Jesus came back.. and Destroyed Jerusalem

[parousia70]

Had sinful man had access to the tree of life sin would have continued forever.

2 things here.

1) unless you are a universalist or annhilationist, you also profess that the damned shall suffer IN THIER SIN forever.
Your view does nothing to solve supposed the problem of the eternal existance of sin.

B) Does one taste from of the tree of life provide eternal life or does one need to constantly take from it's fruit in order to live forever?

Christ said one drink of the living waters and we shall never thirst again.... yet you claim those of us who have had our drink must drink again from the "superior" waters yet to be found in the new H&E...

 

[RND]

Had sinful man had access to the tree of life sin would have continued forever.

2 things here.

1) unless you are a universalist or annhilationist, you also profess that the damned shall suffer IN THIER SIN forever.
Your view does nothing to solve supposed the problem of the eternal existance of sin.

My point was never to suggest that sin would have an eternal existence. The 'flaming sword' proved that.

B) Does one taste from of the tree of life provide eternal life or does one need to constantly take from it's fruit in order to live forever?

Christ said one drink of the living waters and we shall never thirst again.... yet you claim those of us who have had our drink must drink again from the "superior" waters yet to be found in the new H&E...

I would be amazed anyone would even suggest that all they want is "one taste" of the Living Water that is the Spirit of Jesus!

 

[RND]

The same earth full of sin and degradation that existed before the flood?

Exactly.

Such is taught NOWHERE in scripture. NOWHERE.
It is purely an invented man made tradition.

Sure it is.

[quote:38tgnf6g][quote:38tgnf6g]Do you know how long a Jewish "Watch in the night" is?

From the setting sun to the rising sun.[/quote:38tgnf6g]

Incorrect.
The Jews broke up the night time into 4 seperate watches. From sundown to 9PM was 1 watch, from 9PM to midnight was one watch, from Midnight to 3 AM was one watch, and from 3am to sunrise was one watch each approx. 3 hours long:
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/j ... vision.htm[/quote:38tgnf6g] Let see, did they watch during the period between sundown and sunrise? How did the Hebrews tell time at 1AM or 3AM with no clocks, watches or sundials?

[quote:38tgnf6g]Again, The Glorified Christ, FROM HEAVEN, WHILE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER, made a PROMISE to actual living breathing human beings who lived int he 1st century that His Thiefs coming would befall THEM in THEIR LIFETIME.

Then why did the church at Sardis continue after 70AD if they were taken like a thief in the night? [/quote:38tgnf6g]

Simple. Only those NOT watching were taken.

Really? Then why is there no shred of proof from any historian that describes such an event? You would think that something so momentous would be written about in great detail and yet the annuls of history is silent on this.

You are smart enough to know that only those not watching would be overtaken like a theif...Even Sardis had a few names that were worthy...

That I am. But keep in mind Sardis was 'warned to watch' thus your argument that only those NOT watching were taken is inconsistent. Why would the warning from Jesus go out to those to "watch" and as you say only those NOT watching would be taken. You are suggesting that those not obeying Jesus were indeed the ones resurrected or translated when Jesus returned in 70AD as you suggest?

You still haven't addressed the issue. Christ PROMISED the 1st century Church at Sardis that the Theifs coming would befall THEM....

Only for those not paying heed to the warning issued. The thief befell those NOT paying attention. Thus those paying attention would have been spared que no?

Although I suppose you must ignore that fact if you wish to keep your futurism.

I'm a "historicist" not a futurist.

So, the living waters of the Holy Spirit we have today are somehow inferior to the ones we are waiting for?

Not at all, nor did I suggest any such thing. You do seem to be under the impression that one only needs "one" drink of that spiritual drink while on earth while I consider that something one must do "everyday".

 

[parousia70]

My point was never to suggest that sin would have an eternal existence.

So you are an annihilationist then?

Those not found in the book of life are extinguished?

