want to believe.

See 2 Timothy 4:3.
English lesson: “I am” is first person singular and refers to the speaker ALONE.
In 1 Timothy 1:15, Paul sets forth a "trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptation" that is to be adopted by all of us.
No, you and I aren’t mentioned.
If ye then, being evil...is the language in both verses. How are you and I not mentioned? Jesus is speaking these things to all of us....otherwise they wouldn't have been recorded in the NT.
 
Anyone notice along with me, that a personal discussion seems to be the preferred/chosen focus, plus given approval, rather than a glimmer of interest in speaking about the thread title, of Jeremiah 17:9, as one thought was wanted.



A question should be asked, of the heart being deceitful and wicked, as per Jeremiah 17:9



Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?




Look with me, what that simple questioning can reveal, of the words used to describe the heart of the wicked being deceitful. Beginning at Proverbs and working the rest of the way through the entire bible.


The wicked are they, wo work these deceitful works, instead of the other side of events, to sow righteousness. ( with peace, James 3:18.)

A true witness also delivers souls, and the same deceitful worker speaks lies.




Proverbs 11:18 The wicked worketh a deceitful work: but to him that soweth righteousness shall be a sure reward.

James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.


Proverbs 14:25 A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies.



They ( the rich) have that deceitful meat. We cannot labour to be rich, ( as the wicked) we have to cease from self wisdom ( of the rich and the wicked.) their riches and wisdom flies away as the eagle. They have an evil eye, they are as they think in their heart, ( the heart that is wicked above all) they speak to you, but their heart ( deceitful heart) is not with you.

The wounds of a friend are faithful, the kisses of an enemy ( Judas betrayer. Luke 22:48.) are deceitful.

The wise man keeps his words in, the fool utters all. If the ruler hears lies, all his servants are wicked. ( they have the heart that is deceitful, and wicked above all) The poor and the deceitful man meet together, ( forum) the Lord lightens both their eyes.

Favour is deceitful, beauty vain, the woman that fears the Lord, she shall be praised.




Proverbs 23:3 Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.
4 Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.
5 Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.
6 Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:
7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

Proverbs 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.


Proverbs 29:11 A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards.
12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
13 The poor and the deceitful man meet together: the Lord lighteneth both their eyes.


Proverbs 31:30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised.




In preparation for the new covenant/new testament of Jesus Christ, the Spirit of Christ testifies in Zephaniah of His remnant, to not do iniquity, to not speak lies, to not have a deceitful tongue, for they feed ( of the Lord) and lie down, and none ( of the wicked, whose heart is desperately wicked and deceitful.) shall make them afraid.




Zephaniah 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.




Here Jesus preaches the Gospel to us, and they who receive the Word among thorns, through the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, have themselves choked from the Word, and become unfruitful.

We renounce the hidden things of dishonesty ( the heart which is deceitful above all and desperately wicked) we do not walk in craftiness nor handle the Word of God deceitfully, but manifest the truth commending to every mans conscience in the sight of God.

Not being as those false apostles, who are deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

But putting off the former conversation concerning the old man, which is corrupt, according to the deceitful lusts. ( of the heart and mind)

God has given them up to uncleanness, through the lusts of their own heart ( deceitful heart, desperately wicked) to dishonour their bodies between themselves.

We are to flee youthful lusts, but to follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. ( of faith. Acts 15:9. 1 Timothy 1:5. 1 Timothy 3:9.)

To exhort ( not to strive or accuse.) one another daily, while it is called to day, unless any of us be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. ( our mind hardened through pride. Daniel 5:20.)




Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

2 Corinthians 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.



Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
 
Every heart is deceitful above all things according to Jeremiah 17:9;

However, the regenerated heart has been filled with the Holy Ghost:

Whoever believes in Jesus, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water (John 7:37-39).

It is not that the old deceitfulness is gone;

It is that the deceitfulness is superseded by the goodness of God as we cease to trust in our own hearts (Proverbs 28:26) and begin to rely on the Holy Spirit.
 
Every heart is deceitful above all things according to Jeremiah 17:9;

However, the regenerated heart has been filled with the Holy Ghost:

Whoever believes in Jesus, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water (John 7:37-39).

