Jesus Is God: Part 1

[JLB]

Jesus was not "chosen" to do anything. He was the Word, the Son of God, who purposefully and willfully came to earth, taking on human flesh, as a part of God's eternal plan of redemption through penal substitutionary atonement. His primary purpose was to die for our sins in our place.

I agree with much of what you have said here.

However I believe Jesus is called the Elect One.

So in that sense I believe He was chosen.

I also believe those who are in Christ are the elect, since He Himself is called the Elect One.


“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
Thus says God the LORD,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
Isaiah 42:1-5


Here we see the Spirit of Christ, referring to the Man Jesus Christ as the Elect One.

So I agree with you that God the Son (The Spirit of Christ) the Eternal Word, was not chosen for anything.


However, the Man Jesus Christ was indeed called the Elect One, and was chosen to bring salvation to the world.





JLB

 

[JLB]

It is also written God spoke to us by His Son. According to Jesus's own testimony it was the Father IN Him doing HIS work.

Yes agreed.

God worked through the Man Jesus Christ by His Spirit.

Jesus Christ, God the Son, was manifested in the flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

He became The Man Jesus Christ, whom God the Father worked through.


For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men,
the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5

 

[leroy]

I agree with much of what you have said here.

However I believe Jesus is called the Elect One.

So in that sense I believe He was chosen.

I also believe those who are in Christ are the elect, since He Himself is called the Elect One.


“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
Thus says God the LORD,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
Isaiah 42:1-5


Here we see the Spirit of Christ, referring to the Man Jesus Christ as the Elect One.

So I agree with you that God the Son (The Spirit of Christ) the Eternal Word, was not chosen for anything.


However, the Man Jesus Christ was indeed called the Elect One, and was chosen to bring salvation to the world.





JLB

Thank you for sharing this reply. I had not considered it before

 

[Free]

I agree with much of what you have said here.

However I believe Jesus is called the Elect One.

So in that sense I believe He was chosen.

I also believe those who are in Christ are the elect, since He Himself is called the Elect One.


“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
Thus says God the LORD,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:
Isaiah 42:1-5


Here we see the Spirit of Christ, referring to the Man Jesus Christ as the Elect One.

So I agree with you that God the Son (The Spirit of Christ) the Eternal Word, was not chosen for anything.


However, the Man Jesus Christ was indeed called the Elect One, and was chosen to bring salvation to the world.

Yes, but what I was addressing was this: "It seems so clear to see that Jesus was a member of the human family and was chosen." My point is that Jesus was not just a human who was then chosen and the Son of God entered him, or something like that, but rather that he was the God-man from conception; two natures in one person.

 

[JLB]

My point is that Jesus was not just a human who was then chosen and the Son of God entered him, or something like that, but rather that he was the God-man from conception; two natures in one person.

 

[Free]

What do you understand this to mean? "...made of the seed of David according to the flesh." Romans 1:3

That the human part of him was descended from the lineage of David.

What do you understand this to mean? "...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev. 13:8

That it was God's plan since the foundation of the world to send his Son to die for our sins.

"two persons, each with their own nature," Well, it is said 'fully God and fully man' That is 2 fully's. 200%. Two beings, one divine one human. If the Son can live in us what is unacceptable of the Son living in Mary's son. I think it is a distinction without a difference.

It's a huge difference, which is why that--Jesus was merely a man possessed by the Son--has long been rejected as heresy (Nestorianism). We must stick to what the Bible says, which is that the Son left heaven and came to earth in the form of a human, being both fully God and fully man; one person with two natures, human and divine.

"Who do you say that I am?" is the most important question we can answer, and we need to get that right.

I believe the marriage institution and the procreative act are the most premier object lessons that shows us what the plan of redemption and the incarnation are about. When a couple come together the husband provides a seed that is fully daddy. The wife provides a seed that is fully mommy. The two genetic bundles blend together to form a new creature which is mommy and daddy combined. in this child the 2 have in verity become ONE. Can you see it?

Yes, that is what happens as far as humans are concerned, but isn't what happened with Joseph and Mary, since it was a creative act of God that caused Mary to conceive.

