Jesus Died For You To Be Saved

[electedbyHim]

Running is a unitarian. That means he belittles Jesus.

This explains a lot.

 

[brightfame52]

Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

So, Jesus is speaking of other shepherds, not of Himself. Afterall, He doesn't so much as lose one of them.

In the parable, does the lost Sheep remain lost ?

 

[Runningman]

Only by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There was no regeneration.

Psa 51:3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

There was repentance and forgiveness of sins, but not washing them away by the blood of the Lamb, with a new pure conscience toward God.

Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

This has been the heart's desire of the repented righteous, that could not be fuflilled unto Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day.



True. With the latter end being worse than the first.

Exactly. Every soul is still created by Christ in His image, and born into the world lightened by Him.


True. Beginning with being generated pure of heart from the womb,

Isa 44:2Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

And having done neither good nor evil,

Rom 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

And since all have sinned after being created and come into the world, beginning with Adam, all have degenerated in death and separation from God.

All believers preaching sin nature from birth, are not only ignorantly accusing Christ of creating sinners in the womb.

But some are doing so to justify their continued sinning with the flesh, by being the 'sinful' body's fault, or at least being partly responsible for what we do with the body.

Funny, while many chastice their bodies for being sinful, I never here them honoring their bodies for doing good. Why is that? The body always gets the bad rap, while it's their souls that get the good rep.




True. The regenerate/degenerate cycle of a double heart, may tempt the Lord to give us up to a reprobate mind, with no possibility of repentance, without conviction of the Spirit of grace to lead us back to God.

I've at least one believer that fully swallowed the lie of already being forgiven of present and future sins. He talked openly about fornicating again, because he knew he would already be forgiven again.

Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened...Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:...Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Hey hey we agree on pretty much all of that, with the main point being that multiple spiritual births and deaths are possible. I know this because the Bible does say that sin results is death. Pretty sure that doesn't just apply to the first and only sin someone commits. Basically, if someone can't degenerate or spiritually die again then we are back to the old license to sin conundrum which the Bible doesn't allow. This is why Jesus and the disciples not only directly taught people to stop sinning, but about what specific things to practice and what specific things to avoid.

 

[Runningman]

Running is a unitarian. That means he belittles Jesus.

I am a Unitarian but that's unfair and incorrect to say I belittle Jesus. I love Jesus and he is my Lord and Savior. I represent him the way he represented himself, as God's Son, the Messiah, the Son of Man, God's servant, and prophet; but no Jesus never said he is God so neither will I. None of this is disrespectful or diminishes Jesus rightful place as the human Messiah.

Where did you get the idea I "belittle Jesus?"

 

[electedbyHim]

I am a Unitarian but that's unfair and incorrect to say I belittle Jesus. I love Jesus and he is my Lord and Savior. I represent him the way he represented himself, as God's Son, the Messiah, the Son of Man, God's servant, and prophet; but no Jesus never said he is God so neither will I. None of this is disrespectful or diminishes Jesus rightful place as the human Messiah.

Where did you get the idea I "belittle Jesus?"

Jesus is God.

1 John says you are a liar and do not belong to Him.

1 Joh 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is God.

1 John says you are a liar and do not belong to Him.

1 Joh 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

Being the Christ isn't the same thing as being God nor do they mean the same things. Christ means someone is the anointed one. So your verses don't apply to me.

Who made Jesus both Lord and Christ? God made Jesus the Lord and Christ. Means God and Jesus aren't the same person.

Acts 2
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

p.s. - don't bite off more than you can chew with this topic. this is definitely not the right thread for it. if you want to talk about it with me, please open a different thread.

 

[electedbyHim]

Being the Christ isn't the same thing as being God nor do they mean the same things. Christ means someone is the anointed one. So your verses don't apply to me.

Who made Jesus both Lord and Christ? God made Jesus the Lord and Christ. Means God and Jesus aren't the same person.

Acts 2
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Jesus is God come in the flesh.

Only the Holy Spirit can open your eyes to that.

There are many threads on this forum about it.

But you also believe Judas was saved so there is that as well.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is God come in the flesh.

Not according to Scripture.

Only the Holy Spirit can open your eyes to that.

God doesn't contradict the Bible.

There are many threads on this forum about it.

But you also believe Judas was saved so there is that as well.

Indeed. I suppose we will each follow our convictions.

 

[electedbyHim]

Not according to Scripture.

God doesn't contradict the Bible.

Indeed. I suppose we will each follow our convictions.

Never heard of a regenerate being convicted that Jesus is not God.

 

[Runningman]

Never heard of a regenerate being convicted that Jesus is not God.

