Jesus Is God: Part 1

[JLB]

Jesus was not "chosen" to do anything. He was the Word, the Son of God, who purposefully and willfully came to earth, taking on human flesh, as a part of God's eternal plan of redemption through penal substitutionary atonement. His primary purpose was to die for our sins in our place.

I agree with much of what you have said here.

However I believe Jesus is called the Elect One.

So in that sense I believe He was chosen.

I also believe those who are in Christ are the elect, since He Himself is called the Elect One.


“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
Thus says God the LORD,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
Isaiah 42:1-5


Here we see the Spirit of Christ, referring to the Man Jesus Christ as the Elect One.

So I agree with you that God the Son (The Spirit of Christ) the Eternal Word, was not chosen for anything.


However, the Man Jesus Christ was indeed called the Elect One, and was chosen to bring salvation to the world.





JLB

 

[JLB]

It is also written God spoke to us by His Son. According to Jesus's own testimony it was the Father IN Him doing HIS work.

Yes agreed.

God worked through the Man Jesus Christ by His Spirit.

Jesus Christ, God the Son, was manifested in the flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

He became The Man Jesus Christ, whom God the Father worked through.


For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men,
the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5

 

[leroy]

I agree with much of what you have said here.

However I believe Jesus is called the Elect One.

So in that sense I believe He was chosen.

I also believe those who are in Christ are the elect, since He Himself is called the Elect One.


“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
Thus says God the LORD,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
Isaiah 42:1-5


Here we see the Spirit of Christ, referring to the Man Jesus Christ as the Elect One.

So I agree with you that God the Son (The Spirit of Christ) the Eternal Word, was not chosen for anything.


However, the Man Jesus Christ was indeed called the Elect One, and was chosen to bring salvation to the world.





JLB

Thank you for sharing this reply. I had not considered it before

 

[Free]

I agree with much of what you have said here.

However I believe Jesus is called the Elect One.

So in that sense I believe He was chosen.

I also believe those who are in Christ are the elect, since He Himself is called the Elect One.


“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
Thus says God the LORD,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
Isaiah 42:1-5


Here we see the Spirit of Christ, referring to the Man Jesus Christ as the Elect One.

So I agree with you that God the Son (The Spirit of Christ) the Eternal Word, was not chosen for anything.


However, the Man Jesus Christ was indeed called the Elect One, and was chosen to bring salvation to the world.

Yes, but what I was addressing was this: "It seems so clear to see that Jesus was a member of the human family and was chosen." My point is that Jesus was not just a human who was then chosen and the Son of God entered him, or something like that, but rather that he was the God-man from conception; two natures in one person.

 

[JLB]

My point is that Jesus was not just a human who was then chosen and the Son of God entered him, or something like that, but rather that he was the God-man from conception; two natures in one person.

 

[Free]

What do you understand this to mean? "...made of the seed of David according to the flesh." Romans 1:3

That the human part of him was descended from the lineage of David.

What do you understand this to mean? "...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev. 13:8

That it was God's plan since the foundation of the world to send his Son to die for our sins.

"two persons, each with their own nature," Well, it is said 'fully God and fully man' That is 2 fully's. 200%. Two beings, one divine one human. If the Son can live in us what is unacceptable of the Son living in Mary's son. I think it is a distinction without a difference.

It's a huge difference, which is why that--Jesus was merely a man possessed by the Son--has long been rejected as heresy (Nestorianism). We must stick to what the Bible says, which is that the Son left heaven and came to earth in the form of a human, being both fully God and fully man; one person with two natures, human and divine.

"Who do you say that I am?" is the most important question we can answer, and we need to get that right.

I believe the marriage institution and the procreative act are the most premier object lessons that shows us what the plan of redemption and the incarnation are about. When a couple come together the husband provides a seed that is fully daddy. The wife provides a seed that is fully mommy. The two genetic bundles blend together to form a new creature which is mommy and daddy combined. in this child the 2 have in verity become ONE. Can you see it?

Yes, that is what happens as far as humans are concerned, but isn't what happened with Joseph and Mary, since it was a creative act of God that caused Mary to conceive.

When we come together with God and He helps us to die to self, a spiritual consummation occurs. God's Seed with His divine nature unites with our human nature and a new creature is born. Humanity and divinity are joined together within the believer.

Where is that taught in Scripture?

Then isn't this the incarnation, God in human flesh?

Yes, of course.

