Jesus Is God: Part 1

[for_his_glory]

So that account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus was a true story. Luke 16:20-31 as I apply Abraham's bosom to be the same as Paradise.

Dead is dead as in story Jesus taught in the parable of the rich man and the beggar as there are no conversation between the dead in hell/grave/pit. Parables are only fictional stories to create illustrations to make a point. Not sure why you can not understand that. In Matthew 13 Jesus also explains these illustrations, so no, they are nothing more than just stories to prove a point.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

On another point, please read 2 Corinthians 5:5-9 as absent from the body and present with the Lord means that we are no longer in the flesh, but now walking in the Spirit having fellowship with God while still being here on earth.

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

 

[Golgotha]

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man can't be a true story. Dead people can't speak.

Why Jesus said it? In context with the other verses before that story or afterwards in the next chapter, whatever moral you may derive from it is lost. It stands alone.

As I pointed out above, no one goes to Heaven. Paradise is Eden in the restored earth. Abraham's bosom is a man's chest. Abraham's bosom is spoken of elsewhere in Scripture.

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 again.

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)

Hagar was in Abraham's bosom. She wasn't dead and she wasn't somewhere down in the earth. She was intimate with him. John leaned on Jesus' bosom. Jesus is in the bosom of the Father. None of these bosoms are located down in the earth. Think about it, if there was a place down in the earth, why in the world would it be called Abraham's bosom?

Jesus called that place where Abraham was comforting the beggar Lazarus at. He said it.

They're talking about unity. A man and woman can't be unified if one is committing adultery. However, take notice of what Paul said in the verse you quoted. He said Christ is the savior of the body. He didn't say He was the savior of the spirit.

Not like our bodies are going to Heaven without our spirits. 1 Corinthians 3:15 talks about the spirit is saved when in context in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 when God judges that believer in that day for defiling the temple of God which is his physical body for why he will die, in that day of fire but his spirit is saved. Luke 12:40-49 & John 15:1-8

That's a logical contradiction.

Son of a human is human and so if someone refers to his father in the family, he is referring to someone greater than himself in authority over him. That does not negate that the son is not human at all. The son is as his father, but the father's will be done.

 

[Golgotha]

But Samuel wasn't a spirit. As I said, the passage doesn't even mention spirit. Whatever the woman saw, she said it was gods. As Chronicles says, Saul inquired of a familiar spirit, a demon.

for_his_glory

In context... Saul inquired of a medium.

1 Samuel 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

Now if he was deceived, it would not be written in scripture that it was Samuel speaking to Saul.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

Did not what Samuel had said from the Lord to Saul came true regarding verse 19?

So not a demon.

 

[Golgotha]

You're welcome! It's my contention that Jesus was born of the Father before all creation.

Clarity is still needed.

Are you saying Jesus was created as in born before creation?

Better yet, are you saying Jesus never existed until He was born?

 

[for_his_glory]

Which hints us that Enoch & Elijah were taken into the upper atmosphere and are travelling through time to be dropped off as those 2 witnesses for the beginning of the great tribulation until they die halfway through, get resurrected, and commanded to come up hither hence another rapture even but just for those 2.

Who teaches you these things.

Enoch, Moses, Abraham and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth. They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40 It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

I could explain this further, but we have gone astray from the topic of the OP. Again, if you would like to discuss this further you can make a thread and tag me into it.


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[Golgotha]

Dead is dead as in story Jesus taught in the parable of the rich man and the beggar as there are no conversation between the dead in hell/grave/pit. Parables are only fictional stories to create illustrations to make a point. Not sure why you can not understand that. In Matthew 13 Jesus also explains these illustrations, so no, they are nothing more than just stories to prove a point.

Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Again at the time Jesus had said that, it was true, but since His ascension, is why those who die in the great tribulation are in Heaven as all unresurrected but saved saints are for missing out the rapture event for not abiding in Him as His disciples.

Revelation 6: 8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They shall be resurrected after the great tribulation to serve the King of kings on earth.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

On another point, please read 2 Corinthians 5:5-9 as absent from the body and present with the Lord means that we are no longer in the flesh, but now walking in the Spirit having fellowship with God while still being here on earth.

Read verse 8 with verse 6 and discern.

