Jesus came back.. and Destroyed Jerusalem

[RND]

Allowed it to be razed or Ordained it razed?

Allowed. It never would have been destroyed if it wasn't allowed.

No? all this was ordained to take place "When the Lord of the Vineyard Comes" after all...

He hasn't come. Proof of that is there are still those working in the Vineyard (which is symbolic of the world).

Prove this with scripture

There have been a number of minor resurrections of people - Moshe, Elijah, Enoch, those resurrected at Jesus' death.

Clearly John's prophecy for the church tells us that the resurrection hasn't taken place. John talks about the ten year reign of terror Diocletian unleashed on the Christian church in Rome in 303 to 313AD when he quotes Jesus as saying, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Since a day is equivalent for a year in Bible prophecy (Ez, 4:6, Num. 14:34) this passage alone fits the dastardly reign of Diocletian. There is nothing prior to 70AD where this prophecy could fit - none.

Now, since you asked me to prove that the resurrection hasn't occurred yet with scripture can you do the same to prove that it has?

Of course not. The criteria for antichrist spelled out in 1 & 2 John is VERY specific, and Nero did not fit it at all.
He was the Beast however.

If Nero was the beast in Daniel 7 who or what was the "little horn" that came from amongst this beast's horns?

Dan 7:23 ¶ Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. (This is the Roman Empire) Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Please show me, using scripture of course (since that is the criteria you have laid down), who this power that arises from among the ten kingdoms that come out of the Roman Empire is. Thank you. Who are the three kings (kingdoms) that he subdues?

Prove this with scripture.

Sure.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Have you received your reward yet?

 

[Adullam]

Was Jesus disguised as Roman legions?

 

[parousia70]

Was Jesus disguised as Roman legions?

It was no disguise

 

[parousia70]

Allowed it to be razed or Ordained it razed?

Allowed. It never would have been destroyed if it wasn't allowed.

If God Gives the prophesy, is it not God that brings it to pass?

Isaiah 55:11
So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

God didn't merely stand idly by and "allow" Jerusalem to be razed, he Ordained it.

He hasn't come. Proof of that is there are still those working in the Vineyard (which is symbolic of the world).

Now now...lets stick to scripture. I'm really not interested in the "just look around you" argument. Show it to me WITHOUT appealing to an authority apart from scripture.

There have been a number of minor resurrections of people - Moshe, Elijah, Enoch, those resurrected at Jesus' death.

Indeed, the writers of scripture have a range of uses for the term "resurrection." The scriptures use the word to speak of Israel's national restorations/victories (Isa 26:13-14,19-20; Ez 37), personal salvation, baptism, the transfer of departed souls from the Old Testament Hades (Heb. sheol) into God's heaven, and the eternal state itself.

Of these uses, the most overlooked application of the term pertains to the removal and transfer of the Old Testament dead ones from Hades into God's transcendent heaven--a major New Covenant shift which occurred during the first century. In OT times, the righteous dead did not ascend into heaven, but were kept in Hades due to the absence of a covenant sacrifice that cleansed them fully. Christ himself went to this Hades at his death (Acts 2:27,31), before ascending to heaven.

While nearly all Christian groups recognize that this major change took place for the dead between the Old Testament and New Testament eras, the precise timing of that change is almost never identified, nor does it necessarily have to be, for the faithful to accept that it has indeed come to pass. Scripture alone gives us that certainty.

Clearly John's prophecy for the church tells us that the resurrection hasn't taken place.

Incorrect.

John talks about the ten year reign of terror Diocletian unleashed on the Christian church in Rome in 303 to 313AD when he quotes Jesus as saying, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

That sure is some fanciful speculation.
Who do you say was Jesus talking to here?

Since a day is equivalent for a year in Bible prophecy (Ez, 4:6, Num. 14:34) this passage alone fits the dastardly reign of Diocletian. There is nothing prior to 70AD where this prophecy could fit - none.

I though you people claimed a day is equivalent to a thousand years in prophesy...now it's just one year?

Now, since you asked me to prove that the resurrection hasn't occurred yet with scripture can you do the same to prove that it has?

Yep.
Revelation 3:3
The death nail in futurism's coffin

Please show me, using scripture of course (since that is the criteria you have laid down), who this power that arises from among the ten kingdoms that come out of the Roman Empire is. Thank you. Who are the three kings (kingdoms) that he subdues?

See Rev 3:3 above.
That verse alone CEMENTS all these events to the first century. Every one.

[quote:16rsqcxc]Prove this with scripture.

Sure.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. [/quote:16rsqcxc]

Another verse cementing these events to the immediate lives of those who FIRST received the prophesy.

Have you received your reward yet?

You subscribe to salvation through works?

 

[RND]

If God Gives the prophesy, is it not God that brings it to pass?

Isaiah 55:11
So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

God didn't merely stand idly by and "allow" Jerusalem to be razed, he Ordained it.

Prophesying that something will happen is not the equivalent of God doing the actual deed. For example, when God prophesied through Jeremiah that Judah would be overthrown and Egypt destroyed He used Babylon to accomplish His words. He allowed it to happen.

