Jesus Is God: Part 1

[Randy]

He became the Son when he came down from heaven's glory. In Hebrews 1:8 we read : -
But of the Son, he says, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous sceptre is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”
(Notice, God the Father calls His Son “God.” Father and Son are One. If in the days of Christ, people could have seen through the flesh of Jesus, they would have seen the Father's Spirit in Jesus.)

First there is only one God the Father. Yahweh doesn't have a daddy.
The Son who was, Jesus's spirit, was in the body prepared for Him and the Father was living in Him. They are one.

I know Jesus has a throne. The Father gave Him that throne. He also has a place on His Fathers throne.

As I stated the Father gave Jesus the name mighty God so He would call His Son God. Col 1:19

Jesus the Son is all that the Father is. Col 1:19
He is before all things except His God.
All things were made through Him and for Him.
He is the Father's Christ.
The Father, at His expressed will and pleasure, has chosen to reconcile things whether in heaven or earth to Himself
by making peace through the shed blood of Christ on the cross.
God so loved the world...

The risen and reinstated Lord in His Former glory calls the Father His God and His Father. And again it is held there is only one God.

Furthermore Jesus testifies to the truth. The Father is the "only" true God and "His" God.

 

[JLB]

Yahweh doesn't have a daddy.

Did YHWH the Lord God create the heavens and the earth?


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:-10




JLB

 

[Randy]

Did YHWH the Lord God create the heavens and the earth?


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:-10




JLB

God created through Jesus.
Paul- all things were created through Him and for Him.
Hebrews
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

So by Jesus all things were created.

All things are from the Father given through the Son
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus is Deity. The Father is Deity. There is ONE God. Work it out. I will give you a clue.

JESUS IS THE ONE GOD WITH US, CLOTHED IN FLESH.

I have worked it out. I've worked it out in a way that is logical and doesn't overturn common sense. It's pretty obvious that one cannot be their own father or son. Thus, your claim denies common sense and logic. I believe it is you who needs to work it out. As I've pointed out several times, Jesus can be seen, the Father can't be, thus they are not the same.

Why are you clinging to a fifth century doctrine created by Christians who misunderstood the Scriptures? There is one God and Paul said that that one God is the Father.

1 Corinthians 8:4–6 (KJV 1900): As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Paul, writing to the Christians in Corinth, states plainly that to Christians there is one God and that one God is the Father.

The early Christians believed the same thing. The Nicene Creed almost quotes Paul verbatim when it says, "we believe in one God, the Father". So, the Bible and history show us that the one God is the Father and Jesus is not Him.

 

[Butch5]

The use of firstborn can mean preeminence without the referent having actually been born (Psalms 89:27; Jer 31:9). It is about the sovereignty of Christ, hence what is in the verses that follow.


I suppose one could make the argument that it refers to Jesus being eternally begotten, and so speaks of his eternal preexistence. What we cannot say is that there was a time when the Son did not exist. If he came into being, two insurmountable problems arise: 1) he is a mere creature and 2) that would be the beginning of time and creation. Both of those problems would contradict the rest is the passage as well as John 1:1-18 and others.

One can make that claim, however, Jesus is the first born. Th as ts why He has preeminence.

Eternally begotten is a logical contradiction. Begotten indicates a point in time. Eternal doesn't. We can say there was a time when the Son didn't exist. If He always existed then He wasn't begotten. Yet, Jesus Himself states that He came out of the Father. That is begotten. If He always existed then He is not a Son. A son by definition is the offspring of the Father. I'm not sure how you see insurmountable problems. Everything fits the Scriptures nicely

 

[232 Ben Yissachar]

Isaiah 44:24​

Thus saith YHWH, thy Redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am YHWH that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens Alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by Myself;

Speaking of YESHUA

John 1:3​

All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:16​

For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:

 

[JLB]

God created through Jesus.
Paul- all things were created through Him and for Him.
Hebrews
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

So by Jesus all things were created.

All things are from the Father given through the Son
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The Son created according to the will of the Father.


Please read these words of scripture —

• But to the Son He says:… You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.


again

• For by Him all things were created

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16




JLB

 

[Cooper]

No sir.

Jesus was begotten before creation.

• The Son created the heavens and the earth.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

• The Son appeared to Abraham.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1

• The Son appeared to Moses.

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• The Son got in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego.

“Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” Daniel 3:25

• The Son spoke through the mouth of the prophets.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11




All these things were done by the Son, before He became flesh.






JLB

Thank you. Good post.

 

[Free]

One can make that claim, however, Jesus is the first born. Th as ts why He has preeminence.

He is the firstborn, as the Bible tells us, but the whole point is, that does it mean in that verse? Words usually have multiple meanings and it is context that determines the meaning in a particular verse. Again, if firstborn literally means the Jesus was born, then that contradicts the rest of the passage, among others.

Eternally begotten is a logical contradiction.

Not necessarily.

Begotten indicates a point in time.

Not necessarily; certainly not in reference to Christ. In reference to the Son, begotten (monogenes) refers to his being the only Son of the Father (all nine references in the NT mean the same). It speaks to the unique relationship between the Son and the Father and has nothing to do with begetting or coming into being.

Eternal doesn't. We can say there was a time when the Son didn't exist. If He always existed then He wasn't begotten. Yet, Jesus Himself states that He came out of the Father. That is begotten.

Then, as per your position, Jesus is the first creature and his coming into existence is the beginning of creation. This contradicts many instances of Scripture, including the very passage in question.

If He always existed then He is not a Son. A son by definition is the offspring of the Father.

Is that so? What of a man that adopts a son or raises a child that is otherwise not his own as if it was his own? Would he or the child, once grown, deny that the man is his or her father?