When we come together with God and He helps us to die to self, a spiritual consummation occurs. God's Seed with His divine nature unites with our human nature and a new creature is born. Humanity and divinity are joined together within the believer.

Where is that taught in Scripture?

Then isn't this the incarnation, God in human flesh?

Yes, of course.

That is if the believer is indeed dead to self. God will not share His place in the soul temple with the human Ego

No, God indwells people; we don't cease to be the people he created us to be.

Yes! That is what I have said
Does this some how overthrow the Gospel. Can this understanding fail or be insufficient in the saving of mankind.

Yes, it actually does. It makes Jesus into something he is not. Jesus is and forever will be both God and man. The Son became human, adding on our full nature, so that he could really and truly live as one of us, and then die for our sins and become our advocate before the Father. That God actually became human is at the heart of the gospel.

By taking a descendent of Adam through life, in continual obedience to all the will of the Father, The Son proves that Satan does not have full control over the human race. This gives us confidence that the Son can produce His life in me too.

How, exactly, does the Son possessing a human prove "that Satan does not have full control over the human race"? Wouldn't it only prove that as long as the Son is possessing a human that Satan does not have full control over that specific human?

Luke 8 has the story of a demoniac where the demons could use the man's voice and speak. But it was not the man speaking but a spirit being. The demons used super human strength while in his body to break metal chains. I was persuaded to believe that it was a full body capture not just an influence. After the demons were gone Jesus could speak to the man. Now compare this possession 'indwelling' to the Son speaking through Jesus
"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

As temples, we are to be possessed of God. We live and move and find our being in Him. Is it too much to say that in us He lives and moved and expresses His being ?

That is not biblical. Demons possess people and take over their minds and bodies, but that is not what happened to Jesus nor is it what happens to believers.

 

[leroy]

That the human part of him was descended from the lineage of David.

You seem to be contradicting your previous belief.
That is to say he had the same nature as David and Adam. Is that what you believe?

That it was God's plan since the foundation of the world to send his Son to die for our sins.

What I see is that as soon as there was sin there was a savior. He laid down His life right there in Eden where the rebellion began. He gave up all the prerogatives of God to be our life to give us a needed advantage against our captor. If we are quiet we will feel Him reaching out to the Father on our behalf. John 3:16 declares that God gave us His Son. He was the spiritual replacement of the spiritual aspect of the nature that God gave us which died. After sin we became only flesh, carnal. Without the Son in us we would not have life (1John 5:12 "...he that hath not the Son hath not life." When sin entered He became the Seed of the woman. I believe that every offspring of Adam had the Seed in them to reconnect them to the Father and be able to follow and obey the Father. Without the Son in humanity they had nothing in them to desire or respond to God. The human race would have perished in the first generation. Even with the Son as a gift to us, the human race almost perished just prior to the flood. One more generation would have finished us off because so many had aborted the Seed due to neglect.
Without the Seed the following is our hopeless estate:
"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."Rom. 8:6-8

It's a huge difference, which is why that--Jesus was merely a man possessed by the Son--has long been rejected as heresy (Nestorianism). We must stick to what the Bible says, which is that the Son left heaven and came to earth in the form of a human, being both fully God and fully man; one person with two natures, human and divine.

If the Son can live in us what is unacceptable of the Son living in Mary's son?

"Who do you say that I am?" is the most important question we can answer, and we need to get that right.

Wen Jesus spoke to the demoniac he was speaking to the demons not the human. "what is your name?" Jesus wanted the disciples knew who was living among them. I don't think they had a full understanding yet of who he was.

Yes, that is what happens as far as humans are concerned, but isn't what happened with Joseph and Mary, since it was a creative act of God that caused Mary to conceive.

You have misunderstood, I was not referring to Joseph and Mary. I was speaking in general. Sorry you cannot see the beauty in what Father wants us to see.

Where is that taught in Scripture?

Romans describes out death and resurrection if we will believe God.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit....." John 3
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and
abideth for ever." 1Peter 1:23
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1John 3:9
Jesus was conceived by a miraculous activity of the Spirit.
We are conceived and born again by a miraculous activity of the Spirit. A spiritual consummative act.