Now now...lets stick to scripture. I'm really not interested in the "just look around you" argument. Show it to me WITHOUT appealing to an authority apart from scripture.

There is no way to show it to you BUT through scripture! Your arguments seem thoroughly centered on providing scripture so that's what I did. Besides, you brought up the vineyard!

Mat 20:1 ¶ For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

Who's the householder? Who are the laborers? What does the vineyard represent? We have to be very specific as to what these things represent.

Indeed, the writers of scripture have a range of uses for the term "resurrection." The scriptures use the word to speak of Israel's national restorations/victories (Isa 26:13-14,19-20; Ez 37), personal salvation, baptism, the transfer of departed souls from the Old Testament Hades (Heb. sheol) into God's heaven, and the eternal state itself.

Scripture in the OT never once describes the departed going into God's heaven before the resurrection.

Of these uses, the most overlooked application of the term pertains to the removal and transfer of the Old Testament dead ones from Hades into God's transcendent heaven--a major New Covenant shift which occurred during the first century. In OT times, the righteous dead did not ascend into heaven, but were kept in Hades due to the absence of a covenant sacrifice that cleansed them fully. Christ himself went to this Hades at his death (Acts 2:27,31), before ascending to heaven.

Christ went to the tomb - just like we all do. The dead aren't treated any differently now than they were then.

While nearly all Christian groups recognize that this major change took place for the dead between the Old Testament and New Testament eras, the precise timing of that change is almost never identified, nor does it necessarily have to be, for the faithful to accept that it has indeed come to pass. Scripture alone gives us that certainty.

Well, there is nothing in either testament frankly that suggest the dead are anywhere but the grave awaiting resurrection.

The notion that man has a anthropomorphic "dual nature" is not found anywhere in scripture.

[quote:5spy7dfo]Clearly John's prophecy for the church tells us that the resurrection hasn't taken place.

Incorrect.[/quote:5spy7dfo] Well, you are certainly free to disagree but your argument would be better served by providing an example of how I'm incorrect instead of just saying so.

[quote:5spy7dfo]John talks about the ten year reign of terror Diocletian unleashed on the Christian church in Rome in 303 to 313AD when he quotes Jesus as saying, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

That sure is some fanciful speculation.[/quote:5spy7dfo] Do you have a different interpretation you'd care to share or do you want to just make inane statements that do nothing to support your view?

Who do you say was Jesus talking to here?

You mean it isn't obvious? John is being told what to write to the angel's of the seven churches by Jesus.

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

[quote:5spy7dfo]Since a day is equivalent for a year in Bible prophecy (Ez, 4:6, Num. 14:34) this passage alone fits the dastardly reign of Diocletian. There is nothing prior to 70AD where this prophecy could fit - none.

I though you people claimed a day is equivalent to a thousand years in prophesy...now it's just one year?[/quote:5spy7dfo] No, I never suggested such a thing. A day to God is like a thousand years to man.

[quote:5spy7dfo]
Now, since you asked me to prove that the resurrection hasn't occurred yet with scripture can you do the same to prove that it has?

Yep.
Revelation 3:3
The death nail in futurism's coffin[/quote:5spy7dfo]

Well, let's see:

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

This was written to the church of Sardis. Yet there is language that is written in present tense that gives the distinct impression that the things mentioned are going to happen, not that they have already happened.

Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

"they shall walk with me in white" certainly gives the impression that walking with Jesus is a future happening, not something that has already happened.

[quote:5spy7dfo]Please show me, using scripture of course (since that is the criteria you have laid down), who this power that arises from among the ten kingdoms that come out of the Roman Empire is. Thank you. Who are the three kings (kingdoms) that he subdues?

See Rev 3:3 above.[/quote:5spy7dfo] That says nothing about who that "little horn" is.

That verse alone CEMENTS all these events to the first century. Every one.

Not in my opinion it doesn't. Frankly I don't believe you've given much though to whom the 'little horn' is.

[quote:5spy7dfo][quote:5spy7dfo]Prove this with scripture.

Sure.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. [/quote:5spy7dfo]

Another verse cementing these events to the immediate lives of those who FIRST received the prophesy. [/quote:5spy7dfo] I'm confused. You said Rev 3:3 cemented many things but now you are adding Rev 22:12? Has the pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb happened already?

You subscribe to salvation through works?

Why is it that you can't answer a direct question? It shows just how poor your arguments are. As for salvation by works.....that's impossible.

 

[parousia70]

He used Babylon to accomplish His words. He allowed it to happen.

Those two sentences directly contradict one another.

Scripture in the OT never once describes the departed going into God's heaven before the resurrection.

Which Resurrection?
The one where we are "raised" in Christ through Baptism?

Christ went to the tomb - just like we all do. The dead aren't treated any differently now than they were then.

Rather, they are.

[quote:h3auwfv5]
That sure is some fanciful speculation.

Do you have a different interpretation you'd care to share or do you want to just make inane statements that do nothing to support your view? [/quote:h3auwfv5]

Sure. It was directly applicable to those 1st century people who first received it. not some other people centuries removed as you suggest.

[quote:h3auwfv5]Who do you say was Jesus talking to here?