That is if the believer is indeed dead to self. God will not share His place in the soul temple with the human Ego

No, God indwells people; we don't cease to be the people he created us to be.

Yes! That is what I have said
Does this some how overthrow the Gospel. Can this understanding fail or be insufficient in the saving of mankind.

Yes, it actually does. It makes Jesus into something he is not. Jesus is and forever will be both God and man. The Son became human, adding on our full nature, so that he could really and truly live as one of us, and then die for our sins and become our advocate before the Father. That God actually became human is at the heart of the gospel.

By taking a descendent of Adam through life, in continual obedience to all the will of the Father, The Son proves that Satan does not have full control over the human race. This gives us confidence that the Son can produce His life in me too.

How, exactly, does the Son possessing a human prove "that Satan does not have full control over the human race"? Wouldn't it only prove that as long as the Son is possessing a human that Satan does not have full control over that specific human?

Luke 8 has the story of a demoniac where the demons could use the man's voice and speak. But it was not the man speaking but a spirit being. The demons used super human strength while in his body to break metal chains. I was persuaded to believe that it was a full body capture not just an influence. After the demons were gone Jesus could speak to the man. Now compare this possession 'indwelling' to the Son speaking through Jesus
"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

As temples, we are to be possessed of God. We live and move and find our being in Him. Is it too much to say that in us He lives and moved and expresses His being ?

That is not biblical. Demons possess people and take over their minds and bodies, but that is not what happened to Jesus nor is it what happens to believers.

 

[leroy]

That the human part of him was descended from the lineage of David.

You seem to be contradicting your previous belief.
That is to say he had the same nature as David and Adam. Is that what you believe?

That it was God's plan since the foundation of the world to send his Son to die for our sins.

What I see is that as soon as there was sin there was a savior. He laid down His life right there in Eden where the rebellion began. He gave up all the prerogatives of God to be our life to give us a needed advantage against our captor. If we are quiet we will feel Him reaching out to the Father on our behalf. John 3:16 declares that God gave us His Son. He was the spiritual replacement of the spiritual aspect of the nature that God gave us which died. After sin we became only flesh, carnal. Without the Son in us we would not have life (1John 5:12 "...he that hath not the Son hath not life." When sin entered He became the Seed of the woman. I believe that every offspring of Adam had the Seed in them to reconnect them to the Father and be able to follow and obey the Father. Without the Son in humanity they had nothing in them to desire or respond to God. The human race would have perished in the first generation. Even with the Son as a gift to us, the human race almost perished just prior to the flood. One more generation would have finished us off because so many had aborted the Seed due to neglect.
Without the Seed the following is our hopeless estate:
"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."Rom. 8:6-8

It's a huge difference, which is why that--Jesus was merely a man possessed by the Son--has long been rejected as heresy (Nestorianism). We must stick to what the Bible says, which is that the Son left heaven and came to earth in the form of a human, being both fully God and fully man; one person with two natures, human and divine.

If the Son can live in us what is unacceptable of the Son living in Mary's son?

"Who do you say that I am?" is the most important question we can answer, and we need to get that right.

Wen Jesus spoke to the demoniac he was speaking to the demons not the human. "what is your name?" Jesus wanted the disciples knew who was living among them. I don't think they had a full understanding yet of who he was.

Yes, that is what happens as far as humans are concerned, but isn't what happened with Joseph and Mary, since it was a creative act of God that caused Mary to conceive.

You have misunderstood, I was not referring to Joseph and Mary. I was speaking in general. Sorry you cannot see the beauty in what Father wants us to see.

Where is that taught in Scripture?

Romans describes out death and resurrection if we will believe God.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit....." John 3
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and
abideth for ever." 1Peter 1:23
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1John 3:9
Jesus was conceived by a miraculous activity of the Spirit.
We are conceived and born again by a miraculous activity of the Spirit. A spiritual consummative act.

Yes, of course.

If God is living in you is that incarnation?

No, God indwells people; we don't cease to be the people he created us to be.

It is true. We do not cease to be the people He created us to be, but the old man the fallen nature along with the ego is destroyed and buried. He will not contend with the ego. If you choose to do your own will His reply to you is Not My will but your's be done.

Yes, it actually does. It makes Jesus into something he is not. Jesus is and forever will be both God and man.

And the redeemed are both God and man forever, because the Son is their life and He must remain bound to humanity or they would cease to exist.