It is not that the old deceitfulness is gone;

It is that the deceitfulness is superseded by the goodness of God as we cease to trust in our own hearts (Proverbs 28:26) and begin to rely on the Holy Spirit.
I think its more accurate to state God has given us a new heart,
2 Corinthians 3:3
New International Version

3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Ezekiel 11:19
New International Version​

19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Jeremiah 31:33//Hebrews 8:10
New International Version​

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
John 8:
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
 
I think its more accurate to state God has given us a new heart,
2 Corinthians 3:3
New International Version

3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Ezekiel 11:19​

New International Version​

19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Jeremiah 31:33//Hebrews 8:10​

New International Version​

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
John 8:
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
Pro 28:26, He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
 
He who is in us is greater than He who is in the world.
Those who belong to God hear what God says. They are those who fear and love the Lord not those of the world who perish. A new creation.
We who are born again do not trust in our own hearts; rather we rely on the Holy Spirit and trust in Him with all of our heart; leaning not on our own understanding. In all our ways we acknowledge Him; and He is the One who makes our paths straight.
 
We who are born again do not trust in our own hearts; rather we rely on the Holy Spirit and trust in Him with all of our heart; leaning not on our own understanding. In all our ways we acknowledge Him; and He is the One who makes our paths straight.
That outlook came from God. As in God has given us a new heart. We are a new creation.
 
That outlook came from God. As in God has given us a new heart. We are a new creation.
We are like pickled cucumbers.

The "cucumber nature" is still within us...

But because it has been "pickled" it is permeated with the nature of vinegar.

Translation:

The "sin nature" is still in us...

But those who have been regenerated have been permeated with the nature of the Holy Spirit.
 
He who is in us is greater than He who is in the world.
Those who belong to God hear what God says. They are those who fear and love the Lord not those of the world who perish. A new creation.

That outlook came from God. As in God has given us a new heart. We are a new creation.
The above statements are true in promise or theory but the actual translation to reality in the lives of individual believers depends upon a few factors, most of which are in our control. Resist the Holy Spirit's efforts to change the heart and the heart will not be changed. Listen and obey the voice of the Lord and you will hear his voice clearly. But a lot of Christians do not hear his voice and say so plainly. There are believers who fear the Lord and believers who do not or do not very much. So the promises generally have requirements that we must fulfill. We do our small part, He will definitely do His part, no question.
 
Jesus, in Matthew 5:17-20, substantiated the writings of the Old Testament; and therefore by proxy His doctrine includes what is written in Jeremiah 17:9.

If a doctrine is in the Bible, then it is true and Jesus is 100% behind it.

I would say that if an atheist did give a birthday present to someone who was giving them a hard time, that, even though they didn't believe in God, they probably did believe in spiritual principles, such as the idea that if you feed your enemy when he is hungry, you will heap burning coals upon his conscience. Said atheist may have experienced qualms of conscience when someone fed them when they were hungry.

And it is not necessarily a virtue to want to heap coals on the conscience of someone who is your enemy. It just may be that you consider that it is an expedient way to deal with the situation.

Dorothy Mae pointed out from Scripture that there were people who were "good," who were "righteous," without being beneficiaries of the imputed perfect righteousness of Christ under the New Covenant. As she also noted, if she is able to produce even one instance of such a person, our understanding of the statement in Jeremiah 17:9 must be adjusted to conform to this fact. In other words, whatever Jeremiah 17:9 means, it cannot mean that there is never any person who ever does any good or righteous thing.

Genesis 6:8-9 (NASB)
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

Psalm 92:12-14 (NASB)
12 The righteous man will flourish like the palm tree, He will grow like a cedar in Lebanon.
13 Planted in the house of the LORD, They will flourish in the courts of our God.
14 They will still yield fruit in old age; They shall be full of sap and very green,

Isaiah 57:1-2 (NASB)
1 The righteous man perishes, and no man takes it to heart; And devout men are taken away, while no one understands. For the righteous man is taken away from evil,
2 He enters into peace; They rest in their beds, Each one who walked in his upright way.

Matthew 1:19 (NASB)
19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.

Mark 6:20 (NASB)
20 for Herod was afraid of John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. And when he heard him, he was very perplexed; but he used to enjoy listening to him.

Luke 2:25 (NASB)
25 And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him.


Acts 10:22 (NASB)
22 They said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you."