You mean it isn't obvious? John is being told what to write to the angel's of the seven churches by Jesus. [/quote:h3auwfv5]

Seven first century Churches.

[quote:h3auwfv5]

I though you people claimed a day is equivalent to a thousand years in prophesy...now it's just one year?

No, I never suggested such a thing. A day to God is like a thousand years to man. [/quote:h3auwfv5]

Isn't 3 hours to God Like 1000 years to man as well?? (Psalm 90:4)

[quote:h3auwfv5]
Revelation 3:3
The death nail in futurism's coffin

Well, let's see:

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

This was written to the church of Sardis. Yet there is language that is written in present tense that gives the distinct impression that the things mentioned are going to happen, not that they have already happened.[/quote:h3auwfv5]

Going to happen to those actual air breathing blood pumping human beings who lived in the first century and were part of that 1st century church at Sardis, yes.

In Revelation 3:3 we have the glorified Christ, from Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father, promising actual 1st century people that His thief's coming would befall THEM in their time.

Futurism stops dead in it's tracks right there.

"they shall walk with me in white" certainly gives the impression that walking with Jesus is a future happening, not something that has already happened.

Future to them hardly necessitates future to us.

Has the pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb happened already?

Jesus is our living waters already. They have indeed arrived.He told us so
(Jn 4:10-11,7:38)

[quote:h3auwfv5]You subscribe to salvation through works?

As for salvation by works.....that's impossible.[/quote:h3auwfv5]

Then why are you looking to be judged in the future according to your works?

 

[RND]

Those two sentences directly contradict one another.

How?

[quote:2mpm2el0] Scripture in the OT never once describes the departed going into God's heaven before the resurrection.

Which Resurrection?[/quote:2mpm2el0] The one on the last day.

The one where we are "raised" in Christ through Baptism?

That's symbolic of partaking in His death, burial and resurrection, not emblematic of our actual death, burial and resurrection.

[quote:2mpm2el0]
Christ went to the tomb - just like we all do. The dead aren't treated any differently now than they were then.

Rather, they are.[/quote:2mpm2el0] How?

[quote:2mpm2el0][quote:2mpm2el0]
That sure is some fanciful speculation.

Do you have a different interpretation you'd care to share or do you want to just make inane statements that do nothing to support your view? [/quote:2mpm2el0]

Sure. It was directly applicable to those 1st century people who first received it. not some other people centuries removed as you suggest.[/quote:2mpm2el0] That really doesn't tell me much. What specifically does that ten day period represent? Do you know?

[quote:2mpm2el0][quote:2mpm2el0]Who do you say was Jesus talking to here?

You mean it isn't obvious? John is being told what to write to the angel's of the seven churches by Jesus. [/quote:2mpm2el0]

Seven first century Churches.[/quote:2mpm2el0] The seven churches did in fact actually exist - that's true. But you asked me, "Who do you say was Jesus talking to here?" Jesus was talking to John. John was prophesying about the seven churches.

[quote:2mpm2el0][quote:2mpm2el0]

I though you people claimed a day is equivalent to a thousand years in prophesy...now it's just one year?

No, I never suggested such a thing. A day to God is like a thousand years to man. [/quote:2mpm2el0]

Isn't 3 hours to God Like 1000 years to man as well?? (Psalm 90:4)[/quote:2mpm2el0] For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night. A thousand years are like a day to the Lord - at least I gather that's what Psalms 90:4 is saying.

Going to happen to those actual air breathing blood pumping human beings who lived in the first century and were part of that 1st century church at Sardis, yes.

The church of Sardis existed long after 70 AD.

In Revelation 3:3 we have the glorified Christ, from Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father, promising actual 1st century people that His thief's coming would befall THEM in their time.

Futurism stops dead in it's tracks right there.

Again, if you look at the tense used you can plainly see that the language used is future tense.

"they shall walk with me in white"

Future to them hardly necessitates future to us.

Everything is "future" for everyone - tomorrow is the future for you and for those yet to be born right?

[quote:2mpm2el0] Has the pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb happened already?

Jesus is our living waters already. They have indeed arrived.He told us so
(Jn 4:10-11,7:38)[/quote:2mpm2el0]

Has this happened then?

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

If so, when.

Then why are you looking to be judged in the future according to your works?

My docket is cleared so I'm not worried about being judged. The truckload of charges that Satan will bring before the Lord's court has already been dismissed.

 

[parousia70]

Those two sentences directly contradict one another.

How?

He used Babylon to accomplish His words. = Active

He allowed it to happen. = Passive

Scripture in the OT never once describes the departed going into God's heaven before the resurrection.

[quote:93yleqk1]Which Resurrection?

The one on the last day.[/quote:93yleqk1]

The last day of what?

[quote:93yleqk1][quote:93yleqk1]
The dead aren't treated any differently now than they were then.