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

This is referring to being absent from the Lord Jesus Christ that we do not see yet but when we die, we will in Heaven.

He is in us, 2 Corinthians 13:5 & is with us always Matthew 28:20 for why in context of your reference is about being absent from seeing Him but when we die, we will see Him in Heaven.

 

[Golgotha]

Who teaches you these things.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Enoch, Moses, Abraham and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth. They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40 It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

I could explain this further, but we have gone astray from the topic of the OP. Again, if you would like to discuss this further you can make a thread and tag me into it.​

Just meaning to refer that there are 3 kinds of heavens as you pointed out the third heaven is God's throne; there is the upper atmosphere and then outer space and your third heaven where at that time no man had ascended up to which is the third heaven.

Only Enoch & Elijah has been taken up into heaven which is not the third Heaven.

Hopefully post #306 answered the inquiry as to where spirits go now when we die.

 

[hawkman]

That was for that moment with Moses in seeing His glory per verse 18 above, but having been a murderer and therefore may be the reason why he should not or could not see His face in His glory without causing his death per verse 20. Sin separates us from God and so to reveal His glory as God, Moses may not be able to survive it.

God The Father gave the reason Moses could not see His face , it would mean death for Moses . Even with what small part of God that Moses saw it caused Moses face to shine to the point that the Israelites could not look at Moses's face when Moses came down from the mount .
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

However, Abraham had seen the Lord and provided a meal & drink for Him as He did eat & drank in Genesis 18:1-15 when "Jesus" as that Lord then said Sara would have a son.

Jacob wrestled with the Lord and had seen His face in Genesis 32:24-30

Abraham and Jacob saw Christ preincarnate , yes .

The truth is that man has seen God in the O.T. and it was not the Father but the Son as God.

So Who's "back parts" did Moses see on the mount ? I say the Father .

 

[hawkman]

How do you reconcile your statement with John's? John said no man has seen God at any time. He didn't no man has seen God's face. He said no man has seen God at any time. Paul said that God was invisible, how have men seen Him?

Are you saying since Moses did not see God's face Moses did not see God ? Because Moses did see parts of God .
Exodus 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

 

[Butch5]

Are you saying since Moses did not see God's face Moses did not see God ? Because Moses did see parts of God .
Exodus 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

I'm saying, John said, no man has seen God at any time. How do you reconcile that with your statement? John said no man has seen God, you say they have.

 

[hawkman]

I'm saying, John said, no man has seen God at any time. How do you reconcile that with your statement? John said no man has seen God, you say they have.

My statement was this .

Parts of God have been seen , but not his face . Exodus 33

Verse from , Exodus 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Yes or No , did Moses see part of God ?

Was John talking about seeing God in physical or spiritual sense ? No man has the full spectrum of God's knowledge . No man has seen the full revelation of God . Jesus has declared God to us and we have not seen ( had the full revelation of God revealed to us ) God .
Spiritual sense is what I think , look at the verse before what John said about seeing God . John 1:17-18

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Or is John telling us God is invisible ? Yes I do believe God is invisible when he wants to be invisible .

So how did Moses see God if God is invisible ? Simply because Moses wanted to see him and God made it happen for Moses , was Moses a special guy or what !

 

[Golgotha]

God The Father gave the reason Moses could not see His face , it would mean death for Moses . Even with what small part of God that Moses saw it caused Moses face to shine to the point that the Israelites could not look at Moses's face when Moses came down from the mount .
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

But in context, Abraham's request was to see His glory.

Exodus 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Abraham and Jacob saw Christ preincarnate , yes .


So Who's "back parts" did Moses see on the mount ? I say the Father .

But Jesus said this:

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So Moses had seen the preincarnate Christ too, but in seeing Him in His glory, he could not see His face & lived.

 

[for_his_glory]

Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Again at the time Jesus had said that, it was true, but since His ascension, is why those who die in the great tribulation are in Heaven as all unresurrected but saved saints are for missing out the rapture event for not abiding in Him as His disciples.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is only one resurrection when Christ returns on the last day after the seven trumpets of God's great wrath, but two final destinations.

Again at the time Jesus had said that, it was true, but since His ascension, is why those who die in the great tribulation are in Heaven as all unresurrected but saved saints are for missing out the rapture event for not abiding in Him as His disciples.