None of the above were born-again believers, by faith clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ. And yet, they were called "righteous" by God in His word. What, then, to make of Jeremiah 17:9? Does it speak falsehood? No. Here's some useful insight into this verse:

Jeremiah 17:9


The train of thought is apparently this: If the man is so blessed (Jeremiah 17:7-8) who trusts in Yahweh, what is the reason why men so generally “make flesh their arm”? And the answer is: Because man’s heart is incapable of seeing things in a straightforward manner, but is full of shrewd guile, and ever seeking to overreach others.

"Desperately wicked" - Rather, mortally sick.

Jeremiah 17:10

The answer to the question, “who can know it?” To himself a man’s heart is an inscrutable mystery: God alone can fathom it. - (
Barnes' Notes on the Old Testament)

The clarification that "desperately wicked" is an inaccurate rendering of the verse is acknowledged in more modern translations of the verse:

Jeremiah 17:9 (NASB)
9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

Jeremiah 17:9 (ESV)
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Jeremiah 17:9 (HCSB)
9 The heart is more deceitful than anything else, and incurable—who can understand it?

Jeremiah 17:9 (YLT)
9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable--who doth know it?


And so on.
 
They were in fact recipients of imputed righteousness; as it is not only NT believers who can avail themselves of this. It should be clear that Abraham was justified by faith (Genesis 15:6).
 
The above statements are true in promise or theory but the actual translation to reality in the lives of individual believers depends upon a few factors, most of which are in our control. Resist the Holy Spirit's efforts to change the heart and the heart will not be changed. Listen and obey the voice of the Lord and you will hear his voice clearly. But a lot of Christians do not hear his voice and say so plainly. There are believers who fear the Lord and believers who do not or do not very much. So the promises generally have requirements that we must fulfill. We do our small part, He will definitely do His part, no question.
"I will give you a new heart.." Those who belong to God hear what God states. All kinds of evil spring from man's hearts. Those that say they know Jesus but do not keep His commands show themselves to be liars and are still slaves to sin. In all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
 
"I will give you a new heart.." Those who belong to God hear what God states. All kinds of evil spring from man's hearts. Those that say they know Jesus but do not keep His commands show themselves to be liars and are still slaves to sin. In all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Well, you can insist that this is reality for all Christians all the time and when a christian does not do the will of God 24/7 to all people, they are just liars. But you will find that calling christians who fail to do right "liars" is not going to be received by others and I would suspect that this theology is not actually what you say and do in regards to other's behaviour. So let me ask, do you do the will of God 24/7 since you belong to Him? Do you hear what God says to you 24/7?
 
Well, you can insist that this is reality for all Christians all the time and when a christian does not do the will of God 24/7 to all people, they are just liars. But you will find that calling christians who fail to do right "liars" is not going to be received by others and I would suspect that this theology is not actually what you say and do in regards to other's behaviour. So let me ask, do you do the will of God 24/7 since you belong to Him? Do you hear what God says to you 24/7?
Just quoting 1John. I live like a believer and its not a struggle. If and when the Lord is pleased to make something known to me I do hear Him. You think God speaks to us 24/7? We can read and know His commandments. You suggested people who harden their hearts and don't hear Him. Or at least that's my take on your words. That's not the same thing to me of someone who is still working towards perfection. I am still working towards perfection. The Lord set that mark.
 
Just quoting 1John. I live like a believer and its not a struggle. If and when the Lord is pleased to make something known to me I do hear Him. You think God speaks to us 24/7? We can read and know His commandments. You suggested people who harden their hearts and don't hear Him. Or at least that's my take on your words. That's not the same thing to me of someone who is still working towards perfection. I am still working towards perfection. The Lord set that mark.
OK, well, I wish you well. If you are satisfied with this theology then it is best to just leave it at that. There are those who look around and wonder why they and others in their christianity community do not live up to the New Testament. To them I have an answer. But if one does not see any discrepancy there, then we have no beef. I also know more christians who admit they do not know the voice of God than those who regularly have the Lord speak to them. I am a scientist and I look at how real life is not how it ought to be.

All the best to you. Glad you are happy with your walk with Him.
 
Pro 28:26, He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
Just by faith, how does anyone walk wisely by not having no part dark, to have only light guiding.

How can anyone not trust in their own heart, and not believe the stony heart must be removed/new covenant of Christ.



Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Luke 11:36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.
 
Back
Top