I would be amazed anyone would even suggest that all they want is "one taste" of the Living Water that is the Spirit of Jesus!

Christ said one drink of the living waters and we shall never thirst again....

You'd rather stay thirsty?
I'm amazed anyone would suggest that.

 

[parousia70]

The same earth full of sin and degradation that existed before the flood?

Exactly.

St Peter Disagrees:

2 Peter 3:6-7
6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

[quote:2vky0jhs]Such is taught NOWHERE in scripture. NOWHERE.
It is purely an invented man made tradition.

Sure it is.[/quote:2vky0jhs]

Chapter and verse?

[quote:2vky0jhs]
Simple. Only those NOT watching were taken.

Really? Then why is there no shred of proof from any historian that describes such an event? You would think that something so momentous would be written about in great detail and yet the annuls of history is silent on this.[/quote:2vky0jhs]

Silent on What? 70AD?
History is hardly silent on this momentous event.
Though unlike you, I do not need an extra biblical verification to accept a biblical teaching.

keep in mind Sardis was 'warned to watch'

Watch for what?

thus your argument that only those NOT watching were taken is inconsistent.

I thought I made it clear in the sentence that followed, that they were over-taken by the theifs coming.

Why would the warning from Jesus go out to those to "watch"

Exactly.
Why do you say Jesus warned those 1st century people to watch?
What did Jesus warn them to watch for?

The thief befell those NOT paying attention.

Correct.
And since we know there is only 1 coming of Christ as a thief taught in scripture, for ordained from the foundation of the world to take place at an appointed time, we can be confident beyond doubt that it did indeed befall the very people that were first warned by Christ to "Watch" for it, otherwise the warning is empty.

You appear to understand your "empty warning" dilemma already, as evidenced by your need to create some nondescript, unverifiable "lesser" fulfillment of the thief's coming that did indeed befall those people, and by extension must befall all peoples of all time, but scripture does not support such and indeed testifies the exact opposite, that there is only ONE.

How is it that you affirm the thief came to those people and reject it at the same time?

Thus those paying attention would have been spared que no?

Again, correct.
They would have, and indeed were, spared.

. You do seem to be under the impression that one only needs "one" drink of that spiritual drink while on earth while I consider that something one must do "everyday".

Jesus said one drink and I'll never thirst again.
He's already proven that to me.

 

[RND]

So you are an annihilationist then?

Those not found in the book of life are extinguished?

That's correct.

Christ said one drink of the living waters and we shall never thirst again....

Allegorically, I would certainly agree. Once the goodness and mercy of Jesus is tasted one would truly never want to drink from any other source of life.

You'd rather stay thirsty?

In order to humble myself and learn from my Master? Most certainly. I would always want to rely on Him for my source of life. I think you need to carefully understand the doctrine Jesus is teaching here:

Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Why would Jesus give us a "a well of water springing up into everlasting life" if He did not intend for us to continually drink from that fountain? This thought is continued here:

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Why would Jesus promise to give us who are athirst "the fountain of the water of life" and give it "freely" if He only intended for us to drink from the source of life once? If that were the case these verses would be simply ambiguitous.

I'm amazed anyone would suggest that.

Oh, I'm sure you are.

 

[parousia70]

So you are an annihilationist then?

Those not found in the book of life are extinguished?

That's correct.

and the beast and false prophet?
Extinguished as well?

[quote:1ymzhzao]Christ said one drink of the living waters and we shall never thirst again....

Allegorically, I would certainly agree.[/quote:1ymzhzao]

Terrific! I love agreement!

Why would Jesus promise to give us who are athirst "the fountain of the water of life" and give it "freely" if He only intended for us to drink from the source of life once? If that were the case these verses would be simply ambiguitous.

Not at all, the Gates of the city remain open and all who thirst are free to come in and drink. That's the reality today. Those inside the city thirst no more, but those outside remain free choose to leave the "outside" behind to come in and drink.

