Jeremiah 17:9.

[Dorothy Mae]

If the debate goes on, ( which those who have exercised their hearts with covetous practises clearly will do.) it has answered why hearts are wicked and deceitful above all, the heart that never receives correction. ( Sensual, constantly in strife, showing no understanding in those ways, by not having not the Spirit, which is the heart is purified by faith,.)

You probably do not realize it, but you have just killed your thread. "If the debate goes on, ....those WHO HAVE..covetous practices will do" means anyone who continues this debate (who disagrees with you obviously) is evil and has an evil heart. Hummmm...who in the world is going to continue a debate when by so doing, they are admitting that their heart (not yours, of course if YOU continue) is evil? I mean, if that isn't the fastest way to kill a thread I have ever read.....essentially "anyone who answers this post is evil" is a sure way to get no answer.

This is NOT AN ANSWER, by the way. It is an evaluation and putting into words what you have just done for those who know something is wrong with that assumption but lack the skills to put it into words.

 

[justbyfaith]

So, does it mean the heart is deceitful and wicked above all, is to believe those in debate/strife/ those who show they exercise their hearts with covetous practises, or this means that what is told above, is fulfilled in all the heretical threads that have appeared on forums in this end of the world., and it cannot be more apparent, this is fulfilled in every word and every lack of acceptance to the peaceful learning that is from above, which is easy to be entreated. ( James 3:17.)

I don't know about you; but it is my prayer that sound doctrine will prevail at every level in forums like these.

Yes, there are people who promote heresy; however we can rely upon the Lord to discredit heresy and cause the truth on any matter to come forth.

Otherwise it would be better to just not frequent such forums; since the diet you would be receiving would be a steady intake of false doctrine.

 

[Tenchi]

Perfection is God's requirement for anyone to be considered morally good.

No, perfection is God's standard for acceptance of you and I into His family and kingdom. Perfection is the standard for our redemption. But this standard is not the standard distinguishing a morally-good act from a morally-bad one. A man who has gotten drunk on Saturday night may rescue a child from a burning building on Sunday morning. Does his drunkenness make his saving of the child an immoral act? If so, what obligation has he to do anything moral? If, apart from Christ's perfect righteousness, everything a man does is not morally good, that is, it is all evil, why should he make any distinction between right and wrong, good and evil? Under this bizarre thinking, rescuing a woman from a rapist is just as not-good, just as immoral - which is to say, evil - an act as participating in her rape! This is nuts, obviously. But making perfection the standard of moral good requires just this sort of irrational and unbiblical view.

In the instances I already offered to you, God acknowledged the moral goodness of a man's actions, though that man was far from morally-perfect. Neither Noah, nor Job, nor David, nor Joseph, nor Cornelius, nor many other righteous men in the Bible were morally-perfect, but this did not mean they were unable to do moral things sufficient to be described by God as "righteous," "holy," "devout," "upright," "God-fearing," "holds fast his integrity," and "after my own heart."

Again, though God requires moral perfection in order for you and I to be reconciled to Himself and adopted into His family, He does not, in the life of the unsaved person, dissolve all moral distinctions, declaring everything they do, whether moral or immoral, exactly the same.

And the reality is, that all three examples that I have given are truly examples of the authors of the Bible taking other scripture out of its original context.

Well, except for your say-so, you've offered nothing to establish that this is the case. I've pointed out why what you're saying here is faulty but you've simply ignored my remarks and are parroting your initial assertions as though repetition of them is an argument for them.

You seem to think that you can finagle your way into making a case otherwise; but it is clear to me that my premise, that every verse in holy scripture stands on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth, has every basis in reality. The reality is that the scripture does not contradict itself; and therefore the context of a scripture is never going to nullify the plain meaning of that scripture.

I've not "finagled" my way to anything, but have simply pointed out what is plainly-evident in the verses you cited. It is ironic that your handling of Scripture actually pits it against itself, though you seem to think it doesn't; and you've set up a system of thinking about Scripture that encourages taking a verse out of its context, which is the surest and fastest way to a profound misunderstanding of what the verse really means.

2 Corinthians 9:6, if taken in its immediate context, actually purports the concept of the word of faith / health-wealth / prosperity teachers that we financially reap what we sow financially.

No, it doesn't.