Yes, of course.

If God is living in you is that incarnation?

No, God indwells people; we don't cease to be the people he created us to be.

It is true. We do not cease to be the people He created us to be, but the old man the fallen nature along with the ego is destroyed and buried. He will not contend with the ego. If you choose to do your own will His reply to you is Not My will but your's be done.

Yes, it actually does. It makes Jesus into something he is not. Jesus is and forever will be both God and man.

And the redeemed are both God and man forever, because the Son is their life and He must remain bound to humanity or they would cease to exist.

The Son became human, adding on our full nature,

When the Son is in us 1John 5:11-12 Humanity and divinity are one John 17.

so that he could really and truly live as one of us,

He lives within us in the most intimate way. He is acquainted with our griefs He has taken our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. each and everyone of us as He lives within, truly He has more than an intimate knowledge of what His children experience for He is our life.

and then die for our sins and become our advocate before the Father.

His death before the foundation of the world had nothing to do with blood and torture. It was a death to all that He was, His power and His knowledge. He laid it all aside demonstrating that He would never ask us to do anything that He would first do Himself. Within the believer He works to bring each of us to give up everything that we are. In the death of the cross He demonstrated through Mary's son how it is done to submit unto death voluntarily. The old man (ego)was condemned to death and those who let him go and allow God to live in them, to both will and to do of His good pleasure will be saved. That is how He advocates for us.

That God actually became human is at the heart of the gospel.

This is so true. Living in us is how we are saved and that is good news.

How, exactly, does the Son possessing a human prove "that Satan does not have full control over the human race"? Wouldn't it only prove that as long as the Son is possessing a human that Satan does not have full control over that specific human?

It exposes the lie that humans are unable to live a life of continual obedience. If God can do this in one man it proves that He can accomplish it in the weakest of souls as long as they believe and cling to Him as Jesus did.

That is not biblical. Demons possess people and take over their minds and bodies, but that is not what happened to Jesus nor is it what happens to believers.

These scriptures say otherwise.
"For it is God who lives in you to both will and do according to His good pleasure." "I am crucified with Christ, never the less I live but it is not I that live but Christ that lives in me."
If you accept the Son to be your life you too can be victorious continually as Jesus was and you can be one of many who have been born again and are living for God instead of self.

 

[leroy]

Anyone,
I just saw a notification below. What is a push notification? And how do I give permission to enable

 

[Free]

You seem to be contradicting your previous belief.
That is to say he had the same nature as David and Adam. Is that what you believe?

What do you think I have contradicted? Jesus was truly God and truly man, which means he was in nature truly God and in nature truly man.

What I see is that as soon as there was sin there was a savior. He laid down His life right there in Eden where the rebellion began.

But, he didn't lay down his life until his actual death, which was after the incarnation.

He gave up all the prerogatives of God to be our life to give us a needed advantage against our captor.

Again, the Son didn't come to earth and wasn't given for us until the incarnation. That is one of the most basic, fundamental teachings of Scripture. That is what all four gospels show, particularly Matt. 1:18-23, Mark 1:1-4, Luke 1:31-35, and John 1:1-18. Among other NT passages, it's also what both Paul (Gal. 4:4-5; Phil. 2:5-8) and the writer of Hebrews (Heb. 1:1-3) show.

If we are quiet we will feel Him reaching out to the Father on our behalf.

If that can be said, it can only be said of those who are truly saved.

John 3:16 declares that God gave us His Son.

Yes, and that occurred in the gospel passages I provided, not before then.

He was the spiritual replacement of the spiritual aspect of the nature that God gave us which died.

No, he is the propitiation for our sins, through which we are reconciled to God. There is no "spiritual replacement." We were separated from God due to sin and we needed to be reconciled.

After sin we became only flesh, carnal. Without the Son in us we would not have life (1John 5:12 "...he that hath not the Son hath not life."

Yes, exactly, but that does not and will not happen until a person puts their faith in Jesus.

Joh 1:9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. (ESV)

Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
…
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
…
Joh 6:50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
…
Joh 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? (ESV)

There are numerous passages which attest to this, but you have also left out an important one, one that forms more of the immediate context of 1 John 5:12:

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Notice that John is speaks of "the word of life," "the life," and "the eternal life," and that that life was made manifest, in the person of the Son.