Rather, they are.[/quote:93yleqk1] How?[/quote:93yleqk1]

The "death" that Jesus defeated for the saints was the "Hadean death" of the Old Testamental period. Departed saints of Old Testament times all went to Hades where they were separated from God. There they remained separated from God until the Parousia of AD 70. The OT saints did not go to God's eternal heaven until that time. Jesus himself, having lived and died during the Old Covenant age, went to Hades at about AD 30 (Acts 2:27,31). Three days later He left Hades and ascended to heaven as the firstfruits out from the hadean dead (1 Cor 15:20; Acts 26:23; Rev 1:5; Col 1:18). Christ's resurrection out of Hades and ascension to heaven signalled that the covenantal change for all the dead was about to take place (Acts 24:15 YLT)--the rest of the dead in Hades were to follow Him at the end of the Mosaic age, when the Law of Moses was no longer extant for the Israelites (1 Cor 15:54-56). Paul, writing about the end of Hadean death at the close of the Mosaic age, states triumphantly:

...then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory. Where, O Death, is thy sting? where, O HADES, is thy victory?'...the sting of the death is sin, and the power of sin is the law [of Moses] (1 Cor 15:54-56)
There, in Paul's summary statement on resurrection, we read that sin reckoned against the Israelites via the Law of Moses is what had kept the saints of God defeated and separated in Hades. The power of Hades had temporal victory. However, once the Mosaic Covenant fully vanished at AD 70 (Heb 8:13; Heb 10:9), so did Hadean death (1 Cor 15:54-56), and the OT saints ascended into their heavenly reward. From that point forward, all those who die in Christ do the same.

[quote:93yleqk1]
Sure. It was directly applicable to those 1st century people who first received it. not some other people centuries removed as you suggest.

That really doesn't tell me much. What specifically does that ten day period represent? Do you know? [/quote:93yleqk1]

I know it was ordained to befall the original receivers of the prophesy, for sure.
The promise of Christ is enough for me. When will it be enough for you?

The seven churches did in fact actually exist - that's true.

I'm glad we agree on something
Tell me, Why then do you insist Christ failed to follow through with His promise to come to the 1st century Church at Sardis "as a Thief"? You have not addressed that.

[quote:93yleqk1]
Isn't 3 hours to God Like 1000 years to man as well?? (Psalm 90:4)

For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night. A thousand years are like a day to the Lord - at least I gather that's what Psalms 90:4 is saying.[/quote:93yleqk1]

1000 years is like a day OR like a Watch in the night.

Do you know how long a Jewish "Watch in the night" is?

The church of Sardis existed long after 70 AD.

So?

[quote:93yleqk1]In Revelation 3:3 we have the glorified Christ, from Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father, promising actual 1st century people that His thief's coming would befall THEM in their time.

Futurism stops dead in it's tracks right there.

Again, if you look at the tense used you can plainly see that the language used is future tense. [/quote:93yleqk1]

Again, The Glorified Christ, FROM HEAVEN, WHILE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER, made a PROMISE to actual living breathing human beings who lived int he 1st century that His Thiefs coming would befall THEM in THEIR LIFETIME.

[quote:93yleqk1]Future to them hardly necessitates future to us.

Everything is "future" for everyone [/quote:93yleqk1]


Really, EVERYTHING?
Is World War 2 future to you?

[quote:93yleqk1] [quote:93yleqk1]Has the pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb happened already?

Jesus is our living waters already. They have indeed arrived.He told us so
(Jn 4:10-11,7:38)[/quote:93yleqk1]

Has this happened then?[/quote:93yleqk1]

Hold on a minute....
address the issue...
Do you or do you not believe that Living Waters that Christ spoke of in Jn 4:10-11,7:38 are fully and completely available to you in Christ Jesus Today as He said they were, or are you still waiting for them??

Now to your diversion...

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

Tell me, if this is supposed to happen in your view after the world has been destroyed by fire and everything made anew, Why are the nations in need of healing?

Who do you say is sick in the New H&E?

[quote:93yleqk1]Then why are you looking to be judged in the future according to your works?

My docket is cleared so I'm not worried about being judged. The truckload of charges that Satan will bring before the Lord's court has already been dismissed.[/quote:93yleqk1]

Hey, you are the onle who said Jesus has not rewarded you for your works yet...

 

[RND]

Those two sentences directly contradict one another.

How?

He used Babylon to accomplish His words. = Active

He allowed it to happen. = Passive

Scripture in the OT never once describes the departed going into God's heaven before the resurrection.

[quote:1tnag5cm]Which Resurrection?

The one on the last day.[/quote:1tnag5cm]

The last day of what?

[quote:1tnag5cm][quote:1tnag5cm]
The dead aren't treated any differently now than they were then.

