Jesus Is God: Part 1

[eddif]

My statement was this .

Verse from , Exodus 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Yes or No , did Moses see part of God ?

Was John talking about seeing God in physical or spiritual sense ? No man has the full spectrum of God's knowledge . No man has seen the full revelation of God . Jesus has declared God to us and we have not seen ( had the full revelation of God revealed to us ) God .
Spiritual sense is what I think , look at the verse before what John said about seeing God . John 1:17-18

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Or is John telling us God is invisible ? Yes I do believe God is invisible when he wants to be invisible .

So how did Moses see God if God is invisible ? Simply because Moses wanted to see him and God made it happen for Moses , was Moses a special guy or what !

View attachment 13837

hawkman
To just jump in here for a few minutes.
Colossians 1:27 kjv
27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1 Corinthians 1:30 kjv
30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Although I am aware the you in Christ and Christ in you groups do not see eye to eye let me take your backside analogy and give what I see.

If Jesus were to stand looking at the Father.
As a follower of Jesus you stand behind Jesus.
Then you step inside Jesus.
Then your eyes are where Jesus’s eyes are.
Your face is where Jesus face is .
You are face to face with Jesus, but now facing the same direction and seeing the father.
You see what Jesus sees. Christ is in you and you are in Christ.
This gives you His view of the Father
Hidden in Him it is not exactly you standing before God, but Jesus interceding for you.
You are still on earth but intercession is made on/ in your behalf in Heaven.

The only way you see into heaven is through your relationship with Christ Jesus. There are a ton of scriptures that make more sense after this little trip.

I hope the stones do not fly because of this.

eddif

 

[hawkman]

Ok you say it was Christ in his preincarnate glory and I say it was God The Father in his glory . We are so close to on the same page for a change .

No, brother, it is because of the apostasy that you are in, we are not on the same page.

You are still my brother, and we may agree on some things Biblically and even in the belief like who the 2 witnesses are even though we have credible support from scripture lending to that belief, but I am commanded from the Lord to withdraw from you to admonish you in the hope you will actually start testing the spirits by the scripture.

Praise God ! Praise God you are doing as the Lord commanded you to do ! That is what we ALL should do as Christians . I would expect you to do no less as a follower of Jesus Christ .

 

[Randy]

The risen Lord calls Yahweh His Father.
So apparently to some here Yahweh has a Father.

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

I believe Unitarians are mistaken and their theology swallows a camel.

Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

 

[JLB]

The risen Lord calls Yahweh His Father.
So apparently to some here Yahweh has a Father.

Jesus Christ is the Lord God, YHWH of the Old Testament.


Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5

• Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1:8








JLB

 

[Randy]

Jesus Christ is the Lord God, YHWH of the Old Testament.


Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5

• Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1:8








JLB

So to you Yahweh has a Father.
Col 1:19 - gifted and from the will of another.
All things were made through Him and for Him. - also speaks of another

The only other at that point in history before the world began was the Father and it was He who defined Jesus's being.

You think He lied or you think He was mistaken or you don't believe Him because someone taught you something different.

Jesus=>Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Jesus=>Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

What you should see is that it is the Father who glorifies Jesus.

“He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”

But with His firstborn He gave the name Mighty God - Col 1:19

He is Jesus's God
You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

I believe that Jesus is all that the Father is and that He is before all things except His God. I have been praying to Him all my life as I see Him that way. But to me He has always been the Son.

 

[eddif]

So to you Yahweh has a Father.
Col 1:19 - gifted and from the will of another.
All things were made through Him and for Him. - also speaks of another

The only other at that point in history before the world began was the Father and it was He who defined Jesus's being.

You think He lied or you think He was mistaken or you don't believe Him because someone taught you something different.

Jesus=>Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Jesus=>Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

What you should see is that it is the Father who glorifies Jesus.

“He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”

But with His firstborn He gave the name Mighty God - Col 1:19

He is Jesus's God
You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

I believe that Jesus is all that the Father is and that He is before all things except His God. I have been praying to Him all my life as I see Him that way. But to me He has always been the Son.