2 Corinthians 9:5-11 (NASB)
5 So I thought it necessary to urge the brethren that they would go on ahead to you and arrange beforehand your previously promised bountiful gift, so that the same would be ready as a bountiful gift and not affected by covetousness.
6 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.
7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
9 as it is written, "HE SCATTERED ABROAD, HE GAVE TO THE POOR, HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ENDURES FOREVER."
10 Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;
11 you will be enriched in everything for all liberality, which through us is producing thanksgiving to God.

What Paul is explaining in this passage is that the "promised bountiful gift" the believers at Corinth had committed to give in support of Paul was to be given "unaffected by covetousness" (vs. 5) which, as he explained, meant "not grudgingly or under compulsion," but "cheerfully" (vs. 7). This was to be the case because all that the believers at Corinth gave was supplied to them from God who was "able to make all grace abound" so that they "may have abundance for every good deed" (vs.8). God "supplies seed to the sower and bread for food" and, Paul explained, would "enrich in everything" the believers at Corinth so that they could continue to be liberal in their giving (vs.11).

There is no Health-Wealth-Prosperity-Gospel doctrine delineated here but only the teaching that God provides materially for us so that we might be generous in our giving to others. God's eyes are on those He might bless through us, not on our health or wealth. As Paul's own story reveals, in service to God, believers may often be in material need.

Philippians 4:11-13 (NASB)
11 ...I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.
12 I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need.
13 I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

2 Corinthians 11:23-28 (NASB)
23 Are they servants of Christ?—I speak as if insane—I more so; in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death.
24 Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep.
26 I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren;
27 I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure.
28 Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches.

So, if you do not apply Luke 8:11 so that it is in reference to the word of the Lord rather than financial sowing and reaping, I'm afraid that you are stuck with the interpretation of the word of faith / health-wealth / prosperity teachers.

"You do err, not knowing the Scriptures." See above.

It appears that you are doubling down on your concept that the scripture can contradict itself and that therefore context is all-important.

Deflection. And a tacit admission that you have nothing to offer in rebuttal of the import of prophetic speech in the verses you cited.

John clearly takes Zechariah's words out of context, applying them to the crucifixion when originally they apply to the 2nd coming.

But, as I showed you, his words in the verse don't all apply to Jerusalem's defense by God but clearly refer prophetically to Christ - which, again, is why John referred to them as prophetic.

John 19:36-37 (NASB)
36 For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN."
37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

Zechariah 12:10 (NASB)
10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

See? John only mentions those words in Zechariah 12:10 that speak prophetically of Christ. How this becomes an out-of-context use of the prophetic remark about Christ, I don't know. Even in context, what Zechariah had said about Christ referred to him only, not to Jerusalem. How, then, does John abuse Zechariah's words in an out-of-context way?
Anyway, I think we're done talking about this. At least, I am.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, perfection is God's standard for acceptance of you and I into His family and kingdom. Perfection is the standard for our redemption. But this standard is not the standard distinguishing a morally-good act from a morally-bad one. A man who has gotten drunk on Saturday night may rescue a child from a burning building on Sunday morning. Does his drunkenness make his saving of the child an immoral act? If so, what obligation has he to do anything moral?

Someone who is morally inept cannot do what is morally good; a person who is drunk in the night will not rush into a burning building to save someone unless there is some other reason than moral goodness; i.e. because it is his job.

Mat 7:16, Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17, Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

[justbyfaith]

If, apart from Christ's perfect righteousness, everything a man does is not morally good, that is, it is all evil, why should he make any distinction between right and wrong, good and evil? Under this bizarre thinking, rescuing a woman from a rapist is just as not-good, just as immoral - which is to say, evil - an act as participating in her rape! This is nuts, obviously. But making perfection the standard of moral good requires just this sort of irrational and unbiblical view.

Someone who is not morally good will not rescue a woman from being raped unless there is some reason for them to do so other than moral goodness, i.e. they are a police officer and it is their job.

 

[justbyfaith]

In the instances I already offered to you, God acknowledged the moral goodness of a man's actions, though that man was far from morally-perfect. Neither Noah, nor Job, nor David, nor Joseph, nor Cornelius, nor many other righteous men in the Bible were morally-perfect, but this did not mean they were unable to do moral things sufficient to be described by God as "righteous," "holy," "devout," "upright," "God-fearing," "holds fast his integrity," and "after my own heart."