Knowledge of who Jesus is is in scripture, not much to do with being regenerate. Some people see this, others don't.

Notice the Father didn't reveal what you said. The regenerate believe what the Father revealed, like Peter and myself.

Matthew 16
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

 

[electedbyHim]

Your theology is missing the mark.

No need to have anymore conversations.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Runningman]

Your theology is missing the mark.

No need to have anymore conversations.

Grace and peace to you.

You should listen more then.

Jesus said, concerning the Father, that He is the only true God. That's where you should begin if you want the truth.

John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[KV-44-v1]

concerning the Father, that He is the only true God.

So you believe that if Jesus were God, there would be two Gods?

 

[Runningman]

So you believe that if Jesus were God, there would be two Gods?

If the Father is the only true God and then Jesus is also God then that would be a contradiction if the Father and Son are not the same person. So since the Father is not the Son then the options are that only the Father is God and Jesus isn't or the are they same person.

This basic reasoning is how some rightly become Unitarian or mistakenly become Oneness types.

The qualifier "only" true God doesn't leave a lot of room for others to be the true God does it?

If Jesus is also God then he would be a different person who is God just like the Father is a different person who is God. That would be two Gods.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Hey hey we agree on pretty much all of that, with the main point being that multiple spiritual births and deaths are possible. I know this because the Bible does say that sin results is death. Pretty sure that doesn't just apply to the first and only sin someone commits.

True. Salvation can be cast away and restored as clothing:

Rom 13:12The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Rom 13:14But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Ps 51:10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

The Scriptures are plain for anyone that does not seek to justify themselves by their own faith alone, but knows that the Father judges us all by our works, without respect of persons.

No one can take us out of the Lord's hand, but we can walk out of His presence the same as Cain. The Lord will not forsake the faithful that do not casr away His faith, but He certainly forsakes them that forsake Him.

No one can possibly be sinning against Christ, and also be justified by Christ, else Christ is the justifer of sin.

Gal 2:17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Paul is condemning the same kind of bad belief that more sinning produces more grace. If Christ is justifying sinning believers sinning, He is the minister of sin to His own body. God forbid.

Therefore, if we sin, we separate ourselves from Christ by our iniquity, the same as all transgressors, and we must be restored to His salvation and reconciled to God, the same as any man that sins:

1Jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Since we must be forgiven of sin, if we sin, then we must be reconciled to God by confession of sin. There is no salvation without forgiveness of sins.

And even if we sin 70 x 7 and repent with godly sorrow, then He is just as faithful and just to forgive us our sin, even as He commands us to forgive them that trespass against us.

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

However, we tempt the Lord's mercy and goodness by continuing to sin, so that if we begin to confess feignedly with our lips and not from the heart, then we have no forgiveness nor justification from the Lord:

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

And even as the Lord commands His faithful people to keep no company with the unrepentant, He likewise is not in their sinful company.

2 Cor{6:14} Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? {6:15} And what concord hath Christ with Belial?

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

And so, if we do sin again, and even again and again, we still have an Advocate with the Father the same as the whole world of sinners. And if we return to Him with godly sorrow, we can be restored to His grace time and time again. But, if we prseume upon His goodness with wilful sinning, and despise the conviction of His Spirit of grace without repentance, then we cannot be drawn and granted repentance unto salvation.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

This is presumptive sinning unto death, that John says not to even pray for. God is not hearing any prayers for the unrepentant, that He has given up on drawing back to His grace.

1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1Sa 16:1And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Basically, if someone can't degenerate or spiritually die again then we are back to the old license to sin conundrum which the Bible doesn't allow.

I.e. if a believer can't be condemned and separated from God by their own sin, then they must forever be 'unconditionally' reconciled to God with 'secured' eternal fellowship, even while found sinning against Christ. They walk in the light, even as they do works of darkness. They are sons of God by faith alone, and are children of the devil by works of unrighteousness.

This is the strong delusion,that doesn't ring true for any responisible adult or child.

By the power of their own faith alone, they presume upon the Lord to resurrect them from the dead unto life, and not be resurrected unto shame and contempt, the same as them that commit the same sins unto the end.

And all their doctrine is made by their own faith alone, in order to justify themselves. Their salvation and justification trusts entirely upon their doctrine alone. They truly believe that they will have power to play their doctrine card from the grave.

By their own doctrine and confession of not being justified by their works, they certainly are not justified by their works.

And what's the problem with not being justified by our works? We are not justified by our works. If we know our own works are not justified with Christ, then how much less justified with the righteous Lord and Father, that judges every man's works righteously?

bAnd worse yet, elievers who declare they are not and cannot be justified by their works, believe that is a good thing, as clothing themselves in humility.

