Jesus Is God: Part 1

[Corinth77777]

I will say this, I have had questions and during my quiet times over the years these thoughts are what have come to me. Did I hear voices no. Yet they are so clear as how God delivers us from evil by the indwelling.
There have been times when God came close and spoke to me on other subjects which revealed how the devil works and delivered me from hatred and being offended. I saw how the devil suggests these lies in first person and we own them as if they were our own thoughts and feelings arise which allows the demons to control us. It was like the film the Wizard of Oz when the curtain was pulled back and they could see the truth. The devil is the offended one who is filled with hate and we as puppets own it.... until the truth MAKES us free.

As to the circumstance in Eden. It seems very clear that something died.
1Tim 5:6 Those who live in pleasure are dead while they live.
Prov 8:36 "...he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Rom. 1 :6,7 "For to be carnally minded is death; ....Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Therefore they were dead spiritually and at was with God.
So, how could they ever find their way back unless God initiated His plan to redeem. His Son laid down His life, just as a parent would lay down their life for their children. They will gladly sacrifice everything for the life of their children. Would not God do more than we can imagine?
You might call it speculation but it is far more beautiful and believable than the story we grew up with.

Well, the truth that there is a God is clearly seen in nature but that is not the truth that delivers the soul from captivity.
Without the Son to enlighten us from within no amount of information or natural complexity will convert the soul to the path of life. One must have God to see the light. Some might say, "Oh! It is the Holy Spirit that would do that. But the promise was the gift of the Son.

So true

Adam was unable to return to his Creator on his own for there was enmity in his heart. God had to give the Seed to overrule that with an enmity towards the serpent. Gen. 3:15


I have heard that before and it takes the power and love out of the gospel. As a parent He sacrificed all out of love to save us. It seems self evident that He gave all for us as soon as it was needed.
Any earthly father would do everything he could to save his family, rather than to say from the safety of the shore, to his drowning family, "The life guard will be here in a few thousand years, just hang on as long as you can."
I had to believe that the Son sacrificed all in the beginning.
From that time on there were sacrifices and symbolism in the sanctuary/temples and with Abraham. and finally the life of Jesus to clarify and help us understand what the Lover of our soul has done to redeem us. But it had to be that it began when sin entered.

He was faithful to what he knew and because he had a heart that was a heart single to God, it was counted to him for righteousness

What I believe about that is that the Son gave up all power and knowledge. Divested of all this to become equal to us. His strength and intelligence and knowledge is limited to each person he is in. He is completely helpless and dependent on the Father for those things. John 14:10 The Spirit is the agent who gives the power and wisdom to accomplish whatever the Father wills.

If you are speaking of Pentecost, it is clear that there are times that extra help is given. Sampson, Jesus walking on water or raising the dead. Philip transported to visit with the Ethiopian.

Resurrection power comes with the new birth. That is being redundant, they are the same thing. New birth, new creature, resurrection, all the same

If they did not have the Son mediating for them and in them they would have no desire for the Spirit

God is holy and God is spirit . I read in a favorite book of mine "the divine Spirit" and it was referring to the Son. So it depends upon the context. its semantics

I think that it's a thought that misses the point of Jesus coming to die in the flesh.

Also I was not clear on- why then receive the Holy spirit, rather Holyghost?

The key is to overcome the world,flesh, and Satin's power like Christ who is our life.
The son, correct me if Im wrong, you are saying is spirit. Then what would beThe need for Jesus to die. That simply does not add up to me.

Why because the way to defeat Satan had to be done in an actual body. You are saying He overcame the world before He enter the world

But most importantly is the reconcilating our whoselves to God. BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT.

What I think is God used His prophets to speak through the people. And those people, things, and circumstances were shadows, and advise to us today. ......Since these last Days He spoke to us through His son..

Then it cant be both. I don't believe you can seperate God the son from His physical nature.

Because His Father was God His mother was Mary. How that happened Idk. What that looks like I can only finitely imagine.

The only thing I can give is that in symbol, people b4 hand could have heard the gospel.
Why did Abel present a reasonable sacrifice while cain did not. Why were Sacrifices even needed?

Anyway I think thats all I have for this discussion.
Interesting thought but it doesn't pass the scriptural test.

 

[leroy]

I think that it's a thought that misses the point of Jesus coming to die in the flesh.