The word of God has never changed since the ascension of Christ who now sits at the right hand of the Father in the third heaven. If Jesus said it, I believe it.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is referring to being absent from the Lord Jesus Christ that we do not see yet but when we die, we will in Heaven.

He is in us, 2 Corinthians 13:5 & is with us always Matthew 28:20 for why in context of your reference is about being absent from seeing Him but when we die, we will see Him in Heaven.

The physical body is the house to the sin nature that dwells in it and if we are not walking in the Spirit then we are walking in the flesh being absent from fellowshipping with the Lord like Adam did when he fell to the lust of the flesh as he disobeyed God's command not to eat of that tree.


Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

[for_his_glory]

Just meaning to refer that there are 3 kinds of heavens as you pointed out the third heaven is God's throne; there is the upper atmosphere and then outer space and your third heaven where at that time no man had ascended up to which is the third heaven.

Only Enoch & Elijah has been taken up into heaven which is not the third Heaven.

Do you agree then that Enoch and Elijah are asleep (not talking about soul sleep) in their grave awaiting to be risen when Christ returns on the last day?

 

[for_his_glory]

There are three heavens:

First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29).
The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.

Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God (John 3:13).


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[Golgotha]

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The tribulation of those days is now when you take into context of Matthew 24:23-28.

Matthew 24:29-31 is explaining Matthew 24:27-28 regarding the rapture event as happening after the falling away from the faith in Matthew 24:23-26 prophesied in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 & 2 Timothy 4:1-2

Believers are going places where the say the Spirit of Christ aka the Holy Spirit is moving here or there, sowing great signs & wonder if possible to deceive the very elect Matthew 24:24. I apply that to Toronto's Blessings, Pensacola's Outpouring, Holy Laughter movement, 'slain in the spirit", & even Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade where announcing the Holy Spirit falling on believers to make them fall backwards in supposedly bringing about this healing or even casting out of devils and yet Matthew 7:21-23 has this report of professing believers doing those things but were workers of iniquity as they were falling per Matthew 7:24-27

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is only one resurrection when Christ returns on the last day after the seven trumpets of God's great wrath, but two final destinations.

But reread verse 29 again, because there is a resurrection at the Great White Throne Judgement after Satan is released from the pit for a thousand years to stage a last rebellion for a small season & Satan gets defeated for the last time. Revelation 20:7-15

So is there really only one resurrection? And yet there is more to take pause for.

Because you have the two witnesses being taken up in the middle of the great tribulation; a separate rapture event. Revelation 11:3-12 see verse 12.

Then you have the whole point for the Book of Revelations is warning the churches to be ready or else be cast into the great tribulation per Revelation 2:18-25. Two out of the 7 churches were good churches for why the Lord exhorted them to hold fast so they can escape the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth in Revelation 3:7-11 That hour of temptation is to take the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive in the coming new world order which all on the earth will be tempted to do.

Hence, they are not on that earth but raptured before the great tribulation had come. This ties in with the warning to repent or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation.

I believe John 5:28-29 is about ALL those who hear His voice, but depends where they are in His kingdom in the order to be raised up; as Christ's the firstfruits are raptured up as that resurrection of life as those that are Christ's at His coming are resurrected up to be received as vessels unto honor as that resurrection of damnation are the vessels unto dishonor, the vessels of wood & of earth, that are still in His House.

2 Timothy 2:18-21 Note verse 20 for the two kinds in His House and how one defers from the vessels unto dishonor by departing from iniquity.

Then see the order for how those resurrections will come about in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 So all believers will hear His voice as all will be raised up in the last day, but in the order for whom the Lord calls in their last day to be raised up in. John 6:40

It is like taking verses without aligning with the other truth in His words like:

1 Corinthians 8:But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Some believes take that to deny the deity of Jesus Christ as if only God the Father is God, but you & I know better.

So we have to weigh how you apply John 5:28-29 to really mean, when we align it with the truths in His words with other scripture since there is more than one resurrection, and even more than one rapture event since it involves the two witnesses after that initial rapture event before the coming great tribulation.

Those that are Christ's at His coming are resurrected but after the world's armies are defeated Zechariah 14:1-5 & Satan is in the pit for a thousand years Revelation 20:1-6. That means they are not meeting the Lord in the air as the Bridegroom, but on earth as the King of kings.