All of these men were considered to be righteous by God, not because of their performance; but because they had faith.

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, though God requires moral perfection in order for you and I to be reconciled to Himself and adopted into His family, He does not, in the life of the unsaved person, dissolve all moral distinctions, declaring everything they do, whether moral or immoral, exactly the same.

A corrupt tree cannot bear good fruit (Matthew 7:17-18).

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, except for your say-so, you've offered nothing to establish that this is the case. I've pointed out why what you're saying here is faulty but you've simply ignored my remarks and are parroting your initial assertions as though repetition of them is an argument for them.

It should be clear that every verse of holy scripture stands on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth. Context never nullifies the plain meaning of a verse. This is a first rule of hermentutics; based on the concept that the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

I've not "finagled" my way to anything, but have simply pointed out what is plainly-evident in the verses you cited. It is ironic that your handling of Scripture actually pits it against itself, though you seem to think it doesn't; and you've set up a system of thinking about Scripture that encourages taking a verse out of its context, which is the surest and fastest way to a profound misunderstanding of what the verse really means.

It is the often cry of the unbeliever that such and such a verse has been taken out of context. In all reality that unbeliever does not want to accept the reality of what that verse is saying to them; so they search the context for something that will nullify what the Holy Spirit is saying to them by that verse. They are hardening their heart against the Holy Spirit. And usually, they can find something in the context that comforts them so that they don't have to accept the verse in question at face value.

But what they should do is compare the contrasting verses rather than pitting them against each other.

There is no Health-Wealth-Prosperity-Gospel doctrine delineated here

In 2 Corinthians 9:6, the context has to do with finances and sowing and reaping is the subject. "sow your seed of $100 and you will receive a return of $1,000." If you sow bountifully, you will reap bountifully.

How this becomes an out-of-context use of the prophetic remark about Christ, I don't know.

Because in Zechariah 12:10, it is referring to the 2nd coming; while in John 19:37 the context is the crucifixion.

 

[gordon777]

Who has a non deceitful heart might have honour to leave off contention and strife:


Proverbs 20:3 It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

 

[gordon777]

You probably do not realize it, but you have just killed your thread. "If the debate goes on, ....those WHO HAVE..covetous practices will do" means anyone who continues this debate (who disagrees with you obviously) is evil and has an evil heart. Hummmm...who in the world is going to continue a debate when by so doing, they are admitting that their heart (not yours, of course if YOU continue) is evil? I mean, if that isn't the fastest way to kill a thread I have ever read.....essentially "anyone who answers this post is evil" is a sure way to get no answer.

This is NOT AN ANSWER, by the way. It is an evaluation and putting into words what you have just done for those who know something is wrong with that assumption but lack the skills to put it into words.

Being swift to hear instead of to speak, is the wisdom God wants for us all. ( for peace)



Proverbs 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Proverbs 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Proverbs 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.

Proverbs 15:10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.

Proverbs 13:1 A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.

Proverbs 15:12 A scorner loveth not one that reproveth him: neither will he go unto the wise.




Job 13:5 O that ye would altogether hold your peace! and it should be your wisdom.

James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.



Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

1 Peter 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

 

[gordon777]

I don't know about you; but it is my prayer that sound doctrine will prevail at every level in forums like these.

Yes, there are people who promote heresy; however we can rely upon the Lord to discredit heresy and cause the truth on any matter to come forth.

Otherwise it would be better to just not frequent such forums; since the diet you would be receiving would be a steady intake of false doctrine.

When the doctrine according to godliness is not brought, we do as shown:


1 Timothy 6:3 IF ANY MAN teach otherwise, and CONSENT NOT TO WHOLESOME WORDS, even the words OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 HE IS PROUD, but DOTING ABOUT QUESTIONS AND STRIFES OF WORDS, whereof cometh ENVY, STRIFE, RAILING, EVIL SURMISINGS,
5 PERVERSE DISPUTIUNGS OF MEN OF CORRUPT MINDS, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: FROM SUCH WITHDRAW THYSELF.

 

[gordon777]

The only way to show we believe in Jesus Christ, is to do the very opposite to those who will never end the strife/debate.

The last thread I made today, can show how we love our enemies, not fight them endlessly, ( ending the strife/debate of forums.) and deeds are greater than words.