For a parent to lay down their life for their children, it does not necessarily mean physical death. It is a death to their own whims and desires and plans to meet the needs of their children. This is what the Son did. He sacrificed more than we can begin to understand. That death at the time of Eden had nothing to do with blood and torture. Imagine leaving the beauty and peace of heaven and the company of His Father and angels to be the Seed of the woman. Living within every son of Adam and doing everything He could to draw that soul back to the Father and out of the hands of Satan. Not only that but to be drug through the slime of evil in our lives and bearing it all, on a personal level, out of love for us His ungrateful creation.
This is a death or sacrifice that makes those hours after His arrest until the cross a pic-nick in comparison. I don't wish to sound glib but there is no comparison.
You believe He lives in us, Yes? The thought that He could only live in us after the He left this earth seems very odd. If He could live in us now why not in Eden?

Coming to die in the flesh???
Death was the outcome of sin. No reprieve, no commutation of that sentence. I believe that the plan of redemption was to give us a different life, a divine life, but we have to let the Adam nature / life die. That is why we are told to carry our cross daily. The son of Mary had to die to demonstrate that a new life would come out of it a human life dependent upon a divine union. The Son did not die, that would be impossible. I believe He was so intimately connected to Jesus that He felt all the physical and emotional feelings Jesus was feeling as he was being tortured and crucified but He did not die. It was the eternal life in the Son that brought the son of Mary out of the tomb.

Also I was not clear on- why then receive the Holy spirit, rather Holyghost?

To me this is clearly semantics. God is one and the 'division' of the trinity are for us simple minded humans to grasp the different aspects of divinity. Consider all the different names that are given. each has a reason and purpose for us to see the all encompassing nature of God. Don't be distracted by the Adversaries trickery in trying to figure out and argue about if there is a Ghost or a Spirit.

The key is to overcome the world,flesh, and Satin's power like Christ who is our life.

Christ's resurrection life in Mary's son is a life where the devil has no power. Satan could not come to Jesus and tempt him anymore. The fallen nature was dead and destroyed. It is like velcro the fuzzy part was our Adam nature. It was gone and the hooks of Satan had no place to grab. The resurrection life is ours to experience. A life of continual obedience is the result of the new birth.

The son, correct me if Im wrong, you are saying is spirit. Then what would beThe need for Jesus to die. That simply does not add up to me.

Let me ask, was the Son spirit or human at creation?
If Jesus was born of the seed of David according to the flesh then death was inevitable. He had Adam's nature and it had to die. The Son had a divine nature and that cannot physically die because it is not physical, because He was God

Why because the way to defeat Satan had to be done in an actual body. You are saying He overcame the world before He enter the world

He as Spirit was in mankind to aide them in overcoming.

But most importantly is the reconcilating our whoselves to God. BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT.

Our Father has taken a long time to bring us to peace with Him, for He has no motivations to do us damage. He is a perfect healer in every circumstance. He will justify, sanctify and glorify us in due season.

What I think is God used His prophets to speak through the people. And those people, things, and circumstances were shadows, and advise to us today. ......Since these last Days He spoke to us through His son..

Yes He spoke to us through all these things but we would have had no appetite for them or any ability to understand unless the seed was in us giving us a desire for such things.
Yes He spoke to us through Jesus. He showed us how it is that He saves us and we can see it with clarity. Be as Jesus was. Live as He lived. Lay down your life and Let the Son be your life.

Then it cant be both. I don't believe you can seperate God the son from His physical nature.

When did His physical nature come on the scene? 2000 years ago. It seems that in your understanding He was separate from the physical nature before Jesus born

Because His Father was God His mother was Mary. How that happened Idk. What that looks like I can only finitely imagine.

The only thing I can give is that in symbol, people b4 hand could have heard the gospel.
Why did Abel present a reasonable sacrifice while cain did not. Why were Sacrifices even needed?

After sin entered the Seed was given. Able had that Seed which gave him what he needed to obey the request of God. Cain also had it but he turned away from the still small voice of the Seed

Anyway I think thats all I have for this discussion.
Interesting thought but it doesn't pass the scriptural test.

 

[leroy]

That is not what that means. We know that Jesus was the Lamb and was slain around 30-33 A.D. There is simply no way of getting around that. That was the one and only time he was slain. If he had been slain before, "from the foundation of the world," then his being slain again was needless and meaningless.