I thank the Lord that I see all the truths in His words; and so it will have to be the same for you too.

 

[Golgotha]

Do you agree then that Enoch and Elijah are asleep (not talking about soul sleep) in their grave awaiting to be risen when Christ returns on the last day?

I disagree, only because each were taken up to the "heaven" by the Lord & seen no more. They had not died nor was it ever written that they were buried.

Take Elijah for an example as scripture written his departure with no evidence.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven...

16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the Lord hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send. 17 And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not. 18 And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not?

And since they were not taken up to God's throne, that third heaven, is because Philip can be transported from one place to another;

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

This is why I believe Enoch & Elijah are those 2 witnesses for the first half of the great tribulation in Jerusalem. I believe God will drop them off in the near future for why and how He has taken them into the heavens as they are travelling thru time.

Time will tell, but I am hoping in the Lord I will be ready as found abiding in Him and willing to go to have me raptured before the great tribulation, and so I will not see that, but since the two will be raptured half way thru the great tribulation, I will know for sure who those 2 witnesses are, God be willing, by the Bridegroom bringing me Home at the first rapture event.

 

[hawkman]

But in context, Abraham's request was to see His glory.

Exodus 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

I can see where " back parts " could be the back parts of God's glory .

Can you imagine what it was like when Moses did see what ever he did see on the mount ! Very hard to imagine actually . But it was glorious !

But Jesus said this:

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So Moses had seen the preincarnate Christ too, but in seeing Him in His glory, he could not see His face & lived.

Ok you say it was Christ in his preincarnate glory and I say it was God The Father in his glory . We are so close to on the same page for a change .

 

[hawkman]

Do you agree then that Enoch and Elijah are asleep (not talking about soul sleep) in their grave awaiting to be risen when Christ returns on the last day?

This is why I believe Enoch & Elijah are those 2 witnesses for the first half of the great tribulation in Jerusalem. I believe God will drop them off in the near future for why and how He has taken them into the heavens as they are travelling thru time.

What Golgotha is saying here about Enoch and Elijah being the witnesses is some thing I believe too . One other reason is this verse below .

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

God took Enoch and Elijah and they have not died yet but they must die at sometime . This is my worth and not something I am going to push as the final answer to who the two witnesses are .

 

[Golgotha]

Ok you say it was Christ in his preincarnate glory and I say it was God The Father in his glory . We are so close to on the same page for a change .

No, brother, it is because of the apostasy that you are in, we are not on the same page.

You are still my brother, and we may agree on some things Biblically and even in the belief like who the 2 witnesses are even though we have credible support from scripture lending to that belief, but I am commanded from the Lord to withdraw from you to admonish you in the hope you will actually start testing the spirits by the scripture.

2 Thessalonians 3:1-15 I do need His help to do that while in this forum with you.

I do not want to put you on ignore because I hope the Lord will recover you from that snare of the devil of thinking tongues are for private use. 2 Timothy 2:15-16 & 2 Timothy 2:24-26

It bothers me that you are still not testing the spirits when you feel what you believe is the Holy Spirit, but it is not when it is the same way the world feels for spirits in receiving them ( John 14:16-17 ), when all what that spirit is doing is taking your eyes & focus off of the Son in that moment but the real indwelling Holy Ghost would never do that, but the spirit of the antichrist would.

Jesus is God and He is the only way for how we come to God the Father by John 14:6

The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, and although God, He is not Another Go To God to come to the Father by. John 10:1-9 And that is because there are other spirits in the world & God the Father is calling those sinners away from that rudiment & those spirits and their pagan supernatural tongue to a personal reconcile relationship with the Father thru the Son to be praying normally to give the Father thanks in Jesus's name for known answers to prayers. John 14:13-14

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

You have known how supposedly the Holy Spirit interrupts someone normal praying time and yet we are instructed to pray without ceasing. So how can that be if the real Holy Spirit really interrupts them? But as it is, it will take a miracle from the Lord to recover you from his snare of the devil. I'll be praying for you, brother.

I have digress but this is written.

2 Timothy 4:1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

That is all I am going to say in regards to your comment in this thread.