This speaks to the type or quality of relationship.

I'm not sure how you see insurmountable problems. Everything fits the Scriptures nicely

They are insurmountable. Everything fits from your position if we ignore the meanings of words and context.

 

[Randy]

The Son created according to the will of the Father.


Please read these words of scripture —

• But to the Son He says:… You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.


again

• For by Him all things were created

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16




JLB

Well I would see it as the Father in Him doing His work. Col 1:19 As in God created through Jesus. So it is stated by Jesus things were created. Jesus does nothing apart from the Father.

Rev 4:11
“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”

I also put the most weight on what Jesus states,
The Father is the only true God and His God.

 

[Butch5]

God is Omnipresent in heaven, and on earth in the likeness of man. Do you know what omnipresent means?

As I pointed out, the Yahweh on earth was with Abraham. He could be seen. The Father cannot be seen. Thus, they are not the same. However you want to use the word omnipresent it cannot be used to say they are the same being. They are clearly different as Scriputre has shown in many places

 

[Cooper]

I have worked it out. I've worked it out in a way that is logical and doesn't overturn common sense. It's pretty obvious that one cannot be their own father or son. Thus, your claim denies common sense and logic. I believe it is you who needs to work it out. As I've pointed out several times, Jesus can be seen, the Father can't be, thus they are not the same.

Why are you clinging to a fifth century doctrine created by Christians who misunderstood the Scriptures? There is one God and Paul said that that one God is the Father.

1 Corinthians 8:4–6 (KJV 1900): As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Paul, writing to the Christians in Corinth, states plainly that to Christians there is one God and that one God is the Father.

The early Christians believed the same thing. The Nicene Creed almost quotes Paul verbatim when it says, "we believe in one God, the Father". So, the Bible and history show us that the one God is the Father and Jesus is not Him.

Are you talking about Mary's child, because I'm talking about Genesis 1:1.
.

 

[Butch5]

He is the firstborn, as the Bible tells us, but the whole point is, that does it mean in that verse? Words usually have multiple meanings and it is context that determines the meaning in a particular verse. Again, if firstborn literally means the Jesus was born, then that contradicts the rest of the passage, among others.

I agree context determines the meaning. Again, who is it that has preeminence?

Not necessarily.

Please explain.

Not necessarily; certainly not in reference to Christ. In reference to the Son, begotten (monogenes) refers to his being the only Son of the Father (all nine references in the NT mean the same). It speaks to the unique relationship between the Son and the Father and has nothing to do with begetting or coming into being.

Please explain this unique relationship.

Then, as per your position, Jesus is the first creature and his coming into existence is the beginning of creation. This contradicts many instances of Scripture, including the very passage in question.

Not the first creature. Begotten. As I said, Jesus Himself said He came out of the Father. If that isn't begotten, what is it?

Again, you say it contradicts Scripture, please explain. I don't see any contradiction

Is that so? What of a man that adopts a son or raises a child that is otherwise not his own as if it was his own? Would he or the child, once grown, deny that the man is his or her father?

This speaks to the type or quality of relationship.

An adopted child is not the offspring. If it speaks of the quality of the relationship please explain.

They are insurmountable. Everything fits from your position if we ignore the meanings of words and context.

You've said this already. Please explain how.

 

[Butch5]

Are you talking about Mary's child, because I'm talking about Genesis 1:1.
.

No, I'm not talking about Mary's child

 

[Butch5]

The omnipresent God raised God on earth from the dead.

You've got problem, either they aren't the same or He wasn't dead. The dead cannot raise the dead

 

[232 Ben Yissachar]

Psalms 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and ye perish from The Way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him.

The word translated as Son is Bar / Aramaic

Just like in Bar Mitzvah


Pictographically and Etymologically in order the first Six letters of the Scriptures.

The First three letters of the Bible

Bet Resh Aleph

Bet - House/ Family - Pictographically

Resh - First ( Bet+Resh) Spells Bar - Son

Aleph - Power (Bet+Resh+Aleph) Created - The second word in the scriptures

The First Three letters say

House/Family Son Created

The Last three

The letter Shin has multiple meanings.

Sharp - Press and the number Two - etymology to pierce

Yad is an Arm Pictographically

Taw - Ancient Pictograph is "a Cross"

Shin+Yad = Gift or Present

Shin+Yad+Taw = Appointed

House/Family Son Created - pierced pressed two Arm Gift Appointed Cross


Shay: Gift / Present H7862

Shyt: Appointed

Aleph Taw = The First and Last letters of the Hebrew Alphabet


Bare'shyt

Bet - Bar / Son

Resh - Ruach / Spirit

Aleph AB / Father

Pictographically

YHWH = Arm Behold Nail Behold

 

[Butch5]

The only way YOUR theology can be reconciled is if the ONE God coexists in heaven and on earth, in spirit and in the flesh.

Not at all. Too many don't understand what the word God means and as such equivocate.

 

[Randy]

You've got problem, either they aren't the same or He wasn't dead. The dead cannot raise the dead

The Spirit of God acts on Jesus's will. He has that authority. So both can be said. Jesus raised Himself from the dead at the will and command of the Father and God raised Jesus from the dead for it was by His Spirit. Man can kill the body but not the spirit or soul. Jesus was alive in the spirit and never dies. And alive in the spirit He preached to the spirits in prison.

The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

 

[Randy]

In regard to creation. We do not state Jesus created not the Father. We do not state the Father created not Jesus.
It is stated the Father created by or through Jesus.

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,

 

[JLB]

Jesus does nothing apart from the Father.

AGREED!