Parents can lay down their lives for their children in extremely painful ways. However, in most cases it does not mean a physical death. The death that was experienced at the time of the rebellion was like this. Laying off all that He was as God and becoming the Seed of the woman. There was no torture or physical death, because He was not physical but spirit, and as such live in all His children. They had lost their life and He came to give them His own life. If a union of true intimacy occurs between God and man then that eternal life would be theirs and could never be taken away.

There is nothing in the OT to even imply that there had been a sacrifice already for sins. In fact, the whole point of the law was to be "our guardian until Christ came" (Gal. 3:24).

To become the Seed of the woman was a sacrifice beyond our ability to comprehend. If He had not sacrificed Himself right then and there, Adam and Eve would have had nothing in them to counteract the enmity of Satan against their Creator. By sacrificing His Son to become the Seed, He was giving the first pare an enmity, a divine enmity against Satan. They could look to Satan through the eyes of God with His enmity for sin.
I suspect that I can not explain this to your satisfaction if I wrote volumes. So all I can say is go to your closet, without any preconceived notions and ask the Father if what I am saying is true.

What "slain from the foundation of the world" means is that it was God's plan from the foundation of the world to have his Son be the sacrifice for sins. Again:

He gave up His life in heaven to become our life if we would accept it. this giving up was so profound. The sacrifice of the Father and Son to save us ...... well, what can I say?
This He did so that we might be led of Him to our own sacrifice our being slain. In that mutual death we will rise from our tomb a new creature.

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (ESV)

1Co 5:7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. (ESV)

Yes, I had to 'cleans out' the old leaven of religious dogma before the truth could pass through me

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. (ESV)

1Pe 1:18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold,
1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
1Pe 1:20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
1Pe 1:21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (ESV)


Why should "he light everyone that came into the world"? Is there a verse that says he should or did or was going to, from the Fall onward?

If He was the "light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world" Wouldn't that include every man including Adam and all his offspring? Not just those who were born after the birth in the manger?
It seems self evident.

It often gives us humans a feeling of safety to be able to label someone or something that categorizes. In that way we can throwout the baby with the bathwater.
The Reformation? Was there any other. People often say, "Back in the Reformation" as if it ended some time ago. Light has been revealed starting with Wycliffe and Luther if the reform was complete we would not be here.

 

[Corinth77777]

For a parent to lay down their life for their children, it does not necessarily mean physical death. It is a death to their own whims and desires and plans to meet the needs of their children. This is what the Son did. He sacrificed more than we can begin to understand. That death at the time of Eden had nothing to do with blood and torture. Imagine leaving the beauty and peace of heaven and the company of His Father and angels to be the Seed of the woman. Living within every son of Adam and doing everything He could to draw that soul back to the Father and out of the hands of Satan. Not only that but to be drug through the slime of evil in our lives and bearing it all, on a personal level, out of love for us His ungrateful creation.
This is a death or sacrifice that makes those hours after His arrest until the cross a pic-nick in comparison. I don't wish to sound glib but there is no comparison.
You believe He lives in us, Yes? The thought that He could only live in us after the He left this earth seems very odd. If He could live in us now why not in Eden?

Coming to die in the flesh???
Death was the outcome of sin. No reprieve, no commutation of that sentence. I believe that the plan of redemption was to give us a different life, a divine life, but we have to let the Adam nature / life die. That is why we are told to carry our cross daily. The son of Mary had to die to demonstrate that a new life would come out of it a human life dependent upon a divine union. The Son did not die, that would be impossible. I believe He was so intimately connected to Jesus that He felt all the physical and emotional feelings Jesus was feeling as he was being tortured and crucified but He did not die. It was the eternal life in the Son that brought the son of Mary out of the tomb.

To me this is clearly semantics. God is one and the 'division' of the trinity are for us simple minded humans to grasp the different aspects of divinity. Consider all the different names that are given. each has a reason and purpose for us to see the all encompassing nature of God. Don't be distracted by the Adversaries trickery in trying to figure out and argue about if there is a Ghost or a Spirit.

Christ's resurrection life in Mary's son is a life where the devil has no power. Satan could not come to Jesus and tempt him anymore. The fallen nature was dead and destroyed. It is like velcro the fuzzy part was our Adam nature. It was gone and the hooks of Satan had no place to grab. The resurrection life is ours to experience. A life of continual obedience is the result of the new birth.