That is the message of the everlasting gospel.

 

[RND]

and the beast and false prophet?
Extinguished as well?

Evidently not.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[quote:tpfzaztu][quote:tpfzaztu]Christ said one drink of the living waters and we shall never thirst again....

Allegorically, I would certainly agree.[/quote:tpfzaztu]

Terrific! I love agreement![/quote:tpfzaztu] Amen!

[quote:tpfzaztu]Why would Jesus promise to give us who are athirst "the fountain of the water of life" and give it "freely" if He only intended for us to drink from the source of life once? If that were the case these verses would be simply ambiguous.

Not at all, the Gates of the city remain open and all who thirst are free to come in and drink. That's the reality today. Those inside the city thirst no more, but those outside remain free choose to leave the "outside" behind to come in and drink.

That is the message of the everlasting gospel.[/quote:tpfzaztu][/quote] Again, I think the analogy is that Jesus provides the living water constantly and freely.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

We too, once we have begun to believe in Christ are like a wellspring unto life to others.

Pro 18:4 The words of a man's mouth [are as] deep waters, [and] the wellspring of wisdom [as] a flowing brook.

 

[parousia70]

and the beast and false prophet?
Extinguished as well?

Evidently not.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Then you still have your problem of Sin existing eternally.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

What Scripture is Jesus referring to?

keep in mind Sardis was 'warned to watch'

Watch for what?

Why would the warning from Jesus go out to those to "watch"

Exactly.
Why do you say Jesus warned those 1st century people to watch?
What did Jesus warn them to watch for?

The thief befell those NOT paying attention.

Correct.
And since we know there is only 1 coming of Christ as a thief taught in scripture, for ordained from the foundation of the world to take place at an appointed time, we can be confident beyond doubt that it did indeed befall the very people that were first warned by Christ to "Watch" for it, otherwise the warning is empty.

You appear to understand your "empty warning" dilemma already, as evidenced by your need to create some nondescript, unverifiable "lesser" fulfillment of the thief's coming that did indeed befall those people, and by extension must befall all peoples of all time, but scripture does not support such and indeed testifies the exact opposite, that there is only ONE.

How is it that you affirm the thief came to those people and reject it at the same time?

 

[RND]

and the beast and false prophet?
Extinguished as well?

Evidently not.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Then you still have your problem of Sin existing eternally.

How? Is the lake of fire in heaven?

[quote:yghqcwa5]Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

What Scripture is Jesus referring to?[/quote:yghqcwa5] He was referring to many different verses: Prov. 1:23; Prov. 5:15, 16; Prov. 10:11; Joel 2:28; Isa. 44:3; Zec. 12:10; Jer. 2:13; Isa. 41:18; Isa. 43:19; Isa. 58:11; Eze. 47:1.

[quote:yghqcwa5] keep in mind Sardis was 'warned to watch'

Watch for what?[/quote:yghqcwa5] For the things that they were warned to watch for, namely in keeping the things they were given, that they had received and heard, i.e. the Word of God. They were warned that if the didn't watch after these things they would be visited.

[quote:yghqcwa5]Why would the warning from Jesus go out to those to "watch"

Exactly.
Why do you say Jesus warned those 1st century people to watch?
What did Jesus warn them to watch for?[/quote:yghqcwa5] How does this answer my question?

[quote:yghqcwa5]The thief befell those NOT paying attention.

Correct.[/quote:yghqcwa5] You seem to be suggesting the exact opposite.

And since we know there is only 1 coming of Christ as a thief taught in scripture, for ordained from the foundation of the world to take place at an appointed time, we can be confident beyond doubt that it did indeed befall the very people that were first warned by Christ to "Watch" for it, otherwise the warning is empty.

So if the second coming already happened what do we have to hope for? Nothing?