Matthew 22:43 kjv
43. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45. If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46. And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

eddif

 

[Randy]

Matthew 22:43 kjv
43. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45. If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46. And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

eddif

But He's back as He was before.
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

 

[JLB]

So to you Yahweh has a Father.

Yes.

Furthermore, God the Father named His only begotten Son after Him.


I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. John 17:11 NIV


again, as we see from the scriptures, YAHWEH the Lord God, Jesus Christ is coming with the saints on that Day.


…Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5


Do you believe it is God the Father who will come with the saints on the Day of the Lord, or the Son Jesus Christ.

again


Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” Jude 14-15


again


Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
Revelation 19:11-14





JLB

 

[Cooper]

Greetings, Hopeful.

Not sure what form you are saying He would have taken before the world began, but the primary purpose of this thread is to defend against accusations the Lord Jesus Christ is not Divine. If we are agreed on that, then my primary concern has been addressed. Yours would be a secondary discussion.

God bless, and thanks for the response : )
- H

If by 'form' you mean physical form, then Jesus had no form in the beginning, because he was the divine almighty God. It was only when he became flesh, that he took on the likeness of man and became visible.
.

 

[Cooper]

It is written..."But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matt 24:36)

God humbled himself when he took on human flesh, otherwise people would not be able to look upon his face.

 

[Butch5]

If by 'form' you mean physical form, then Jesus had no form in the beginning, because he was the divine almighty God. It was only when he became flesh, that he took on the likeness of man and became visible.
.

How can He be His own Father?

 

[Cooper]

How can He be His own Father?

Jesus is the Father come down from heaven glory in the image and likeness of men.

In the New Testament, why did Jesus Christ never say directly to his followers, "I am the true God manifested in the flesh"? Does this mean not claiming to be God in flesh is not a proof that Jesus is the true God?

Jesus directly told His disciples that He is God.
It is everywhere through the Bible, in nearly every book.

But it is told in Jewish terminology — not 21st century English terminology. To understand what Jesus meant, we have to understand how His audience understood His words.

Consider Matthew 3:17:
And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him, I am well pleased.”
This is Jesus’ introduction. God could have used any possible descriptor of Jesus at this point. So why does God the Father start by saying that Jesus is His Son?

To Western ears, being called “son” doesn’t mean much. We assume it means any male child.
In Jewish understanding, to be called “the son of” your father, you must be the same as your father. A male child must grow to the point where he is an adult, working a job, responsible for his life choices, and so forth — the same as his father is — before he can be called “the son of” his father.

Likewise, for Jesus to be called “the Son of God,” He must be the same as God. He could not be a mere righteous human king and be called “the Son of God,” because He would be the opposite of everything God is. He’d be finite, limited, a mere human.

To be called “the Son of God,” Jesus must be the same as God: eternal, the creator, uncaused, all-powerful, and so on.
That’s why the Jewish authorities tried to kill Jesus when He claimed God was His Father, making Jesus the Son of God. They heard it as the most awful blasphemy — a human claiming to be God.

This carried over into common Jewish expressions. To identify a person with a certain characteristic or fate, it was common to say they were the son of that quality.

In John 17:12, Jesus refers to Judas as “the son of destruction,” as Judas carries out his plot of betrayal against Jesus. By this, Jesus was not saying anything about Judas’ parents. Rather, He stated that Judas’ crime was so severe that he would unavoidably be destroyed because of it.

To be a son meant you were one with your father. To be the son of destruction meant that Judas was one with destruction.

Therefore, when God the Father declares Jesus to be His Son, He is declaring clearly and unequivocally that Jesus is the same as His Father.

They are one; they are both God. Or to say it more precisely:

Jesus is the same God who made the world, the same God whom Israel worshipped throughout the entire Old Testament, and He has now taken on flesh to live among and redeem His people.
This claim was unmistakable to the Jewish ear.