Also:

1Jn 5:6 This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:
1Jn 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son.
1Jn 5:10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. (ESV)

To "have the Son," as John states in verse 12, is to believe the Son of God came in the flesh, embodying eternal life, which will be given to those who believe.

When sin entered He became the Seed of the woman. I believe that every offspring of Adam had the Seed in them to reconnect them to the Father and be able to follow and obey the Father.

That is more akin to Gnosticism than biblical Christianity.

Without the Son in humanity they had nothing in them to desire or respond to God.

Not so. Certain individuals, such as Abram, did worship God and put their faith in him and his promises.

The human race would have perished in the first generation.

Not so. God is sovereign and only lets so much happen. First, we have the account of Noah and the utter wickedness on the earth, so much so that God destroyed almost everyone. That alone proves your position in error. Yet, we see that some, eight people, followed God and whom he saved by his grace. Second, we see in the story of Job, that God only lets so much happen:

Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
...
Job 2:6 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.” (ESV)

Even with the Son as a gift to us, the human race almost perished just prior to the flood. One more generation would have finished us off because so many had aborted the Seed due to neglect.

There was no gift of the Son until Jesus was born.

 

[Free]

Without the Seed the following is our hopeless estate:

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."Rom. 8:6-8

But, that has absolutely nothing to do with the Son of God living in every human, with the seed, as you say. That has to do with the Holy Spirit coming to dwell in those who are true believers after they have put the faith in the name of Jesus.

You left out some significant context:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (ESV)

One will very often get into error by proof-texting, by taking verses out of context. Paul clearly states that God God sent "his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh," that is, as a human, again reaffirming the passages I have already given.

If the Son can live in us what is unacceptable of the Son living in Mary's son?

You're putting the cart before the horse. The Son does not live in anyone until after they accept his atoning death and resurrection, until they "believe in his name." "Mary's son," as you keep saying, was and is the incarnate Son of God, and not just a human within which the Son of God came to dwell. Again, that has long been rejected as heresy because it is not biblical.

Wen Jesus spoke to the demoniac he was speaking to the demons not the human. "what is your name?" Jesus wanted the disciples knew who was living among them. I don't think they had a full understanding yet of who he was.

Yes, of course.

You have misunderstood, I was not referring to Joseph and Mary. I was speaking in general. Sorry you cannot see the beauty in what Father wants us to see.

Then I really don't know what your point was.

Romans describes out death and resurrection if we will believe God.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit....." John 3
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and
abideth for ever." 1Peter 1:23
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1John 3:9
Jesus was conceived by a miraculous activity of the Spirit.
We are conceived and born again by a miraculous activity of the Spirit. A spiritual consummative act.

We are transformed by the Spirit, yes, but what do you mean by "a spiritual consummative act"?

If God is living in you is that incarnation?

No. There was and is only one incarnation, when Jesus was conceived in Mary.

And the redeemed are both God and man forever, because the Son is their life and He must remain bound to humanity or they would cease to exist.

No, only Jesus is both God and man forever. Man is a creature and cannot, by definition, become God since God is infinite.

When the Son is in us 1John 5:11-12 Humanity and divinity are one John 17.

No, that is not what either of those passages are saying.

His death before the foundation of the world had nothing to do with blood and torture. It was a death to all that He was, His power and His knowledge. He laid it all aside demonstrating that He would never ask us to do anything that He would first do Himself. Within the believer He works to bring each of us to give up everything that we are. In the death of the cross He demonstrated through Mary's son how it is done to submit unto death voluntarily. The old man (ego)was condemned to death and those who let him go and allow God to live in them, to both will and to do of His good pleasure will be saved. That is how He advocates for us.

But, he didn't die before the foundation of the world; the plan was in place for him to die before the foundation of the world, but he didn't die until 30-33 A.D.

Act 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Act 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. (ESV)

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. (ESV)

This is so true. Living in us is how we are saved and that is good news.