 

[justbyfaith]

When the doctrine according to godliness is not brought, we do as shown:


1 Timothy 6:3 IF ANY MAN teach otherwise, and CONSENT NOT TO WHOLESOME WORDS, even the words OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 HE IS PROUD, but DOTING ABOUT QUESTIONS AND STRIFES OF WORDS, whereof cometh ENVY, STRIFE, RAILING, EVIL SURMISINGS,
5 PERVERSE DISPUTIUNGS OF MEN OF CORRUPT MINDS, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: FROM SUCH WITHDRAW THYSELF.

It may not be expedient to withdraw one's self from a debate concerning doctrine if you are contending for the faith.

Jde 1:3, Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jde 1:4, For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, <even> our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Tenchi]

Someone who is morally inept cannot do what is morally good; a person who is drunk in the night will not rush into a burning building to save someone unless there is some other reason than moral goodness; i.e. because it is his job.

Mat 7:16, Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17, Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

This is both patently false in experience and contradicted by God's word. But it is worth responding to since many Christians mistake, as you have, what Jesus is saying in the passage in Matthew 7 that you cited.

Romans 2:13-15 (NASB)
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Here, Paul acknowledged that there are Gentiles - that is, non-Jewish unbelievers - who "do instinctively the things of the Law" because they have "the work of the Law written in their hearts" to which their "consciences bear witness." There can be, however, no such Gentile unbelievers, according to you, justbyfaith. Who's right? You or Paul? I'm going to go with Paul, an Apostle of Jesus Christ and the second greatest contributor to the New Testament, on this one.

I know many non-believers who are in constant rebellion toward God in their unbelief, but who do moral things on a regular basis, volunteering at food banks, caring for the sick and lonely at Senior Citizen homes, loving their families sacrificially, showing grace and generosity toward their neighbors, and so on. They totally defy your assertion that the "morally inept" cannot be moral (except if they're paid to be).

Together, the declaration of God's word and the testimony of my personal experience quite dissolve your idea about the "morally inept."

So, what did Jesus actually mean in the verses from Matthew 7 that you quoted? Well, you carefully redacted what Jesus said. Here are his thoughts in their proper fullness:

Matthew 7:15-20 (NASB)
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

In context, Jesus was speaking particularly of false prophets, not of any and every non-believer. Not only are they bearers of "bad fruit," but are "ravening wolves in sheep's clothing" (vs. 15) These false prophets were purposefully intending to deceive the "sheep," appearing to be like the "sheep" but, in truth, were predators who were going to make a meal of them. Jesus said in the passage above that these deceiving "wolves," these "false prophets," would give themselves away by neglecting to "do the will of the Father who is in heaven." (7:21)

Where does the "will of the Father" begin? What is the First and Great Commandment of God?

Matthew 22:36-38 (NASB)
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.

Keeping in mind where God's will begins for those who claim to be His is extremely important because the false prophets of Matthew 7 (and many self-proclaimed Christians) will, on Judgment Day, point to a number of good things they did in Christ's name:

Matthew 7:21-23 (NASB)
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Prophesying in Christ's name is good; casting out demons in Christ's name is good; performing miracles in Christ's name is good. Why, then, does Jesus say to these doers of good things, of moral things, "depart from me I never knew you"? Well, if one is going to make a case for membership in God's kingdom, why would one not begin with one's obedience to God's First and Great Commandment? It's the First and Great Commandment of God! But those making their case to Christ for entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven - the deceitful false prophets who are "ravening wolves" - never mention keeping this commandment. How could they, since they were predators upon the "flock of God," loving themselves, not the Father in heaven.

Here, then, the false prophets are revealed: Though they had done good things - and done them in Christ's name, no less - they could not claim to have done the will of the Father in heaven because they had, in truth, no love of the Father in them. Above and before all else, the "good fruit" of a genuinely born-again child of God is a deep, over-riding heart's desire for Him, a love, for God. Out of this desire, this love, all obedience to Him is supposed to flow, as Paul explained to the believers at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (NASB)
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

In light of all this, it seems very evident to me that you've misused Christ's words in Matthew 7:16-18, ignoring their immediate, clarifying context, and the larger context of Scripture to which they directly attach and producing, as a result, a deeply mistaken theory of morality.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Being swift to hear instead of to speak, is the wisdom God wants for us all. ( for peace)



Proverbs 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Proverbs 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Proverbs 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.