Isa 5:20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Col 2:18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Humbleness with God is not declaring how sinful one is, and how their works cannot possibly be justified by Christ, but rather is simple humility of repenting from all sins and trespasses against God and His Christ:

Jas 4:6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

This is why Jesus and the disciples not only directly taught people to stop sinning, but about what specific things to practice and what specific things to avoid.

Just a little tweak: Jesus commands us to stop the sinning. He teaches us how by His faith and Spirit to sin not, even as He did not on earth. And of course the simplicity of the gospel of Jesus Christ, is that it begins with repenting from all our sins and trespasses to sin no more for His name's sake.

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Deu 10:16Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Acts{17:30} And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

 

[RBDERRICK]

Here is where we will see an exercise of opposing arguments from belief vs unbelief in the Scripture, the Word was God:

If the Father is the only true God and then Jesus is also God then that would be a contradiction if the Father and Son are not the same person.

This is only true, if someone is arguing from unbelief in the Word Jesus Christ coming in the flesh.

Jhn 17:3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Since the Word was God made flesh on earth, then Jesus Christ spoke from earth to God the Father in heaven, and confirmed the Father was the only true God in heaven, while the true God Jesus Christ was in the flesh on earth.

Luk 3:22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Jhn 1:33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Once the Holy Spirit of truth descended and remained upon the Son on earth, then the Father was the only true God in heaven, but the Son was not the only true God on earth.

The Spirit and the Lamb did not ascend back to heaven with the Father, until after Jesus Christ resurrected His body from the dead by the Spirit.

Jhn 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

So since the Father is not the Son then the options are that only the Father is God and Jesus isn't or the are they same person.

Or, the Son Jesus Christ is the Word come in the flesh, and He is not the same person as the Father nor the Holy Ghost.

This basic reasoning is how some rightly become Unitarian or mistakenly become Oneness types.

If Unitarian is unbelief in Jesus Christ the true God, then Unitarian is false pertaining to the faith of Jesus Christ the Son of God.

The oneness error is not just about the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, but is mostly about the Acts 2:38 water baptism schism.

The qualifier "only" true God doesn't leave a lot of room for others to be the true God does it?

Not when the true God the Father is the only One in heaven, while the true God the Son and Spirit is on earth.

If Jesus is also God

Mat 4:3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God,

Asking if Jesus is the Son of God, is asking if Jesus is God.

Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jhn 10:36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jhn 5:18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

The Jews know by Scripture that being the Son is being God, and so they had Jesus killed as a blasphemer for calling Himself the Son of God.

Mat 26:63But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Being the Christ is also being God. Denying Jesus is God, also denies He is the Christ of God.

Unbelievers in Jesus as Christ, Son, and God, both Jewish and Muslim, that also pay lip service to Jesus being a teacher and prophet from God, still believe He was worthy of death as a blasphemer cursed by God:

1Co 12:3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:

then he would be a different person who is God just like the Father is a different person who is God.

Not the same person, but no different in being God. The Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is one perfect unity of three eternal Persons being God.

The true God is the Father and the Son and the Spirit. There is not other God, that is true.

That would be two Gods.

That would be 2 Gods, if the Father and Son were 1 + 1.

Mat 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

We do not baptise in the name of the Father plus the Son plus the Holy Ghost.

The Godhead is 1 and 1 and 1, making three being God.

Eph 4:2 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all,

There is one Father, one Son, and one Holy Ghost in the Godhead, with each One and all Three being God of all.

1Co 3:19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God,

By the wisdom of unbelief, man knows not God nor the Son of God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

In the parable, does the lost Sheep remain lost ?

In that Scripture, yes.

But that's another Christ Shepherd. Yours is better than Him, because yours never loses one in the first place.

 

[brightfame52]

In that Scripture, yes.

But that's another Christ Shepherd. Yours is better than Him, because yours never loses one in the first place.

False, the Lost Sheep is found and brought to repentance Lk 15:4-7

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

To the credit of the Shepherd !

 

[RBDERRICK]

False,

So now you agree the Christ you preached, that never so much as loses a sheep, is false, and not the true Christ and Shepherd of Scripture that does have sheep lost, and then seeks to find each and every one of them.

the Lost Sheep is found and brought to repentance Lk 15:4-7

Mat 18:13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

And, If the lost sheep is found, then He rejoices over that one sheep, more than the 99 faitfhully obedient sheep.

The same as the Father that rejoices over his son that was dead and now alive, more so than the sons that sin not and remain alive in the family.