You appear to understand your "empty warning" dilemma already, as evidenced by your need to create some nondescript, unverifiable "lesser" fulfillment of the thief's coming that did indeed befall those people, and by extension must befall all peoples of all time, but scripture does not support such and indeed testifies the exact opposite, that there is only ONE.

What I'm suggesting is that you appear to be saying that those 'left behind' are lost because they weren't "taken" but the scripture supports the opposite. Those that weren't taken were the one's who helped continue to spread the word of God - they were "still watching" in other words. The position you have decided to accept says differently.

How is it that you affirm the thief came to those people and reject it at the same time?

I've never suggested such a thing! There is no "thief" that comes, Jesus comes suddenly as a thief comes.

 

[researcher]

So if the second coming already happened what do we have to hope for?

Heaven, or, a third coming, lol ;)

 

[RND]

So if the second coming already happened what do we have to hope for?

Heaven, or, a third coming, lol ;)

Since the Bible in no way addresses a third coming then I can assume then that Jesus isn't coming back?

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Guess none of us have a mansion in our Father's house to look forward to in that, according to the preterist view anyway, Jesus Christ returned in 70AD. Sorry for all of you folks looking for a mansion in God's house apparently, according to the preterist view anyway, was a ruse.

 

[parousia70]

Then you still have your problem of Sin existing eternally.

How? Is the lake of fire in heaven?

Not sure I follow.....

Arre you saying it's OK for Sin to exist forever as long as it's confined to a certain location?
Before you seemed to have an issue with the notion of sin existing forever anywhere... now you say it's OK for sin to exist forever as long as it stays in it's place?

[quote:1oi2rl4k][quote:1oi2rl4k] keep in mind Sardis was 'warned to watch'

Watch for what?[/quote:1oi2rl4k] For the things that they were warned to watch for, namely in keeping the things they were given, that they had received and heard, i.e. the Word of God. They were warned that if the didn't watch after these things they would be visited.[/quote:1oi2rl4k]

Visited by the Coming of Christ as a thief, which only happens once.

Your notion that Christ telling them to watch means He told them to "watch after things" is contrary to the scriptural teaching elsehwre where Jesus exhorts them to Watch & be ready for His coming as a thief.

[quote:1oi2rl4k][quote:1oi2rl4k]Why would the warning from Jesus go out to those to "watch"

Exactly.
Why do you say Jesus warned those 1st century people to watch?
What did Jesus warn them to watch for?[/quote:1oi2rl4k] How does this answer my question? [/quote:1oi2rl4k]

The Coming of Christ "as a thief" IS the Day of the Lord, and Christ applied that day to the 1st century Church at Sardis. (Matt 24:43, Luke 12:39, 1 Thess 5:2-4, 2 Peter 3:10, cf: Rev 3:3)

All these verses speak of the same event.

[quote:1oi2rl4k]The thief befell those NOT paying attention.

Correct.[/quote:1oi2rl4k] You seem to be suggesting the exact opposite.[/quote]

I apologize if I haven't been more clear then.

So if the second coming already happened what do we have to hope for? Nothing?

Are you suggesting that after the 2nd coming your hope will be destroyed and you will have nothing to hope for??

My hope is in Heaven. Isn't yours?

 

[researcher]

So if the second coming already happened what do we have to hope for?

Heaven, or, a third coming, lol ;)

Since the Bible in no way addresses a third coming then I can assume then that Jesus isn't coming back?

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Guess none of us have a mansion in our Father's house to look forward to in that, according to the preterist view anyway, Jesus Christ returned in 70AD. Sorry for all of you folks looking for a mansion in God's house apparently, according to the preterist view anyway, was a ruse.

Depends how you look at it, lol

1st century or therabouts
Rev 19:11 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army.

Millennium or long period of time
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Third coming
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Unless parousia70 is right and it all happened already, lol.

 

[parousia70]

So if the second coming already happened what do we have to hope for?

Heaven, or, a third coming, lol ;)

Since the Bible in no way addresses a third coming then I can assume then that Jesus isn't coming back?