Let me ask, was the Son spirit or human at creation?
If Jesus was born of the seed of David according to the flesh then death was inevitable. He had Adam's nature and it had to die. The Son had a divine nature and that cannot physically die because it is not physical, because He was God


He as Spirit was in mankind to aide them in overcoming.

Our Father has taken a long time to bring us to peace with Him, for He has no motivations to do us damage. He is a perfect healer in every circumstance. He will justify, sanctify and glorify us in due season.

Yes He spoke to us through all these things but we would have had no appetite for them or any ability to understand unless the seed was in us giving us a desire for such things.
Yes He spoke to us through Jesus. He showed us how it is that He saves us and we can see it with clarity. Be as Jesus was. Live as He lived. Lay down your life and Let the Son be your life.

When did His physical nature come on the scene? 2000 years ago. It seems that in your understanding He was separate from the physical nature before Jesus born

After sin entered the Seed was given. Able had that Seed which gave him what he needed to obey the request of God. Cain also had it but he turned away from the still small voice of the Seed

I think there is too much speculation where the Bible is silent

 

[Indentured Servant]

It is written..."But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matt 24:36)

Yes, only the Father knows; however, Jesus openly taught, "The Father and I are One."

Jesus didn't discount His personal knowing with this statement, but only that neither men nor angels know. If we believe His statement, "the Father and I are One," then we can certainly assume He knew/knows.

 

[Corinth77777]

I think there is too much speculation where the Bible is silent

But as for the terms Holy Spirit and Holyghost being different that is not speculation. There is a difference and I doubt I really argue with anyone. More so I like to study and try things on to see if scripture backs those ideals up. That's how I like to approach certain concepts

I believe Holy Ghost definitely refers to power.
I will share EJ article and you Leyroy see then if you yourself see the difference.

@Leyroy

 

[Corinth77777]

EJ's article

The Holy Spirit and The Holy Ghost...There is a Difference - Ericka D. James, Speaker, Trainer, Prophetic Strategist

Truth #1: The Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost Are Not The Same Thing After I finished the Receiving The Keys to the Kingdom Class on Thursday, I received a great question on the first Truth that I wanted to share with you. This understanding is critical in realizing one of the reasons the Body […]

search.app

 

[leroy]

EJ's article

The Holy Spirit and The Holy Ghost...There is a Difference - Ericka D. James, Speaker, Trainer, Prophetic Strategist

Truth #1: The Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost Are Not The Same Thing After I finished the Receiving The Keys to the Kingdom Class on Thursday, I received a great question on the first Truth that I wanted to share with you. This understanding is critical in realizing one of the reasons the Body […]

search.app

I read the article and I looked in the lexicon and the same Greek word is used for both. Why the writers of King James used a different word...well you would have to refer to them as it is unknown to me.
It seems the bottom line is that God does not deal in semantics. The power of the resurrection life is stated in Romans 6. We were crucified buried and resurrected with Him and sin has no dominion over us. our fallen nature was destroyed.
This is Father's declaration about us and if we believe what He believes then we will see the effects in our life.

 

[leroy]

But as for the terms Holy Spirit and Holyghost being different that is not speculation. There is a difference and I doubt I really argue with anyone. More so I like to study and try things on to see if scripture backs those ideals up. That's how I like to approach certain concepts

I believe Holy Ghost definitely refers to power.
I will share EJ article and you Leyroy see then if you yourself see the difference.

@Leyroy

I would ask then, is there a scripture that says Ghost and Spirit are two different words? other wise would it be speculation?
When God promised the Seed to the woman in Genesis it was referring to Eve as she was the one who was first deceived. And by extension to everyone of us as the woman, the church or bride of Christ. Is this speculation?
Is it speculation to believe that Adam and Eve were Satan's captives with a carnal mind and as such filled with hatred for God?

 

[Free]

Parents can lay down their lives for their children in extremely painful ways. However, in most cases it does not mean a physical death. The death that was experienced at the time of the rebellion was like this. Laying off all that He was as God and becoming the Seed of the woman. There was no torture or physical death, because He was not physical but spirit, and as such live in all His children. They had lost their life and He came to give them His own life. If a union of true intimacy occurs between God and man then that eternal life would be theirs and could never be taken away.