Rather, they are.[/quote:1tnag5cm] How?[/quote:1tnag5cm]

The "death" that Jesus defeated for the saints was the "Hadean death" of the Old Testamental period. Departed saints of Old Testament times all went to Hades where they were separated from God. There they remained separated from God until the Parousia of AD 70. The OT saints did not go to God's eternal heaven until that time. Jesus himself, having lived and died during the Old Covenant age, went to Hades at about AD 30 (Acts 2:27,31). Three days later He left Hades and ascended to heaven as the firstfruits out from the hadean dead (1 Cor 15:20; Acts 26:23; Rev 1:5; Col 1:18). Christ's resurrection out of Hades and ascension to heaven signalled that the covenantal change for all the dead was about to take place (Acts 24:15 YLT)--the rest of the dead in Hades were to follow Him at the end of the Mosaic age, when the Law of Moses was no longer extant for the Israelites (1 Cor 15:54-56). Paul, writing about the end of Hadean death at the close of the Mosaic age, states triumphantly:

...then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory. Where, O Death, is thy sting? where, O HADES, is thy victory?'...the sting of the death is sin, and the power of sin is the law [of Moses] (1 Cor 15:54-56)
There, in Paul's summary statement on resurrection, we read that sin reckoned against the Israelites via the Law of Moses is what had kept the saints of God defeated and separated in Hades. The power of Hades had temporal victory. However, once the Mosaic Covenant fully vanished at AD 70 (Heb 8:13; Heb 10:9), so did Hadean death (1 Cor 15:54-56), and the OT saints ascended into their heavenly reward. From that point forward, all those who die in Christ do the same.

[quote:1tnag5cm]
Sure. It was directly applicable to those 1st century people who first received it. not some other people centuries removed as you suggest.

That really doesn't tell me much. What specifically does that ten day period represent? Do you know? [/quote:1tnag5cm]

I know it was ordained to befall the original receivers of the prophesy, for sure.
The promise of Christ is enough for me. When will it be enough for you?

The seven churches did in fact actually exist - that's true.

I'm glad we agree on something
Tell me, Why then do you insist Christ failed to follow through with His promise to come to the 1st century Church at Sardis "as a Thief"? You have not addressed that.

[quote:1tnag5cm]
Isn't 3 hours to God Like 1000 years to man as well?? (Psalm 90:4)

For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night. A thousand years are like a day to the Lord - at least I gather that's what Psalms 90:4 is saying.[/quote:1tnag5cm]

1000 years is like a day OR like a Watch in the night.

Do you know how long a Jewish "Watch in the night" is?

The church of Sardis existed long after 70 AD.

So?

[quote:1tnag5cm]In Revelation 3:3 we have the glorified Christ, from Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father, promising actual 1st century people that His thief's coming would befall THEM in their time.

Futurism stops dead in it's tracks right there.

Again, if you look at the tense used you can plainly see that the language used is future tense. [/quote:1tnag5cm]

Again, The Glorified Christ, FROM HEAVEN, WHILE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER, made a PROMISE to actual living breathing human beings who lived int he 1st century that His Thiefs coming would befall THEM in THEIR LIFETIME.

[quote:1tnag5cm]Future to them hardly necessitates future to us.

Everything is "future" for everyone [/quote:1tnag5cm]


Really, EVERYTHING?
Is World War 2 future to you?

[quote:1tnag5cm] [quote:1tnag5cm]Has the pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb happened already?

Jesus is our living waters already. They have indeed arrived.He told us so
(Jn 4:10-11,7:38)[/quote:1tnag5cm]

Has this happened then?[/quote:1tnag5cm]

Hold on a minute....
address the issue...
Do you or do you not believe that Living Waters that Christ spoke of in Jn 4:10-11,7:38 are fully and completely available to you in Christ Jesus Today as He said they were, or are you still waiting for them??

Now to your diversion...

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

Tell me, if this is supposed to happen in your view after the world has been destroyed by fire and everything made anew, Why are the nations in need of healing?

Who do you say is sick in the New H&E?

[quote:1tnag5cm]Then why are you looking to be judged in the future according to your works?

My docket is cleared so I'm not worried about being judged. The truckload of charges that Satan will bring before the Lord's court has already been dismissed.[/quote:1tnag5cm]

Hey, you are the onle who said Jesus has not rewarded you for your works yet...[/quote]

 

[RND]

Those two sentences directly contradict one another.

How?

He used Babylon to accomplish His words. = Active

He allowed it to happen. = Passive

One is a verb and the other an adjective that describes an action. Thus there is no contradiction.

[quote:2rjee4ff]The one on the last day.

The last day of what?[/quote:2rjee4ff] The last day of this present earth's history. The same earth full of sin and degradation that was present in 70AD.

[quote:2rjee4ff]How?

The "death" that Jesus defeated for the saints was the "Hadean death" of the Old Testamental period. Departed saints of Old Testament times all went to Hades where they were separated from God. There they remained separated from God until the Parousia of AD 70. The OT saints did not go to God's eternal heaven until that time. Jesus himself, having lived and died during the Old Covenant age, went to Hades at about AD 30 (Acts 2:27,31). Three days later He left Hades and ascended to heaven as the firstfruits out from the hadean dead (1 Cor 15:20; Acts 26:23; Rev 1:5; Col 1:18). Christ's resurrection out of Hades and ascension to heaven signalled that the covenantal change for all the dead was about to take place (Acts 24:15 YLT)--the rest of the dead in Hades were to follow Him at the end of the Mosaic age, when the Law of Moses was no longer extant for the Israelites (1 Cor 15:54-56). Paul, writing about the end of Hadean death at the close of the Mosaic age, states triumphantly:

...then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory. Where, O Death, is thy sting? where, O HADES, is thy victory?'...the sting of the death is sin, and the power of sin is the law [of Moses] (1 Cor 15:54-56)
There, in Paul's summary statement on resurrection, we read that sin reckoned against the Israelites via the Law of Moses is what had kept the saints of God defeated and separated in Hades. The power of Hades had temporal victory. However, once the Mosaic Covenant fully vanished at AD 70 (Heb 8:13; Heb 10:9), so did Hadean death (1 Cor 15:54-56), and the OT saints ascended into their heavenly reward. From that point forward, all those who die in Christ do the same.[/quote:2rjee4ff] I have news for you. People that die in this world today go to the same place. It's called the "grave" which is the place of the dead. Job knew what happened at death and was kind enough to tell us.