The good news is that Jesus died for our sins, in our place, as a propitiatory sacrifice. He took our sins upon himself so that God's justice would be satisfied and whoever believes and puts their trust in him could have eternal life.

It exposes the lie that humans are unable to live a life of continual obedience. If God can do this in one man it proves that He can accomplish it in the weakest of souls as long as they believe and cling to Him as Jesus did.

But, God didn't "do this in one man." That is a false gospel based on a false Christ, to be necessarily blunt. You seem to be mixing Christianity with Gnosticism, which is leading to the heresy of Nestorianism. These are exceedingly serious errors.

These scriptures say otherwise.

"For it is God who lives in you to both will and do according to His good pleasure." "I am crucified with Christ, never the less I live but it is not I that live but Christ that lives in me."
If you accept the Son to be your life you too can be victorious continually as Jesus was and you can be one of many who have been born again and are living for God instead of self.

You're conflating different ideas. Demon possession is about total control of one being (human) by another (demon), to the point which the person has no control over themselves when the demon so decides. Yes, Christ comes to live in us, but it is not about control. We still maintain our faculties and are responsible for how we live, but we must look to him and the help of the Holy Spirit to live as we ought. We are then being renewed day by day into the image of Christ.

 

[leroy]

What do you think I have contradicted? Jesus was truly God and truly man, which means he was in nature truly God and in nature truly man.

I was under the impression that you believed his humanity was a blank human like thing that just appeared and had no real connection to us. My error.

But, he didn't lay down his life until his actual death, which was after the incarnation.

It says that He was slain from the foundation and it seems necessary that He inhabit humanity when we needed Him most. Not 4000 years later. How could he light every one that came into the world if he was not around until 4000 years later? I believe He was in every human to replace the life they lost in Eden.
What do you think?

Again, the Son didn't come to earth and wasn't given for us until the incarnation. That is one of the most basic, fundamental teachings of Scripture. That is what all four gospels show, particularly Matt. 1:18-23, Mark 1:1-4, Luke 1:31-35, and John 1:1-18. Among other NT passages, it's also what both Paul (Gal. 4:4-5; Phil. 2:5-8) and the writer of Hebrews (Heb. 1:1-3) show.

How was He of any benefit to those who lived before Jesus time? How did he light every one who came into the world if he showed up 4000 years later?

 

[leroy]

Hello Free,
I believe every text you quoted but I see something in them that you have not seen. What led me on this journey is when Adam sinned they died spiritually, as was promised. Humanity was broken and unfixable. Captives of another master. They were dead while they lived. There was nothing left alive spiritually that would lead them back to the Creator.
Their condition of brokenness and need caused me to wonder how they could escape the clutches of the adversary.
I have to believe that their only hope was for God to introduce the plan of redemption right then and there, Not 4000 years later.
The plan is to give the Son to humanity to give them His life. Not another injection of mortal life but the eternal life that existed in the Son. Not just life but the Son's presence with His love for the Father and willingness to obey. He would be their spiritual ears if they would allow it. His prayers to the Father would be theirs as well if they yielded to that sweet voice.
I can see clearly how Jesus life, death and resurrection at the fullness of time was to clarify in greater detail the plan to save us. Through the centuries the light has increased and we stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before. In Hebrews 11 there is a list of the faithful down through time. and it ends with this wonderful statement. These all have a good report died in faith not receiving the promise. God having some better thing for us that they without us could not be made perfect. Yes there is something that we, at the end of time, will understand and step into and display the fullness of the stature of the Son of God. This is that better thing, Christ in us willing and doing, living and expressing His purity of character in us. He is waiting so that he can come and be glorified in us.
This will demonstrate that if these who lived in the past had a quality of faith that would "Make them perfect" had they lived in these last days.
I don't know how to make this any clearer. Religion piled so much rubbish on the true light and has made Jesus as a God out there in Heaven somewhere. But I have found the Son living here in me just as He lived in Jesus.
I have only shared a small part of what has been given me. But it seems a great task to get people over that first hill of God in us, literally, actually and factually.
The reformation has almost finished its work.

 

[Randy]

Yes agreed.

God worked through the Man Jesus Christ by His Spirit.

Jesus Christ, God the Son, was manifested in the flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

He became The Man Jesus Christ, whom God the Father worked through.