Proverbs 15:10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.

Proverbs 13:1 A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.

Proverbs 15:12 A scorner loveth not one that reproveth him: neither will he go unto the wise.




Job 13:5 O that ye would altogether hold your peace! and it should be your wisdom.

James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.



Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

1 Peter 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

Said by a poster who says a lot and swiftly.

 

[justbyfaith]

This is both patently false in experience and contradicted by God's word. But it is worth responding to since many Christians mistake, as you have, what Jesus is saying in the passage in Matthew 7 that you cited.

Romans 2:13-15 (NASB)
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Here, Paul acknowledged that there are Gentiles - that is, non-Jewish unbelievers - who "do instinctively the things of the Law" because they have "the work of the Law written in their hearts" to which their "consciences bear witness." There can be, however, no such Gentile unbelievers, according to you, @justbyfaith. Who's right? You or Paul? I'm going to go with Paul, an Apostle of Jesus Christ and the second greatest contributor to the New Testament, on this one.

Romans 2:13-15 is speaking of Gentile believers who were never given the law but who nevertheless have come to faith in Christ; such as the believers in Galatia.

 

[justbyfaith]

I know many non-believers who are in constant rebellion toward God in their unbelief, but who do moral things on a regular basis, volunteering at food banks, caring for the sick and lonely at Senior Citizen homes, loving their families sacrificially, showing grace and generosity toward their neighbors, and so on. They totally defy your assertion that the "morally inept" cannot be moral (except if they're paid to be).

All of it would be tainted by sin; for a corrupt tree cannot bear good fruit.

It may look like good fruit on the outside; but it would be rotten on the inside.

So, what did Jesus actually mean in the verses from Matthew 7 that you quoted? Well, you carefully redacted what Jesus said. Here are his thoughts in their proper fullness:

Matthew 7:15-20 (NASB)
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

In context, Jesus was speaking particularly of false prophets, not of any and every non-believer. Not only are they bearers of "bad fruit," but are "ravening wolves in sheep's clothing" (vs. 15) These false prophets were purposefully intending to deceive the "sheep," appearing to be like the "sheep" but, in truth, were predators who were going to make a meal of them. Jesus said in the passage above that these deceiving "wolves," these "false prophets," would give themselves away by neglecting to "do the will of the Father who is in heaven." (7:21)

In context, the thing about false prophets speaks of the fact that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

I would say, also, that this principle stands on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth.

Where does the "will of the Father" begin? What is the First and Great Commandment of God?

Matthew 22:36-38 (NASB)
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.

Keeping in mind where God's will begins for those who claim to be His is extremely important because the false prophets of Matthew 7 (and many self-proclaimed Christians) will, on Judgment Day, point to a number of good things they did in Christ's name:

Matthew 7:21-23 (NASB)
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Prophesying in Christ's name is good; casting out demons in Christ's name is good; performing miracles in Christ's name is good. Why, then, does Jesus say to these doers of good things, of moral things, "depart from me I never knew you"? Well, if one is going to make a case for membership in God's kingdom, why would one not begin with one's obedience to God's First and Great Commandment? It's the First and Great Commandment of God! But those making their case to Christ for entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven - the deceitful false prophets who are "ravening wolves" - never mention keeping this commandment. How could they, since they were predators upon the "flock of God," loving themselves, not the Father in heaven.

Here, then, the false prophets are revealed: Though they had done good things - and done them in Christ's name, no less - they could not claim to have done the will of the Father in heaven because they had, in truth, no love of the Father in them. Above and before all else, the "good fruit" of a genuinely born-again child of God is a deep, over-riding heart's desire for Him, a love, for God. Out of this desire, this love, all obedience to Him is supposed to flow, as Paul explained to the believers at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (NASB)
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

In light of all this, it seems very evident to me that you've misused Christ's words in Matthew 7:16-18, ignoring their immediate, clarifying context, and the larger context of Scripture to which they directly attach and producing, as a result, a deeply mistaken theory of morality.

Christ says to them, I never knew you, because they were practicing iniquity on the side of their ministries and therefore what they were doing in their ministries was tainted by sin.

And yes, it would appear that the reason for this might be that they did not have the love of the Father in them.

However, Jesus' statement is that He tells them to depart from them because they are "ye that work iniquity"...