When Jesus stood on trial, the chief priests sought in vain for witnesses who could accuse Jesus of any wrongdoing. Yet they had no need of them. When they asked Jesus plainly, “Are you the Son of God, then?” Jesus responded, “You say rightly. I am.” They exploded with fury, declaring, “What further testimony do we need? We have heard it ourselves from his own lips!” (Luke 22:70-71).

They held no doubt about who Jesus said He was. By stating that He was the Son of God, Jesus declared Himself to be equal with God, to be the same as His Father in Heaven. The Gospel of John makes it absolutely explicit, declaring:
“This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God” (John 5:18 ESV)

The chief priests heard these words as blasphemy.
If being the Son of God meant anything other than claiming to be God, it would not have been blasphemy. Blasphemy means to speak words about God that are untrue.
If “Son of God” meant that Jesus was spiritual, or a gifted spiritual leader, or a messenger from God, or anything else other than claiming to be God, it would have been a mere disagreement. The chief priests might not have liked it or agreed with it, but it wouldn’t have been blasphemy.

Both Jesus’ followers and Jesus’ enemies realized that to be the Son of God is to be God.
Jesus could not have claimed to be God any clearer than to say that He is the only Son of God. (Kyle Davison Bair)

 

[Cooper]

Yes.

Furthermore, God the Father named His only begotten Son after Him.


I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. John 17:11 NIV


again, as we see from the scriptures, YAHWEH the Lord God, Jesus Christ is coming with the saints on that Day.


…Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5


Do you believe it is God the Father who will come with the saints on the Day of the Lord, or the Son Jesus Christ.

again


Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” Jude 14-15

again
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
Revelation 19:11-14
JLB

This is Jesus speaking in the Old Testament : -
Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. (Isa 48:16-17 KJV)

 

[JLB]

Jesus is the Father

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God the Father.

The Son (Word) became flesh, not the Father.




JLB

 

[Free]

Jesus is the Father come down from heaven glory in the image and likeness of men.

This claim is undone by the rest of your post.

In the New Testament, why did Jesus Christ never say directly to his followers, "I am the true God manifested in the flesh"? Does this mean not claiming to be God in flesh is not a proof that Jesus is the true God?

Jesus directly told His disciples that He is God.
It is everywhere through the Bible, in nearly every book.

But it is told in Jewish terminology — not 21st century English terminology. To understand what Jesus meant, we have to understand how His audience understood His words.

Consider Matthew 3:17:
And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him, I am well pleased.”
This is Jesus’ introduction. God could have used any possible descriptor of Jesus at this point. So why does God the Father start by saying that Jesus is His Son?

To Western ears, being called “son” doesn’t mean much. We assume it means any male child.
In Jewish understanding, to be called “the son of” your father, you must be the same as your father. A male child must grow to the point where he is an adult, working a job, responsible for his life choices, and so forth — the same as his father is — before he can be called “the son of” his father.

Likewise, for Jesus to be called “the Son of God,” He must be the same as God. He could not be a mere righteous human king and be called “the Son of God,” because He would be the opposite of everything God is. He’d be finite, limited, a mere human.

To be called “the Son of God,” Jesus must be the same as God: eternal, the creator, uncaused, all-powerful, and so on.
That’s why the Jewish authorities tried to kill Jesus when He claimed God was His Father, making Jesus the Son of God. They heard it as the most awful blasphemy — a human claiming to be God.

This carried over into common Jewish expressions. To identify a person with a certain characteristic or fate, it was common to say they were the son of that quality.

In John 17:12, Jesus refers to Judas as “the son of destruction,” as Judas carries out his plot of betrayal against Jesus. By this, Jesus was not saying anything about Judas’ parents. Rather, He stated that Judas’ crime was so severe that he would unavoidably be destroyed because of it.

To be a son meant you were one with your father. To be the son of destruction meant that Judas was one with destruction.

