Jeremiah 17:9.

[gordon777]

We are like pickled cucumbers.

The "cucumber nature" is still within us...

But because it has been "pickled" it is permeated with the nature of vinegar.

Translation:

The "sin nature" is still in us...

But those who have been regenerated have been permeated with the nature of the Holy Spirit.

Nothing can remain of what was previous. ( anything that was pickled, remains pickled, what is new, is unpickled. what has a sin nature, sins and is wicked still, what has a new nature, ceases to sin.)


Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Luke 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[gordon777]

There are believers who fear the Lord and believers who do not or do not very much. So the promises generally have requirements that we must fulfill. We do our small part, He will definitely do His part, no question.

The new covenant also is God placing His fear into our hearts, as the fear of the Lord also is the Spirit of the Lord.


Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[gordon777]

Jeremiah 17:10

The answer to the question, “who can know it?” To himself a man’s heart is an inscrutable mystery: God alone can fathom it. - (Barnes' Notes on the Old Testament)

The clarification that "desperately wicked" is an inaccurate rendering of the verse is acknowledged in more modern translations of the verse:

Jeremiah 17:9 (NASB)
9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

Jeremiah 17:9 (ESV)
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Jeremiah 17:9 (HCSB)
9 The heart is more deceitful than anything else, and incurable—who can understand it?

Jeremiah 17:9 (YLT)
9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable--who doth know it?

The reason that God flooded the old world, because the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. That gives a good assessment of what a heart that is desperately wicked ( or sick) amounts to, which is total destruction.


Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.




God knows the hearts, and revealed to us of the judgement on the whole world, that the heart was no good in any man.

We know this is very relevant, because they are all made ensamples, along with the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the delivering of just lot, who was disturbed by the filthy conversation of the wicked. ( the sick) We know who does the same as those examples of those wicked acts, and the thoughts of the heart that is only evil continually ( the heart that is wicked above all, and desperately wicked/sick) cannot escape the judgement of God. Romans 2:3.


2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

 

[gordon777]

They were in fact recipients of imputed righteousness; as it is not only NT believers who can avail themselves of this. It should be clear that Abraham was justified by faith (Genesis 15:6).

The scripture makes it clear the new testament has what the old testament, does not:


Hebrews 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The new covenant also is God placing His fear into our hearts, as the fear of the Lord also is the Spirit of the Lord.


Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

How does one respond to those who look at verses that are quite complimentary and decides that these verses personally describe them and anyone else who reads the verse and likewise decides that is describing them by faith in taking that verse personally. I guess this is a lot easier than looking at how one really behaves towards others, seeing the differences between the promise and the reality and doing something about it. Just whitewash the self with scripture and look in the mirror with that covering the reality. Works until a real strong storm of life comes that washes away all the whitewash....like the house the man built on the sand...the man who read the words, believed the words but never did any of the words.

The fear of the Lord or the lack of the fear of the Lord is pretty easy to see in others. Claiming you have it by faith works about as good as claiming you are patient by faith or kind by faith or at peace by faith or any of the other FRUITS of the Holy Spirit working in a man's character reflected in real life choices by faith. It is easy to just say you ARE those things by assumption instead of working to be those things.

 

[gordon777]

Well, you can insist that this is reality for all Christians all the time and when a christian does not do the will of God 24/7 to all people, they are just liars. But you will find that calling christians who fail to do right "liars" is not going to be received by others and I would suspect that this theology is not actually what you say and do in regards to other's behaviour. So let me ask, do you do the will of God 24/7 since you belong to Him? Do you hear what God says to you 24/7?

A Christian has to believe in the scripture, of one time entirely dong the will of themselves, to doing the will of God.


1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

 

[Dorothy Mae]

A Christian has to believe in the scripture, of one time entirely dong the will of themselves, to doing the will of God.

Actually Jesus said that a christian has to DO his teaching. The man who merely believes and does not DO is like the man who builds his house on sand. The storms of life come and the faith is entirely destroyed. Why? Because he did not believe the scriptures? No, he believed with all his heart and taught others they that need to believe (give mental agreement) but did not DO any of what the scriptures taught (except the easy and pleasant stuff.)