There is no such association of "Hadean" death found anywhere in scripture. People that die, whether they be "in Christ" or not, all take their time in the eternal dirt nap until they are raised by the last trump and the voice of the archangel. See Job 14:10-15, 17:13-16, Job 19:24-27

[quote:2rjee4ff] That really doesn't tell me much. What specifically does that ten day period represent? Do you know?

I know it was ordained to befall the original receivers of the prophesy, for sure.
The promise of Christ is enough for me. When will it be enough for you?[/quote:2rjee4ff] So in other words, you have no answer, other than to tell me I'm wrong! Classic! Why not just say, "I don't know"? It's a lot more honest than disingenuously telling me I'm wrong but having to answer to tell me why.

Could you imagine your teacher doing the same with your kids?

[quote:2rjee4ff] The seven churches did in fact actually exist - that's true.

I'm glad we agree on something
Tell me, Why then do you insist Christ failed to follow through with His promise to come to the 1st century Church at Sardis "as a Thief"? You have not addressed that.[/quote:2rjee4ff] The churches listed in Rev. 2 and 3 are listed in "prophetic" order and represent church history from the beginning of the apostolic period to the present day.

Sardis. This word signifies prince or song of joy, or that which remains. For the period covered by this church, we come down this side of the Reformation, and of papal supremacy. By the Sardis church is undoubtedly meant, the churches brought out by the great Reformation; and the definition of the name answers well to the condition of the church during this period. What high position has it held? What favor has it had with the world? But how has pride and popularity grown apace until spirituality is almost entirely destroyed. This church is to hear the proclamation of the second coming of Christ in all its power; for the true witness says, "If thou shalt not watch I will come upon thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." The coming here brought to view is unconditional. By watching they would be prepared for it; and by not watching they would be overtaken as by a thief by this event. This proclamation they have heard in the great Advent movement of the present generation.

In the 5th verse we have some solemn facts stated in regard to the book of life. He that overcometh will not have his name blotted out; and this implies that all those who do not overcome will have their names blotted out from the book of life. This work of blotting out, as we have seen in our investigation of the sanctuary, takes place at the close of Christ's priestly work in Heaven. There will be at the conclusion of that work but two classes: one class having their names retained in the Lamb's book of life, and their sins blotted out of the book of God's remembrance; the other having their names blotted from the book of life and their sins retained to appear against them in the Judgment.
-- Uriah Smith, Biblical Institute, p 248-249

1000 years is like a day OR like a Watch in the night.

A day, from sun-down to sun-down.

Do you know how long a Jewish "Watch in the night" is?

From the setting sun to the rising sun.

[quote:2rjee4ff] The church of Sardis existed long after 70 AD.

So?[/quote:2rjee4ff] So that means the prophetic words didn't end there. They were for another time. If 70AD was to be the end of the church age because Christ came then why did the Sardis church continue?

[quote:2rjee4ff][quote:2rjee4ff]In Revelation 3:3 we have the glorified Christ, from Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father, promising actual 1st century people that His thief's coming would befall THEM in their time.

Futurism stops dead in it's tracks right there.

Again, if you look at the tense used you can plainly see that the language used is future tense. [/quote:2rjee4ff]

Again, The Glorified Christ, FROM HEAVEN, WHILE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER, made a PROMISE to actual living breathing human beings who lived int he 1st century that His Thiefs coming would befall THEM in THEIR LIFETIME.[/quote:2rjee4ff] Then why did the church at Sardis continue after 70AD if they were taken like a thief in the night? Also, why is there -zero- recorded history of a mass resurrection in 70AD? Also, why 70AD anyway? The temple was taken in 63AD and Jerusalem wasn't finally overthrown until 73AD. Now, the sticking point for you would be is this the "ten day" period that John spoke of? How can it be when you insist Revelation ended in 70AD? Questions, questions, questions.

Really, EVERYTHING?
Is World War 2 future to you?

For those born before WWII it was future. I was born after so for me it is history. That's not to say it didn't happen. WWIII is future for me and anyone born up until it happens. From that point on it becomes history.

[quote:2rjee4ff] Has this happened then?

Hold on a minute....
address the issue...[/quote:2rjee4ff] I think you're stalling!

Do you or do you not believe that Living Waters that Christ spoke of in Jn 4:10-11,7:38 are fully and completely available to you in Christ Jesus Today as He said they were, or are you still waiting for them??