The Son became human, adding on our full nature,

When the Son is in us 1John 5:11-12 Humanity and divinity are one John 17.

so that he could really and truly live as one of us,

He lives within us in the most intimate way. He is acquainted with our griefs He has taken our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. each and everyone of us as He lives within, truly He has more than an intimate knowledge of what His children experience for He is our life.

and then die for our sins and become our advocate before the Father.

His death before the foundation of the world had nothing to do with blood and torture. It was a death to all that He was, His power and His knowledge. He laid it all aside demonstrating that He would never ask us to do anything that He would first do Himself. Within the believer He works to bring each of us to give up everything that we are. In the death of the cross He demonstrated through Mary's son how it is done to submit unto death voluntarily. The old man (ego)was condemned to death and those who let him go and allow God to live in them, to both will and to do of His good pleasure will be saved. That is how He advocates for us.

That God actually became human is at the heart of the gospel.

This is so true. Living in us is how we are saved and that is good news.

How, exactly, does the Son possessing a human prove "that Satan does not have full control over the human race"? Wouldn't it only prove that as long as the Son is possessing a human that Satan does not have full control over that specific human?

It exposes the lie that humans are unable to live a life of continual obedience. If God can do this in one man it proves that He can accomplish it in the weakest of souls as long as they believe and cling to Him as Jesus did.

That is not biblical. Demons possess people and take over their minds and bodies, but that is not what happened to Jesus nor is it what happens to believers.

These scriptures say otherwise.
"For it is God who lives in you to both will and do according to His good pleasure." "I am crucified with Christ, never the less I live but it is not I that live but Christ that lives in me."
If you accept the Son to be your life you too can be victorious continually as Jesus was and you can be one of many who have been born again and are living for God instead of self.

 

[leroy]

Anyone,
I just saw a notification below. What is a push notification? And how do I give permission to enable

 

[Free]

You seem to be contradicting your previous belief.
That is to say he had the same nature as David and Adam. Is that what you believe?

What do you think I have contradicted? Jesus was truly God and truly man, which means he was in nature truly God and in nature truly man.

What I see is that as soon as there was sin there was a savior. He laid down His life right there in Eden where the rebellion began.

But, he didn't lay down his life until his actual death, which was after the incarnation.

He gave up all the prerogatives of God to be our life to give us a needed advantage against our captor.

Again, the Son didn't come to earth and wasn't given for us until the incarnation. That is one of the most basic, fundamental teachings of Scripture. That is what all four gospels show, particularly Matt. 1:18-23, Mark 1:1-4, Luke 1:31-35, and John 1:1-18. Among other NT passages, it's also what both Paul (Gal. 4:4-5; Phil. 2:5-8) and the writer of Hebrews (Heb. 1:1-3) show.

If we are quiet we will feel Him reaching out to the Father on our behalf.

If that can be said, it can only be said of those who are truly saved.

John 3:16 declares that God gave us His Son.

Yes, and that occurred in the gospel passages I provided, not before then.

He was the spiritual replacement of the spiritual aspect of the nature that God gave us which died.

No, he is the propitiation for our sins, through which we are reconciled to God. There is no "spiritual replacement." We were separated from God due to sin and we needed to be reconciled.

After sin we became only flesh, carnal. Without the Son in us we would not have life (1John 5:12 "...he that hath not the Son hath not life."

Yes, exactly, but that does not and will not happen until a person puts their faith in Jesus.

Joh 1:9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. (ESV)

Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
…
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
…
Joh 6:50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
…
Joh 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? (ESV)

There are numerous passages which attest to this, but you have also left out an important one, one that forms more of the immediate context of 1 John 5:12:

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Notice that John is speaks of "the word of life," "the life," and "the eternal life," and that that life was made manifest, in the person of the Son.

Also:

1Jn 5:6 This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:
1Jn 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son.
1Jn 5:10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. (ESV)

To "have the Son," as John states in verse 12, is to believe the Son of God came in the flesh, embodying eternal life, which will be given to those who believe.

When sin entered He became the Seed of the woman. I believe that every offspring of Adam had the Seed in them to reconnect them to the Father and be able to follow and obey the Father.

That is more akin to Gnosticism than biblical Christianity.

Without the Son in humanity they had nothing in them to desire or respond to God.

Not so. Certain individuals, such as Abram, did worship God and put their faith in him and his promises.

The human race would have perished in the first generation.