 

[gordon777]

The fear of the Lord or the lack of the fear of the Lord is pretty easy to see in others. Claiming you have it by faith works about as good as claiming you are patient by faith or kind by faith or at peace by faith or any of the other FRUITS of the Holy Spirit working in a man's character reflected in real life choices by faith. It is easy to just say you ARE those things by assumption instead of working to be those things.

Did the Spirit of the Lord, come onto the Messiah by working for it, or this is by faith.

That is why it also is the Spirit of faith.


Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

Isaiah 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

 

[gordon777]

Actually Jesus said that a christian has to DO his teaching.

Doing the will of God is hearing His sayings and doing them.


Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

 

[gordon777]

So the latest summary for everybody of the heart desperately wicked, is that the wicked are desperate, to have something to say, and have nothing to say, as nothing can be added or taken from the word of the Lord.

Also the love of God is in deed and in truth, not in word or tongue ( text now, they like for years on these forums, and that is how we are shown the deceitful heart at work on forums.)

 

[justbyfaith]

Just by faith, how does anyone walk wisely by not having no part dark, to have only light guiding.

How can anyone not trust in their own heart, and not believe the stony heart must be removed/new covenant of Christ.



Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Luke 11:36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

We receive a new heart via the gratitude that comes when we realize that we have been forgiven of great wickedness and that we are still undeserving of the grace that has been given to us.

The scripture makes it clear the new testament has what the old testament, does not:


Hebrews 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

It should be clear that while Abraham did not receive the promise of such things as the promised land which was promised to him, that he was in fact justified by faith (Genesis 15:6) just as is the case with NT saints.

Gen 15:6, And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

 

[justbyfaith]

How does one respond to those who look at verses that are quite complimentary and decides that these verses personally describe them and anyone else who reads the verse and likewise decides that is describing them by faith in taking that verse personally. I guess this is a lot easier than looking at how one really behaves towards others, seeing the differences between the promise and the reality and doing something about it. Just whitewash the self with scripture and look in the mirror with that covering the reality. Works until a real strong storm of life comes that washes away all the whitewash....like the house the man built on the sand...the man who read the words, believed the words but never did any of the words.

The fear of the Lord or the lack of the fear of the Lord is pretty easy to see in others. Claiming you have it by faith works about as good as claiming you are patient by faith or kind by faith or at peace by faith or any of the other FRUITS of the Holy Spirit working in a man's character reflected in real life choices by faith. It is easy to just say you ARE those things by assumption instead of working to be those things.

It should be clear that those things can never come about through self-effort or works.

That being the case, faith is the only venue left by which a man might obtain such virtues.

I believe with all of my heart that we are not only justified by faith; but we are sanctified by faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by grace through faith.

Sanctification is an aspect of salvation.

 

[Randy]

I do (Psalms 10:4 (kjv)).

Psa 10:4, The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

Yes, I would think the Godless do not any have a relationship with Christ.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Did the Spirit of the Lord, come onto the Messiah by working for it, or this is by faith.

Same as for anyone, neither. You won’t find it as a gift or fruit in scripture.

That is why it also is the Spirit of faith.

Or assumption/presumption.

Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

Doesn’t say how it got there. He didn’t “claim it” for himself.

Isaiah 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

Understanding comes AFTER one has the fear of the Lord to sufficient degree.

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

And? Where’s the fear of God in that verse?

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Ditto…so? Those who tell untruths day the same of themselves.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Doing the will of God is hearing His sayings and doing them.


Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

That is true and is my point exactly.

 

[Randy]

OK, well, I wish you well. If you are satisfied with this theology then it is best to just leave it at that. There are those who look around and wonder why they and others in their christianity community do not live up to the New Testament. To them I have an answer. But if one does not see any discrepancy there, then we have no beef. I also know more christians who admit they do not know the voice of God than those who regularly have the Lord speak to them. I am a scientist and I look at how real life is not how it ought to be.

All the best to you. Glad you are happy with your walk with Him.

Hearing what God says in usually in the context of one who believes in Jesus as in those who belong to God.
Not hearing what God says is usually in the context of one who doesn't believe in Jesus because they do not belong to God.