Therefore, when God the Father declares Jesus to be His Son, He is declaring clearly and unequivocally that Jesus is the same as His Father.

They are one; they are both God. Or to say it more precisely:

Jesus is the same God who made the world, the same God whom Israel worshipped throughout the entire Old Testament, and He has now taken on flesh to live among and redeem His people.
This claim was unmistakable to the Jewish ear.

When Jesus stood on trial, the chief priests sought in vain for witnesses who could accuse Jesus of any wrongdoing. Yet they had no need of them. When they asked Jesus plainly, “Are you the Son of God, then?” Jesus responded, “You say rightly. I am.” They exploded with fury, declaring, “What further testimony do we need? We have heard it ourselves from his own lips!” (Luke 22:70-71).

They held no doubt about who Jesus said He was. By stating that He was the Son of God, Jesus declared Himself to be equal with God, to be the same as His Father in Heaven. The Gospel of John makes it absolutely explicit, declaring:
“This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God” (John 5:18 ESV)

The chief priests heard these words as blasphemy.
If being the Son of God meant anything other than claiming to be God, it would not have been blasphemy. Blasphemy means to speak words about God that are untrue.
If “Son of God” meant that Jesus was spiritual, or a gifted spiritual leader, or a messenger from God, or anything else other than claiming to be God, it would have been a mere disagreement. The chief priests might not have liked it or agreed with it, but it wouldn’t have been blasphemy.

Both Jesus’ followers and Jesus’ enemies realized that to be the Son of God is to be God.
Jesus could not have claimed to be God any clearer than to say that He is the only Son of God. (Kyle Davison Bair)

Fathers and sons are the same in nature; they clearly are never the same person. No son has ever been his own father, nor any father his own son. As C. S. Lewis said, “nonsense is still nonsense, even when it is spoken of about God” (or something like that).

 

[Butch5]

Jesus is the Father come down from heaven glory in the image and likeness of men.

In the New Testament, why did Jesus Christ never say directly to his followers, "I am the true God manifested in the flesh"? Does this mean not claiming to be God in flesh is not a proof that Jesus is the true God?

Jesus directly told His disciples that He is God.
It is everywhere through the Bible, in nearly every book.

But it is told in Jewish terminology — not 21st century English terminology. To understand what Jesus meant, we have to understand how His audience understood His words.

Consider Matthew 3:17:
And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him, I am well pleased.”
This is Jesus’ introduction. God could have used any possible descriptor of Jesus at this point. So why does God the Father start by saying that Jesus is His Son?

To Western ears, being called “son” doesn’t mean much. We assume it means any male child.
In Jewish understanding, to be called “the son of” your father, you must be the same as your father. A male child must grow to the point where he is an adult, working a job, responsible for his life choices, and so forth — the same as his father is — before he can be called “the son of” his father.

Likewise, for Jesus to be called “the Son of God,” He must be the same as God. He could not be a mere righteous human king and be called “the Son of God,” because He would be the opposite of everything God is. He’d be finite, limited, a mere human.

To be called “the Son of God,” Jesus must be the same as God: eternal, the creator, uncaused, all-powerful, and so on.
That’s why the Jewish authorities tried to kill Jesus when He claimed God was His Father, making Jesus the Son of God. They heard it as the most awful blasphemy — a human claiming to be God.

This carried over into common Jewish expressions. To identify a person with a certain characteristic or fate, it was common to say they were the son of that quality.

In John 17:12, Jesus refers to Judas as “the son of destruction,” as Judas carries out his plot of betrayal against Jesus. By this, Jesus was not saying anything about Judas’ parents. Rather, He stated that Judas’ crime was so severe that he would unavoidably be destroyed because of it.

To be a son meant you were one with your father. To be the son of destruction meant that Judas was one with destruction.

Therefore, when God the Father declares Jesus to be His Son, He is declaring clearly and unequivocally that Jesus is the same as His Father.