To become the Seed of the woman was a sacrifice beyond our ability to comprehend. If He had not sacrificed Himself right then and there, Adam and Eve would have had nothing in them to counteract the enmity of Satan against their Creator. By sacrificing His Son to become the Seed, He was giving the first pare an enmity, a divine enmity against Satan. They could look to Satan through the eyes of God with His enmity for sin.
I suspect that I can not explain this to your satisfaction if I wrote volumes. So all I can say is go to your closet, without any preconceived notions and ask the Father if what I am saying is true.

You're making a number of assumptions that you must support with Scripture. If it isn't stated in the Bible, then there is no need to pray about such a notion because it isn't true. The central point of the Fall and throughout the rest of Scripture, is that at the Fall mankind became separated from God and was in need of reconciliation. There was no union with God because of sin.

What the Bible is very clear on, is that the Son came in the flesh around 4 B.C. and then was crucified for our sins so we could be saved. This is what the Passover and OT sacrificial system pointed to. If the Son was sacrificed right after the Fall and indwelt people, then all of that, including his death on the cross, was not necessary.

He gave up His life in heaven to become our life if we would accept it. this giving up was so profound. The sacrifice of the Father and Son to save us ...... well, what can I say?
This He did so that we might be led of Him to our own sacrifice our being slain. In that mutual death we will rise from our tomb a new creature.

You must be careful with language such as this, as it seems to imply that we must die to atone for our own sins.

Yes, I had to 'cleans out' the old leaven of religious dogma before the truth could pass through me

That is not what those verses are saying. Christ is the Lamb who died in 30-33 A.D. for our sins, not before.

If He was the "light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world" Wouldn't that include every man including Adam and all his offspring? Not just those who were born after the birth in the manger?
It seems self evident.

Not really. The light that men had since the beginning is this:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (ESV)

So, it seems that God did provide "light" (truth and conscience) to all, but the vast majority rejected it. The light is also external, it is something people either reject or "come to" (John 3:19-21). The "true light, which gives light to everyone," could mean a couple of things, including that Jesus is the source of light for everyone who believes, for those who are saved, as in Heb. 6:4:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

What it cannot mean is that the Son dwells inside every person and has dwelt inside everyone since the Fall.

It often gives us humans a feeling of safety to be able to label someone or something that categorizes. In that way we can throwout the baby with the bathwater.
The Reformation? Was there any other. People often say, "Back in the Reformation" as if it ended some time ago. Light has been revealed starting with Wycliffe and Luther if the reform was complete we would not be here.

Why would we not be here if the Reformation was complete?

 

[JLB]

I would ask then, is there a scripture that says Ghost and Spirit are two different words? other wise would it be speculation?
When God promised the Seed to the woman in Genesis it was referring to Eve as she was the one who was first deceived. And by extension to everyone of us as the woman, the church or bride of Christ. Is this speculation?
Is it speculation to believe that Adam and Eve were Satan's captives with a carnal mind and as such filled with hatred for God?

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
Genesis 3:15


And between your seed and her Seed;


Her Seed refers to Mary, the virgin.

 

[leroy]

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
Genesis 3:15


And between your seed and her Seed;


Her Seed refers to Mary, the virgin.

Why do you think that?
The only woman in existence was Eve at that time. Where does it say Mary is woman in this verse?

 

[leroy]

You're making a number of assumptions that you must support with Scripture. If it isn't stated in the Bible, then there is no need to pray about such a notion because it isn't true. The central point of the Fall and throughout the rest of Scripture, is that at the Fall mankind became separated from God and was in need of reconciliation. There was no union with God because of sin.

What the Bible is very clear on, is that the Son came in the flesh around 4 B.C. and then was crucified for our sins so we could be saved. This is what the Passover and OT sacrificial system pointed to. If the Son was sacrificed right after the Fall and indwelt people, then all of that, including his death on the cross, was not necessary.

You hav not understood

You must be careful with language such as this, as it seems to imply that we must die to atone for our own sins.

You make me wonder. I never implied that we must die to atone for our sins. Can you quote what brought you to that conclusion. Again all I can say is that you have not understood. Maybe try again.

What it cannot mean is that the Son dwells inside every person and has dwelt inside everyone since the Fall.

If the first couple were spiritually dead and that is all they could pass on to their children how could they find their way back to God? How could they even preceive the things that have been revealed. There was nothing in them to be drawn to God. The carnal mind is enmity against God.