The living water that Jesus spoke of has "two" applications. One is the Holy Spirit and the second, in Revelation, refers to the living waters that we will partake in throughout eternity.

Now to your diversion...

[quote:2rjee4ff]Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

Tell me, if this is supposed to happen in your view after the world has been destroyed by fire and everything made anew, Why are the nations in need of healing?[/quote:2rjee4ff] This is a description of the heavenly and not the earthly.

The tree of life, in this paradise. Such a tree there was in the earthly paradise, Gen. 2:9. This far excels it. And now, as to this tree, observe, 1. The situation of it—in the midst of the street, and on either side the river; or, as might have been better rendered, in the midst between the terrace-walk and the river. This tree of life is fed by the pure waters of the river that comes from the throne of God. The presence and perfections of God furnish out all the glory and blessedness of heaven. 2. The fruitfulness of this tree. (1.) It brings forth many sorts of fruit—twelve sorts, suited to the refined taste of all the saints. (2.) It brings forth fruit at all times—yields its fruit every month. This tree is never empty, never barren; there is always fruit upon it. In heaven there is not only a variety of pure and satisfying pleasures, but a continuance of them, and always fresh. (3.) The fruit is not only pleasant, but wholesome.

Who do you say is sick in the New H&E?

The presence of God in heaven is the health and happiness of the saints; there they find in him a remedy for all their former maladies, and are preserved by him in the most healthful and vigorous state. This is certainly NOT the case now. We know that because we still get old, sick and die.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

The word "and" indicates the continuation of the thought that verse 2 laid out. Thus there will be "no more curse" meaning no more death.

Hey, you are the onle who said Jesus has not rewarded you for your works yet...

Funny! You have a hard time letting go and being honest! Know this, I'm still in this life and have yet to appear before the Throne of God. I have a reward awaiting me. A white stone with my new name on it. I'm not worried about being judged because my High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary has taken my sin for me. So, no works on my part are necessary - sorry to disappoint you.

 

[researcher]

RND, what do you think the tree of life is?

 

[RND]

RND, what do you think the tree of life is?

Just that, the "tree of life" - eternal life through Jesus Christ.

The Leaves of the Tree of Life.--[Revelation 2:7 quoted.] Must we wait until we are translated before we eat of the leaves of the tree of life? He who receives into his heart the words of Christ knows what it means to eat the leaves of the tree of life. [John 6:33-63 quoted.] When the believer, in the fellowship of the Spirit, can lay his hand upon truth itself, and appropriate it, he eats the bread that comes down from heaven. He enters into the life of Christ, and appreciates the great sacrifice made in behalf of the sinful race.

The knowledge that comes from God is the bread of life. It is the leaves of the tree of life which are for the healing of the nations. The current of spiritual life thrills the soul as the words of Christ are believed and practiced. Thus it is that we are made one with Christ. The experience that was weak and feeble becomes strong. It is eternal life to us if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end. All truth is to be received as the life of Jesus. Truth cleanses us from all impurity, and prepares the soul for Christ's presence. Christ is formed within, the hope of glory. -- S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7, page 957

Had sinful man had access to the tree of life sin would have continued forever.

Had man, after his fall, been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life," [Genesis 3:24.] and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. -- The Great Controversy, page 533

 

[researcher]

RND, what do you think the tree of life is?

Just that, the "tree of life" - eternal life through Jesus Christ.

The Leaves of the Tree of Life.--[Revelation 2:7 quoted.] Must we wait until we are translated before we eat of the leaves of the tree of life? He who receives into his heart the words of Christ knows what it means to eat the leaves of the tree of life. [John 6:33-63 quoted.] When the believer, in the fellowship of the Spirit, can lay his hand upon truth itself, and appropriate it, he eats the bread that comes down from heaven. He enters into the life of Christ, and appreciates the great sacrifice made in behalf of the sinful race.

The knowledge that comes from God is the bread of life. It is the leaves of the tree of life which are for the healing of the nations. The current of spiritual life thrills the soul as the words of Christ are believed and practiced. Thus it is that we are made one with Christ. The experience that was weak and feeble becomes strong. It is eternal life to us if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end. All truth is to be received as the life of Jesus. Truth cleanses us from all impurity, and prepares the soul for Christ's presence. Christ is formed within, the hope of glory. -- S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7, page 957

Had sinful man had access to the tree of life sin would have continued forever.

Had man, after his fall, been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life," [Genesis 3:24.] and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. -- The Great Controversy, page 533

So, Jesus gets the life from the tree and gives it to us? Or, there is no actual tree? Not sure I followed the commentary fully.

 

[RND]

RND, what do you think the tree of life is?

Just that, the "tree of life" - eternal life through Jesus Christ.

The Leaves of the Tree of Life.--[Revelation 2:7 quoted.] Must we wait until we are translated before we eat of the leaves of the tree of life? He who receives into his heart the words of Christ knows what it means to eat the leaves of the tree of life. [John 6:33-63 quoted.] When the believer, in the fellowship of the Spirit, can lay his hand upon truth itself, and appropriate it, he eats the bread that comes down from heaven. He enters into the life of Christ, and appreciates the great sacrifice made in behalf of the sinful race.