Jesus testified vocally to the Father. "They were yours you gave them to me"

John 8:47
Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

John 17:16
I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

Most scientists have a difficult time with knowing God
John 14:7
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

"Faith" must be a key then.
Hebrews 11
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was NOT made out of what was visible.

But we do have a witness the world doesn't know.
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children

I have been a believer my whole life and when Jesus communicates to me Spirit to spirit and in my mind I hear the words in "English" and its in answer to things asked of Him (prayer) That's not 24/7 even though the gift of God is forever. Christ in us.

This is a sign of true salvation a change of heart.
Luke 19
When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”

8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Those who harden their hearts and refuse Gods commands doesn't fit what should been seen in those who "Love" and "belong" to God.

 

[Tenchi]

They were in fact recipients of imputed righteousness; as it is not only NT believers who can avail themselves of this. It should be clear that Abraham was justified by faith (Genesis 15:6).

This is rather beside my point, which is that Jeremiah 17:9 ought to be tempered - qualified and clarified - by the rest of Scripture. And when it is, the force of its declaration is...diffused.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hearing what God says in usually in the context of one who believes in Jesus as in those who belong to God.
Not hearing what God says is usually in the context of one who doesn't believe in Jesus because they do not belong to God.

All true but just ask people who are believers if they know God’s voice and what did He say.

Jesus testified vocally to the Father. "They were yours you gave them to me"

John 8:47
Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

I know plenty of dedicated christian’s who can’t tell you what God said to them last week. They still belong to Him. They’re just untrained in discerning his voice. I wouldn’t say they’re therefore unbelievers. Hearing God’s voice isn’t taught.

John 17:16
I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

Most scientists have a difficult time with knowing God

There are a whole host of famous scientists who knew God. Still are.

John 14:7
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Being in science isn’t the same as being in the world.

"Faith" must be a key then.
Hebrews 11
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was NOT made out of what was visible.

But we do have a witness the world doesn't know.
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children

I have been a believer my whole life and when Jesus communicates to me Spirit to spirit and in my mind I hear the words in "English" and its in answer to things asked of Him (prayer) That's not 24/7 even though the gift of God is forever. Christ in us.

Sounds good. What did He say recently? Btw, he does speak English, you know. It isn’t a matter of you hearing what He didn’t speak.

This is a sign of true salvation a change of heart.
Luke 19
When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”

8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Absolutely true!!

Those who harden their hearts and refuse Gods commands doesn't fit what should been seen in those who "Love" and "belong" to God.

Time means the opportunity to change one’s mind. Jesus spoke of those who fall away, turn back, etc. They had tasted of his goodness but for different reasons hardened their hearts. It happens.

 

[Tenchi]

The reason that God flooded the old world, because the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. That gives a good assessment of what a heart that is desperately wicked ( or sick) amounts to, which is total destruction.


Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Uh huh. And yet, God's word records:

Job 2:3 (NASB)
3 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."

Genesis 6:8-9 (NASB)
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

Acts 13:22 (NASB)
22 "After He had removed him, He raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He also testified and said, 'I HAVE FOUND DAVID the son of Jesse, A MAN AFTER MY HEART, who will do all My will.'

And so on. The heart of Man is sin-sick, yes, but this doesn't mean that all human beings are as wicked as they could be, totally depraved in all respects, as some want to assert from verses like Jeremiah 17:9. Does this mean that there are some people who don't require the atoning sacrifice of Christ for their sin? No, of course not. "For all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory." (Romans 3:23) But the corollary to this is NOT that every person is, therefore, a seething cauldron of vile wickedness, desperate to enact evil at every turn.

 

[justbyfaith]

This is rather beside my point, which is that Jeremiah 17:9 ought to be tempered - qualified and clarified - by the rest of Scripture. And when it is, the force of its declaration is...diffused.

No scripture is "diffused" by its context.

Every verse in holy scripture stands on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth.

Context, whether topical or immediate, will never nullify the plain meaning of a verse.

This is a first rule of hermeneutics; based on the concept that the Bible doesn't contradict itself.