Why would we not be here if the Reformation was complete

The Reformation was the work of God to uncover the truth which had been buried under superstition and religious dogma. Not until the full light would be made plain. When the believers come to the fulness of the stature of the Son of God and He is glorified in His saints then the people of God could go home.

 

[Randy]

What was He before He became the Son of man?

If He is before all things, and by Him all things were created, which includes angel and human beings then He is God; God the Son.


For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. Colossians 1:16

• For by Him all things were created

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:17


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


Instead of rearranging the scripture to bend them your own understanding, why not read and believe what the scriptures say?


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


The Son stretched out the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth!


Question -

Was the heavens and the earth created by:

An angel?
A man?
God?

This doesn't change. And is cohesive with through Him, God's Son, all things were made
About the Son not just the Christ the SON. God, [singular], made the universe through Him. God, [Singular], spoke to us in these last days through Him.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom HE appointed heir of all things, and through whom also HE made the universe

When you speak in the context of the nature found in the Son not just the Christ. It's the Fathers nature. The Son is all that His Father is. God. All the fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him. [the Son] . The Son is not that fullness. IN Him is NOT Him but another. The Son testified as to the one living in Him in speaking of oneness. His God and Father. He and the Father are ONE. Jesus is begotten the Father is unbegotten. Jesus is begotten before all things. the Father is unbegotten. If the Father has a beginning it could not be by any other being. Jesus's beginning is of the Father. Hence His God and Father. The Father has no God or Father.

One God the Father FROM whom all things came and one Lord Jesus Christ THROUGH whom all things came.

The Father brought all things into existence by and through His Son long before the Christ was in the world. The Deity of the Father in the Son created. God created BY His Son.

 

[JLB]

This doesn't change. And is cohesive with through Him, God's Son, all things were made
About the Son not just the Christ the SON. God, [singular], made the universe through Him. God, [Singular], spoke to us in these last days through Him.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom HE appointed heir of all things, and through whom also HE made the universe

When you speak in the context of the nature found in the Son not just the Christ. It's the Fathers nature. The Son is all that His Father is. God. All the fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him. [the Son] . The Son is not that fullness. IN Him is NOT Him but another. The Son testified as to the one living in Him in speaking of oneness. His God and Father. He and the Father are ONE. Jesus is begotten the Father is unbegotten. Jesus is begotten before all things. the Father is unbegotten. If the Father has a beginning it could not be by any other being. Jesus's beginning is of the Father. Hence His God and Father. The Father has no God or Father.

One God the Father FROM whom all things came and one Lord Jesus Christ THROUGH whom all things came.

The Father brought all things into existence by and through His Son long before the Christ was in the world. The Deity of the Father in the Son created. God created BY His Son.

Sorry bro but you keep ignoring that the scripture plainly says all things were created by Him.


For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16


Who created all things?


God
Man
Angel

 

[leroy]

This doesn't change. And is cohesive with through Him, God's Son, all things were made
About the Son not just the Christ the SON. God, [singular], made the universe through Him. God, [Singular], spoke to us in these last days through Him.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom HE appointed heir of all things, and through whom also HE made the universe

Just as the husband submits what us to be made the wife is the one who creates it.

 

[Free]

You hav not understood

I'm fairly certain I have understood. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I haven't. But, if you think I have, then please provide clarification for where you think I have misunderstood.

You make me wonder. I never implied that we must die to atone for our sins. Can you quote what brought you to that conclusion. Again all I can say is that you have not understood. Maybe try again.

It's in the quote: "He gave up His life in heaven to become our life if we would accept it. this giving up was so profound. The sacrifice of the Father and Son to save us ...... well, what can I say? This He did so that we might be led of Him to our own sacrifice our being slain. In that mutual death we will rise from our tomb a new creature."

When you use the same language of "sacrifice" to apply both to what Jesus did for our sins and, apparently, something we must do, it can be taken to imply that we must also die to atone for our sins. If you had said something like, "that we might be led of Him to repent of our sins and die to self," then that is more clear.

If the first couple were spiritually dead and that is all they could pass on to their children how could they find their way back to God? How could they even preceive the things that have been revealed. There was nothing in them to be drawn to God. The carnal mind is enmity against God.

And, yet, some did, by God's grace. Again, there is nothing in the entirety of Scripture, that I've seen, that even suggests that the Son indwelt every person from the Fall onward. You also have to explain why evil got so bad after the Fall that God decided to wipe out everyone from the earth, except for eight people. If the Son was indwelling everyone, why only eight people?