They are one; they are both God. Or to say it more precisely:

Jesus is the same God who made the world, the same God whom Israel worshipped throughout the entire Old Testament, and He has now taken on flesh to live among and redeem His people.
This claim was unmistakable to the Jewish ear.

When Jesus stood on trial, the chief priests sought in vain for witnesses who could accuse Jesus of any wrongdoing. Yet they had no need of them. When they asked Jesus plainly, “Are you the Son of God, then?” Jesus responded, “You say rightly. I am.” They exploded with fury, declaring, “What further testimony do we need? We have heard it ourselves from his own lips!” (Luke 22:70-71).

They held no doubt about who Jesus said He was. By stating that He was the Son of God, Jesus declared Himself to be equal with God, to be the same as His Father in Heaven. The Gospel of John makes it absolutely explicit, declaring:
“This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God” (John 5:18 ESV)

The chief priests heard these words as blasphemy.
If being the Son of God meant anything other than claiming to be God, it would not have been blasphemy. Blasphemy means to speak words about God that are untrue.
If “Son of God” meant that Jesus was spiritual, or a gifted spiritual leader, or a messenger from God, or anything else other than claiming to be God, it would have been a mere disagreement. The chief priests might not have liked it or agreed with it, but it wouldn’t have been blasphemy.

Both Jesus’ followers and Jesus’ enemies realized that to be the Son of God is to be God.
Jesus could not have claimed to be God any clearer than to say that He is the only Son of God. (Kyle Davison Bair)

I'm sorry but that doesn't follow. If I claim to be the son of someone else, I am not that someone else. The very fact that He claimed to be the Son of God shows that He was not the one He was calling God. If Jesus was the Father, then He wasn't the Son of God He would be God the Father. The logic doesn't work.

However, we know from Scripture beyond doubt that Jesus was not the Father. Paul tells us that Jesus was the first born of all creation. Being born indicates that one didn't exist prior to that birth. Also, Paul tells us that when Jesus returns He will show who is "the only" Potentate. The King of Kings and Lord of Lords, whom "no man has seen nor can see". So, we're told that no one can see the Father. Yet, we know that people have and can see Jesus. Thus, there is no possible way that Jesus can be the Father.

 

[Free]

Being born indicates that one didn't exist prior to that birth.

Your post is good except for this. “Firstborn” has other meanings, such as “preeminence,” which is what it primarily means here. It simply cannot mean the Christ didn’t exist prior to birth or it would contradict verses 16 and 17, not to mention John 1:1-3,18, among others.

 

[Butch5]

Your post is good except for this. “Firstborn” has other meanings, such as “preeminence,” which is what it primarily means here. It simply cannot mean the Christ didn’t exist prior to birth or it would contradict verses 16 and 17, not to mention John 1:1-3,18, among others.

It does have the meaning of preeminence. But, who has preeminence? Is it not the firstborn?

It doesn't contradict any of those passages. It's not talking about His human birth. It's about His coming forth from the Father before creation.

 

[Cooper]

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God the Father.

The Son (Word) became flesh, not the Father.




JLB

Did you not read my previous post where back in Israel, "Son of" means "same as?"

For someone to become the Son, we need to ask ourselves what or who was he before he became the Son.
.

 

[Cooper]

I'm sorry but that doesn't follow. If I claim to be the son of someone else, I am not that someone else. The very fact that He claimed to be the Son of God shows that He was not the one He was calling God. If Jesus was the Father, then He wasn't the Son of God He would be God the Father. The logic doesn't work.

However, we know from Scripture beyond doubt that Jesus was not the Father. Paul tells us that Jesus was the first born of all creation. Being born indicates that one didn't exist prior to that birth. Also, Paul tells us that when Jesus returns He will show who is "the only" Potentate. The King of Kings and Lord of Lords, whom "no man has seen nor can see". So, we're told that no one can see the Father. Yet, we know that people have and can see Jesus. Thus, there is no possible way that Jesus can be the Father.

Who is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings according to Isaiah nine?
.