For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men,
the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5

God created through Him before He became the Son of man. The fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him before all things. The Deity in Him created. By Him God created all things.
You have been shown this testimony. You have added your own twist and applied it to the Son of Man only rather than the Son who was. His God is that Deity. That fullness of that Deity dwells IN Him. In that manner He is God in bodily form.
He is the begotten God. OR the only like to like begotten Son of the ONE He calls is His God and Father. The Father is the only unbegotten true God. His Deity does not change and another Deity will not be formed after Him. He gifted His fullness to His Firstborn. Col 1:19
God from true God NOT true God from true God. The source does not change persons. It dwells in the Son. They are one.

I suppose we could go on forever in disagreement.

So I'll state okeydokey.

 

[JLB]

God created through Him before He became the Son of man.

What was He before He became the Son of man?

If He is before all things, and by Him all things were created, which includes angel and human beings then He is God; God the Son.


For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. Colossians 1:16

• For by Him all things were created

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:17


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


Instead of rearranging the scripture to bend them your own understanding, why not read and believe what the scriptures say?


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


The Son stretched out the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth!


Question -

Was the heavens and the earth created by:

An angel?
A man?
God?

 

[Corinth77777]

I have to believe that their only hope was for God to introduce the plan of redemption right then and there, Not 4000 years later.

One just can't say what happened for sure unless it was revealed to them by God.

Lightens every man's heart that comes into the world- could mean by what has been made by Him.
recall the scripture that " man will be without excuse"
But I am in agreement to pieces of thoughts you presented.

For If I recall correctly God had made Adam and Eve clothing from an Animal.

And in Hebrews it says the gospel was preach to them as well as to us.

They were looking to what would be, therefore had to wait until He came into the world died and resurrected in order for Him, in my opinion set the "captives free"

However what slain b4 the foundation of the world could mean- is that it was in the mind of God, in his plan.

Is this maybe why Abraham was credited righteousness because God already had a plan.

Your thought leaves out one thing those who believed that thenwould received the "Holy Spirit".

And this is why I thought it would make for a good discussion because I could then postulate a theory to see if it stands.

For example did they already have the spirit of God only to now to receive the Holy Ghost.

In that day of the Pentecost when the power of the resurrected body of Christ would come to live in men.

Just my thoughts

Ultimately, the real question is if you are already saying they have the son, then why would people need to receive the Holy Spirit once they believe?

Yet if Holyghost and Holyspirit are different and they receive the Spirit when they came into the world then a theory might be postulated.

But you haven't presented a scripture for that.

 

[Corinth77777]

What was He before He became the Son of man?

If He is before all things, and by Him all things were created, which includes angel and human beings then He is God; God the Son.


For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. Colossians 1:16

• For by Him all things were created

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:17


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


Instead of rearranging the scripture to bend them your own understanding, why not read and believe what the scriptures say?


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


The Son stretched out the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth!


Question -

Was the heavens and the earth created by:

An angel?
A man?
God?

Yal are really deep
You lost me

Are you JLB saying that God is a family

And Randy saying God is the mind and creates through His word?

 

[Corinth77777]

Dallas Willard's Def of Trinity

The Trinity is real. The cosmos environing us actually is, beyond all else, a self-sufficing community of unspeakably magnificent personal beings of boundless love, knowledge, and power. God is a sweet society of Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[leroy]

One just can't say what happened for sure unless it was revealed to them by God.

I will say this, I have had questions and during my quiet times over the years these thoughts are what have come to me. Did I hear voices no. Yet they are so clear as how God delivers us from evil by the indwelling.
There have been times when God came close and spoke to me on other subjects which revealed how the devil works and delivered me from hatred and being offended. I saw how the devil suggests these lies in first person and we own them as if they were our own thoughts and feelings arise which allows the demons to control us. It was like the film the Wizard of Oz when the curtain was pulled back and they could see the truth. The devil is the offended one who is filled with hate and we as puppets own it.... until the truth MAKES us free.