Therefore it stand that the reason why their "good deeds" were not recognized was because sin tainted their good deeds so that they were, in effect, rotten fruit.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The only way to show we believe in Jesus Christ, is to do the very opposite to those who will never end the strife/debate.

The last thread I made today, can show how we love our enemies, not fight them endlessly, ( ending the strife/debate of forums.) and deeds are greater than words.

Said by the poster who fights endlessly.

 

[Tenchi]

Romans 2:13-15 is speaking of Gentile believers who were never given the law but who nevertheless have come to faith in Christ; such as the believers in Galatia.

Nope. Actually read what Paul wrote justbyfaith:

Romans 2:14-15 (NASB)
14 For when Gentiles (not fellow believers, or brethren) who do not have the Law (are not aware of it, which would be impossible for anyone who had heard and responded positively to the Gospel) do instinctively the things of the Law (this indicates obedience to God's Moral Law that is merely reflexive, having nothing to do with a knowledge, or love, of Christ), these not having the Law, are a law to themselves (how are born-again believers ever a "law to themselves"?),
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts (aka - the common Moral Sense possessed of every human person), their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them (no mention of the conviction of the indwelling Spirit, only the action of human conscience and reason),

In light of what Paul wrote above, taken simply and straightforwardly, there is no textual support for the assertion that Paul was referring to Gentile believers in this passage but good reason in the text to think he was referring to non-believers.

 

[Tenchi]

All of it would be tainted by sin; for a corrupt tree cannot bear good fruit.

It may look like good fruit on the outside; but it would be rotten on the inside.

This would not be true of a moral act itself, only, possibly, of the motives of the actor of it. It is obvious that saving a child from a burning building, regardless of motive, is a good, a moral, act. Would you call the act of saving the child itself an immoral, that is, evil, deed? Surely not; that would be moral insanity.

In any case, the "good fruit" of the false prophet is, of course, fundamentally corrupt. It was only about their "fruit" Jesus was remarking.

In context, the thing about false prophets speaks of the fact that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

??? Are you now agreeing with me? It seems so...

I would say, also, that this principle stands on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth.

I have no idea what this means, exactly, in the context of Christ's words about false prophets.

Christ says to them, I never knew you, because they were practicing iniquity on the side of their ministries and therefore what they were doing in their ministries was tainted by sin.

Where does he say this? Jesus began the section about the casting out of the false prophets by explaining that only those who did the will of the Father in heaven would enter His kingdom. (Matthew 7:21) Jesus said not a word about the false prophets "practicing iniquity on the side," or "their ministries were tainted by sin." Instead, he described the claims the false prophets had made to having done good deeds, emphasizing their morality, not their iniquity.

And yes, it would appear that the reason for this might be that they did not have the love of the Father in them.

Might be? What is the Second Commandment that is "like unto the First" (see: Matthew 22:36-39)? How would a "ravening wolf" among God's "sheep" who was so in direct, overt violation of the Second Commandment ever legitimately claim they were obeying the First and Great Commandment?

However, Jesus' statement is that He tells them to depart from them because they are "ye that work iniquity"...

Which was their complete disobedience to the First and Great Commandment (and the Second) of God! We don't have to speculate about what other "iniquity" of which they might have been guilty; we can know with certainty that, despite all their doing of good deeds in Christ's name, they were in violation of the two most important commandments of God, which is, I think, the true "bad fruit" of the false prophet that exposes them as such.

Therefore it stand that the reason why their "good deeds" were not recognized was because sin tainted their good deeds so that they were, in effect, rotten fruit.

Jesus never said the false prophets were themselves "rotten fruit," only their deeds. Instead, he described them as "ravening wolves" and "false." The "badness" of their "fruit" was in the fact that it was all divorced from a love for God. As I explained, freeing people from demonic possession - and in Christ's name, what's more - was clearly a moral act; performing miracles (likely healing) in Christ's name was a good thing to do; prophesying (aka preaching) in Christ's name was also not immoral. But there was no love for God in any of this stuff and certainly no godly love for His "sheep," upon whom the false prophets were preying. This was the "taint" upon all they did, not some particular, lesser sin, like adultery, or gluttony, or pride (though they might have been guilty of such things). Such sins are always mere symptoms of a heart that doesn't truly desire (that is, love) God deeply.