The knowledge that comes from God is the bread of life. It is the leaves of the tree of life which are for the healing of the nations. The current of spiritual life thrills the soul as the words of Christ are believed and practiced. Thus it is that we are made one with Christ. The experience that was weak and feeble becomes strong. It is eternal life to us if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end. All truth is to be received as the life of Jesus. Truth cleanses us from all impurity, and prepares the soul for Christ's presence. Christ is formed within, the hope of glory. -- S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7, page 957

Had sinful man had access to the tree of life sin would have continued forever.

Had man, after his fall, been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life," [Genesis 3:24.] and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. -- The Great Controversy, page 533

So, Jesus gets the life from the tree and gives it to us? Or, there is no actual tree? Not sure I followed the commentary fully.

Seems rather clear to me.

 

[researcher]

Seems rather clear to me.

OK, so a literal tree. I can handle that, lol. ;) ;) ;)

 

[veteran]

See Ezekiel 47, for the tree of life is not just about a single tree, but a single type of tree that is to be manifested with the great River that will flow out from God's throne.

 

[researcher]

See Ezekiel 47, for the tree of life is not just about a single tree, but a single type of tree that is to be manifested with the great River that will flow out from God's throne.

Yes. Although, I believe Jesus is the tree of life, and we are the branches of the tree. Simply put, he literally "is" the life, so, it would be hard to imagine it originating anywhere else, lol.

Joh 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. The one abiding in Me, and I in him, this one bears much fruit, because apart from Me you are not able to execute, nothing.

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Jer 11:19 But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.

Tree of life, vine of life, same thing imo, lol

 

[veteran]

Ezekiel 47 shows how we can't just spiritualize everything in His Word, even though I too agree the tree of life is symbolic of our Lord Jesus. But why would the tree of life also represent our Lord? Isn't Salvation to come through Him only, our Mediator to The Father for us? Yes. But our Lord's Salvation is to have real substance to it too, and that's why this kind of detail about the many trees of that future time is given...

Ezek 47:1-12
1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles.
4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
(KJV)

Here's the Revelation parallel to that time...

Rev 22:1-4
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and His servants shall serve Him:
4 And they shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads.
(KJV)

Even Revelation 22 shows the "tree of life" is manifested "in the midst of the street" AND "on either side of the river", like the Ezekiel 47 detail. That shows the tree of life is many trees, not just one.
.

 

[researcher]

Even Revelation 22 shows the "tree of life" is manifested "in the midst of the street" AND "on either side of the river", like the Ezekiel 47 detail. That shows the tree of life is many trees, not just one.

I think that is probably talking about people.

I believe the "city" itself is the bride, and the tree on the street is merely Jesus inside the city i.e. believers.

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

We're new Jerusalem, and, Jesus lives inside of us. :yes

Edit:

And the river of living water in the city is the Lord (or Holy Spirit) also: So that would be the Holy Spirit living in the bride, which would be people or resurrected bodies.

Jer 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

Jer 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

 

[parousia70]

The last day of what?

The last day of this present earth's history. The same earth full of sin and degradation that was present in 70AD.

The same earth full of sin and degradation that existed before the flood?

The churches listed in Rev. 2 and 3 are listed in "prophetic" order and represent church history from the beginning of the apostolic period to the present day.

Such is taught NOWHERE in scripture. NOWHERE.
It is purely an invented man made tradition.

[quote:2n9s2zss]Do you know how long a Jewish "Watch in the night" is?

From the setting sun to the rising sun.[/quote:2n9s2zss]

Incorrect.
The Jews broke up the night time into 4 seperate watches. From sundown to 9PM was 1 watch, from 9PM to midnight was one watch, from Midnight to 3 AM was one watch, and from 3am to sunrise was one watch each approx. 3 hours long:
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/j ... vision.htm

1000 years to god is like 3 hours OR a day, according to Psalm 90:4

[quote:2n9s2zss]Again, The Glorified Christ, FROM HEAVEN, WHILE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER, made a PROMISE to actual living breathing human beings who lived int he 1st century that His Thiefs coming would befall THEM in THEIR LIFETIME.

Then why did the church at Sardis continue after 70AD if they were taken like a thief in the night? [/quote:2n9s2zss]

Simple. Only those NOT watching were taken. You are smart enough to know that only those not watching would be overtaken like a theif...Even Sardis had a few names that were worthy...

You still haven't addressed the issue. Christ PROMISED the 1st century Church at Sardis that the Theifs coming would befall THEM....Although I suppose you must ignore that fact if you wish to keep your futurism.

[quote:2n9s2zss]Do you or do you not believe that Living Waters that Christ spoke of in Jn 4:10-11,7:38 are fully and completely available to you in Christ Jesus Today as He said they were, or are you still waiting for them??

The living water that Jesus spoke of has "two" applications. One is the Holy Spirit and the second, in Revelation, refers to the living waters that we will partake in throughout eternity. [/quote:2n9s2zss]

So, the living waters of the Holy Spirit we have today are somehow inferior to the ones we are waiting for?