As to the circumstance in Eden. It seems very clear that something died.
1Tim 5:6 Those who live in pleasure are dead while they live.
Prov 8:36 "...he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Rom. 1 :6,7 "For to be carnally minded is death; ....Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Therefore they were dead spiritually and at was with God.
So, how could they ever find their way back unless God initiated His plan to redeem. His Son laid down His life, just as a parent would lay down their life for their children. They will gladly sacrifice everything for the life of their children. Would not God do more than we can imagine?
You might call it speculation but it is far more beautiful and believable than the story we grew up with.

Lightens every man's heart that comes into the world- could mean by what has been made by Him.
recall the scripture that " man will be without excuse"
But I am in agreement to pieces of thoughts you presented.

Well, the truth that there is a God is clearly seen in nature but that is not the truth that delivers the soul from captivity.
Without the Son to enlighten us from within no amount of information or natural complexity will convert the soul to the path of life. One must have God to see the light. Some might say, "Oh! It is the Holy Spirit that would do that. But the promise was the gift of the Son.

And in Hebrews it says the gospel was preach to them as well as to us.

So true

They were looking to what would be, therefore had to wait until He came into the world died and resurrected in order for Him, in my opinion set the "captives free"

Adam was unable to return to his Creator on his own for there was enmity in his heart. God had to give the Seed to overrule that with an enmity towards the serpent. Gen. 3:15

However what slain b4 the foundation of the world could mean- is that it was in the mind of God, in his plan.

I have heard that before and it takes the power and love out of the gospel. As a parent He sacrificed all out of love to save us. It seems self evident that He gave all for us as soon as it was needed.
Any earthly father would do everything he could to save his family, rather than to say from the safety of the shore, to his drowning family, "The life guard will be here in a few thousand years, just hang on as long as you can."
I had to believe that the Son sacrificed all in the beginning.
From that time on there were sacrifices and symbolism in the sanctuary/temples and with Abraham. and finally the life of Jesus to clarify and help us understand what the Lover of our soul has done to redeem us. But it had to be that it began when sin entered.

Is this maybe why Abraham was credited righteousness because God already had a plan.

He was faithful to what he knew and because he had a heart that was a heart single to God, it was counted to him for righteousness

Your thought leaves out one thing those who believed that thenwould received the "Holy Spirit".

What I believe about that is that the Son gave up all power and knowledge. Divested of all this to become equal to us. His strength and intelligence and knowledge is limited to each person he is in. He is completely helpless and dependent on the Father for those things. John 14:10 The Spirit is the agent who gives the power and wisdom to accomplish whatever the Father wills.

And this is why I thought it would make for a good discussion because I could then postulate a theory to see if it stands.

For example did they already have the spirit of God only to now to receive the Holy Ghost.

If you are speaking of Pentecost, it is clear that there are times that extra help is given. Sampson, Jesus walking on water or raising the dead. Philip transported to visit with the Ethiopian.

In that day of the Pentecost when the power of the resurrected body of Christ would come to live in men.

Resurrection power comes with the new birth. That is being redundant, they are the same thing. New birth, new creature, resurrection, all the same

Just my thoughts

Ultimately, the real question is if you are already saying they have the son, then why would people need to receive the Holy Spirit once they believe?

If they did not have the Son mediating for them and in them they would have no desire for the Spirit

Yet if Holyghost and Holyspirit are different and they receive the Spirit when they came into the world then a theory might be postulated.

But you haven't presented a scripture for that.

God is holy and God is spirit . I read in a favorite book of mine "the divine Spirit" and it was referring to the Son. So it depends upon the context. its semantics

 

[Free]

It says that He was slain from the foundation and it seems necessary that He inhabit humanity when we needed Him most. Not 4000 years later.

That is not what that means. We know that Jesus was the Lamb and was slain around 30-33 A.D. There is simply no way of getting around that. That was the one and only time he was slain. If he had been slain before, "from the foundation of the world," then his being slain again was needless and meaningless.

Jesus's death on the cross was a future event foreshadowed and anticipated by the Passover and the OT sacrificial system. There were also numerous OT prophecies about it occurring at a future date. There is nothing in the OT to even imply that there had been a sacrifice already for sins. In fact, the whole point of the law was to be "our guardian until Christ came" (Gal. 3:24).