He's already here.

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Guess none of us have a mansion in our Father's house to look forward to in that, according to the preterist view anyway, Jesus Christ returned in 70AD.

All preterists look forward to that, contrary to your straw man.

even though we know we are laready in that mansion, We understand we have to wait till we shed this earthly tent before we can experience it without the veil.

It doesn't make it any less real.

 

[RND]

Depends how you look at it, lol

1st century or therabouts
Rev 19:11 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army.

How does this indicate the 1st Century return of Jesus since Christianity had not yet spread to the entire world in 70AD. The "kings of the earth" reference seems to indicate the involvement of all of the earth.

Millennium or long period of time
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Would this have happened 1,000 years after 70AD? If so, what historical reference does this represent?

Third coming
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.

How does this view taken into account Verses 2 to 5 of Revelation 20?

Unless parousia70 is right and it all happened already, lol.

Which we know it didn't.

 

[parousia70]

How does this indicate the 1st Century return of Jesus since Christianity had not yet spread to the entire world in 70AD. .

St Paul Disagrees with you:

Colossians 1:5-6 (NKJV) because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23 (NKJV) if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul says in AD 62, that it has been preached to every creature. Paul also said that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 1:8 (NKJV) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Paul said that the gospel was made known to all nations.

Romans 16:25-26 (NKJV) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

In the face of such clear testimony, infallibly inspired by the Holy Spirit, I'm always amazed how any Christian can continue to profess the opposite.

 

[researcher]

How does this indicate the 1st Century return of Jesus since Christianity had not yet spread to the entire world in 70AD. The "kings of the earth" reference seems to indicate the involvement of all of the earth.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

World
oikoumen?
oy-kou-men'-ay
Feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication of G1093); land, that is, the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically the Roman empire: - earth, world.

Also used here:
Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

All the world or the part the Roman Empire controlled?

Titus 2:11 For the saving grace of God was manifested to All men,

Rom 16:26 made known to All nations for the obedience of faith:

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the Whole world.

Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.

The "kings of the earth" reference seems to indicate the involvement of all of the earth.

Kings of the earth, or of the Land?

Same Greek word used as "Land" in these verses
Land, 33
Mat_2:6, Mat_2:20-21 (2), Mat_4:15 (2), Mat_9:26, Mat_10:15, Mat_11:24, Mat_14:34, Mat_27:45, Luk_21:23, Joh_3:22, Joh_6:21, Joh_21:8-9 (2), Joh_21:11, Act_7:3-4 (3), Act_7:6, Act_7:11, Act_7:29, Act_7:36, Act_7:40, Act_13:17, Act_13:19 (2), Act_27:39, Act_27:43-44 (2), Heb_11:9 (2), Jud_1:5

 

[parousia70]

Nice!

 

[RND]

He's already here.

He never left? Or when He came back in 70AD He decided to stick around and hang out just to see what would happen? Also, how does your statement here square with this verse:

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.

The very words of Jesus tell me not to believe you.

[quote:35w1rul5]Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Guess none of us have a mansion in our Father's house to look forward to in that, according to the preterist view anyway, Jesus Christ returned in 70AD.

All preterists look forward to that, contrary to your straw man.[/quote:35w1rul5] Strawman? Honest questions quite frankly that I'd love to see you address for clarity.

We Just understand we have to wait till we shed this earthly tent before we enter that mansion.

Ah, so here we get to the heart of the belief finally! You believe that our "spirits" inhabit heaven for when we die I'm assuming. Question: Paul said Jesus is coming back to judge the quick (alive) and dead (2 Ti 4:1). Wouldn't this be unnecessary if we float off to heaven at death? Also, Jesus along with Paul says there will be resurrection on the last day. You suggest that happened already in 70AD. Does that mean after 70AD death is somehow treated different (as in no resurrection) than before 70AD - please use scripture to cite your answers. Thanks.