Not so. God is sovereign and only lets so much happen. First, we have the account of Noah and the utter wickedness on the earth, so much so that God destroyed almost everyone. That alone proves your position in error. Yet, we see that some, eight people, followed God and whom he saved by his grace. Second, we see in the story of Job, that God only lets so much happen:

Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
...
Job 2:6 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.” (ESV)

Even with the Son as a gift to us, the human race almost perished just prior to the flood. One more generation would have finished us off because so many had aborted the Seed due to neglect.

There was no gift of the Son until Jesus was born.

 

[Free]

Without the Seed the following is our hopeless estate:

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."Rom. 8:6-8

But, that has absolutely nothing to do with the Son of God living in every human, with the seed, as you say. That has to do with the Holy Spirit coming to dwell in those who are true believers after they have put the faith in the name of Jesus.

You left out some significant context:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (ESV)

One will very often get into error by proof-texting, by taking verses out of context. Paul clearly states that God God sent "his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh," that is, as a human, again reaffirming the passages I have already given.

If the Son can live in us what is unacceptable of the Son living in Mary's son?

You're putting the cart before the horse. The Son does not live in anyone until after they accept his atoning death and resurrection, until they "believe in his name." "Mary's son," as you keep saying, was and is the incarnate Son of God, and not just a human within which the Son of God came to dwell. Again, that has long been rejected as heresy because it is not biblical.

Wen Jesus spoke to the demoniac he was speaking to the demons not the human. "what is your name?" Jesus wanted the disciples knew who was living among them. I don't think they had a full understanding yet of who he was.

Yes, of course.

You have misunderstood, I was not referring to Joseph and Mary. I was speaking in general. Sorry you cannot see the beauty in what Father wants us to see.

Then I really don't know what your point was.

Romans describes out death and resurrection if we will believe God.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit....." John 3
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and
abideth for ever." 1Peter 1:23
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1John 3:9
Jesus was conceived by a miraculous activity of the Spirit.
We are conceived and born again by a miraculous activity of the Spirit. A spiritual consummative act.

We are transformed by the Spirit, yes, but what do you mean by "a spiritual consummative act"?

If God is living in you is that incarnation?

No. There was and is only one incarnation, when Jesus was conceived in Mary.

And the redeemed are both God and man forever, because the Son is their life and He must remain bound to humanity or they would cease to exist.

No, only Jesus is both God and man forever. Man is a creature and cannot, by definition, become God since God is infinite.

When the Son is in us 1John 5:11-12 Humanity and divinity are one John 17.

No, that is not what either of those passages are saying.

His death before the foundation of the world had nothing to do with blood and torture. It was a death to all that He was, His power and His knowledge. He laid it all aside demonstrating that He would never ask us to do anything that He would first do Himself. Within the believer He works to bring each of us to give up everything that we are. In the death of the cross He demonstrated through Mary's son how it is done to submit unto death voluntarily. The old man (ego)was condemned to death and those who let him go and allow God to live in them, to both will and to do of His good pleasure will be saved. That is how He advocates for us.

But, he didn't die before the foundation of the world; the plan was in place for him to die before the foundation of the world, but he didn't die until 30-33 A.D.

Act 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Act 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. (ESV)

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. (ESV)

This is so true. Living in us is how we are saved and that is good news.

The good news is that Jesus died for our sins, in our place, as a propitiatory sacrifice. He took our sins upon himself so that God's justice would be satisfied and whoever believes and puts their trust in him could have eternal life.

It exposes the lie that humans are unable to live a life of continual obedience. If God can do this in one man it proves that He can accomplish it in the weakest of souls as long as they believe and cling to Him as Jesus did.

But, God didn't "do this in one man." That is a false gospel based on a false Christ, to be necessarily blunt. You seem to be mixing Christianity with Gnosticism, which is leading to the heresy of Nestorianism. These are exceedingly serious errors.

These scriptures say otherwise.

"For it is God who lives in you to both will and do according to His good pleasure." "I am crucified with Christ, never the less I live but it is not I that live but Christ that lives in me."
If you accept the Son to be your life you too can be victorious continually as Jesus was and you can be one of many who have been born again and are living for God instead of self.

You're conflating different ideas. Demon possession is about total control of one being (human) by another (demon), to the point which the person has no control over themselves when the demon so decides. Yes, Christ comes to live in us, but it is not about control. We still maintain our faculties and are responsible for how we live, but we must look to him and the help of the Holy Spirit to live as we ought. We are then being renewed day by day into the image of Christ.