What "slain from the foundation of the world" means is that it was God's plan from the foundation of the world to have his Son be the sacrifice for sins. Again:

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (ESV)

1Co 5:7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. (ESV)

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. (ESV)

1Pe 1:18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold,
1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
1Pe 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
1Pe 1:21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (ESV)

How could he light every one that came into the world if he was not around until 4000 years later?

Why should "he light everyone that came into the world"? Is there a verse that says he should or did or was going to, from the Fall onward?

I believe He was in every human to replace the life they lost in Eden.
What do you think?

I think that is false, if not heresy, as that would be more inline with Gnosticism, and is certainly not biblical or Christian. God will let you think what you want, even if it's wrong, but if you want to think something to be true about Scripture, then it had better be at least implied in or able to be derived from Scripture.

Joh 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
...
Joh 6:56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. (ESV)

Joh 14:18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
...
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
Joh 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?”
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (ESV)

Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. (ESV)

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (ESV)

The clear message in all these passages is that it is only those who believe in Jesus, who have put their faith and trust in him and his name and his work on the cross, that will have him come and dwell in them. We are all, by nature, children of wrath.

How was He of any benefit to those who lived before Jesus time?

He was their hope. They knew God had promised that one day there would be redemption and they looked forward to it.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” (ESV)

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
...
Heb 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
Heb 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. (ESV)

How did he light every one who came into the world if he showed up 4000 years later?

Again, where does the Bible say that he did "light every one who came into the world," prior to his incarnation? The Son has always existed, just as the Father has always existed, and God, in his grace, has given at least some enough light to be able to follow him, but that doesn't mean that that light is the indwelling Son.

Besides, we also see this:

Psa 119:105 Nun Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. (ESV)

God has given his word, his revelation of himself, as a light to guide men, for those who chose and choose to follow it.

 

[Free]

Hello Free,
I believe every text you quoted but I see something in them that you have not seen.

Many people have believed and do believe all manner of errors about what the Bible says simply because they believe they have seen something or been given a special revelation by the Holy Spirit. Be very careful in believing you have seen something that is actually true if you cannot find it within orthodox Christian belief.

What led me on this journey is when Adam sinned they died spiritually, as was promised. Humanity was broken and unfixable. Captives of another master. They were dead while they lived. There was nothing left alive spiritually that would lead them back to the Creator.
Their condition of brokenness and need caused me to wonder how they could escape the clutches of the adversary.
I have to believe that their only hope was for God to introduce the plan of redemption right then and there, Not 4000 years later.

Yet, if it isn't in the Bible, then it isn't true. God promised redemption right then and there, but that didn't happen until Jesus was crucified.

The plan is to give the Son to humanity to give them His life. Not another injection of mortal life but the eternal life that existed in the Son. Not just life but the Son's presence with His love for the Father and willingness to obey. He would be their spiritual ears if they would allow it. His prayers to the Father would be theirs as well if they yielded to that sweet voice.

If the Son could just give his eternal life to unregenerate people, that means that his death and resurrection were completely unnecessary. That completely undermines the gospel and God's plan of salvation.

I can see clearly how Jesus life, death and resurrection at the fullness of time was to clarify in greater detail the plan to save us.

It doesn't only clarify, it was the only plan.

I don't know how to make this any clearer. Religion piled so much rubbish on the true light and has made Jesus as a God out there in Heaven somewhere.

What religion has done so? Not Christianity.

But I have found the Son living here in me just as He lived in Jesus.

Sorry to have to say, but that is false and not from God. It is telling that you have not given one verse that can back up your claims, and that is the major problem with basing one's understanding of Scripture on subjective feelings.

The Son did not merely come to live in Jesus, the Son was Jesus and is eternally the God-man--one person with two natures. Jesus only comes to live in those who believe in his death and resurrection for their sins, which occurred around 30-33 A.D.

I have only shared a small part of what has been given me. But it seems a great task to get people over that first hill of God in us, literally, actually and factually.

God is only in believers, those who have put their faith and trust in Christ's atoning death and sacrifice, as the passages I gave previously show.

The reformation has almost finished its work.

What reformation?