You also have to explain why it is that since his death and resurrection, Jesus only indwells true believers, not everyone. Why would that change? Why did he even have to die on a cross if he (supposedly) was slain at the Fall? Why the sacrificial system and why the law?

The Reformation was the work of God to uncover the truth which had been buried under superstition and religious dogma. Not until the full light would be made plain. When the believers come to the fulness of the stature of the Son of God and He is glorified in His saints then the people of God could go home.

Where is that in the Bible?

So far, I have provided many passages from Scripture, which you have not addressed, and you have yet to provide any. This is a serious problem. Our doctrine must be based on Scripture, otherwise its entirely subjective and will likely lead us astray.

 

[leroy]

I'm fairly certain I have understood. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I haven't. But, if you think I have, then please provide clarification for where you think I have misunderstood.

I have made very explicit explanation about what I have come to see and your answers leave me to think, "Did he read what I wrote?" I don't think I could be any more clearer. I will for instance try to clarify a bit more in the next reply below.

It's in the quote: "He gave up His life in heaven to become our life if we would accept it. this giving up was so profound. The sacrifice of the Father and Son to save us ...... well, what can I say? This He did so that we might be led of Him to our own sacrifice our being slain. In that mutual death we will rise from our tomb a new creature."

When you use the same language of "sacrifice" to apply both to what Jesus did for our sins and, apparently, something we must do, it can be taken to imply that we must also die to atone for our sins. If you had said something like, "that we might be led of Him to repent of our sins and die to self," then that is more clear.

By "sacrifice" I mean at the entrance of sin it was the Son laying down His life to be our life because we threw our life away. Consider what it is to be God and Creator and to condescend to be so identify with humanity that He became nothing more than what we might consider to be our 'conscience'. That word 'conscience' does not even come close to what I am saying.

The following is a parable: You have a child of 3 years. You have so many plans and goals. You have a beautiful wife whom you love dearly. You both have foreknowledge that he is going to have a failed life, enslaved to a terrible man and die in poverty and misery. You and your wife council together and come up with a plan where she is willing, out of love for your son, to give you up and you have covenanted to sacrifice all the joys of the life you have planned together. The decision is heart rending but out of love for the son you both agree for you to leave her, lay down your happy life to give your son your a life of joy. You become as a seed and enter into your son to subtly guide and influence him in the path of life so that he can have all of the joys and blessings that you have sacrificed. You will have no life of your own but your life is to serve him. Often he makes bad choices and drags you through situations that are so painful to watch and they are a torture for you to bear. Yet you continue on pleading on his behalf to walk the strait and narrow. You cannot enjoy a life of your own because you are constantly working against forces that will destroy him.
Now magnify that by billions of 'son's and daughters' That is what I mean by sacrifice.
Why would God do this? He demonstrated that he would never ask His creation to do anything that he was not, first, willing to do himself. And what I see as a sacrifice, I'm not talking about blood and torture. I'm talking about giving your life away that you might receive His divine life everlasting. At the time of sin the Son gave His life away to us, to be our life and draw us back to the Father. The life that Adam had was now gone. Spiritually extinct. and what he is asking is that we surrender 'sacrifice' our life that we might receive His. The sacrifice we surrender to is not to atone. It is to give up this living dead life because it is headed to the grave anyway.
with the promise of Genesis 3:15 I believe it was given right then when we needed it most. there was nothing in us to return to God, the had perished and we were left with the nature of Satan. Filled with enmity and fear of the One who created and loved us.
If we have the promise of the Son being in us now why would Love withhold that Gift for 4000 years?
That is why understanding who Jesus was in his humanity, that he was one with us, just as we are. He was the son of Mary, David and Adam with all of the weaknesses that we have. The divine Son of God, an eternal being, a spirit being, was given full acquiescence by Jesus to rule his human life to express the divine life through him in his physical body. So intimate was that union they were as one. His purpose was to make us AT-ONE with the Father. He does the atoning He brings us to our cross and lays down with us and helps us do what is impossible for us to do on our on.
By surrendering His life to live within each of us, He would replace that which perished in Eden. As a replacement spiritual life He could be our spiritual eyes and ears he could provide us with a heart drawn out to the Father, which was no longer there in our natural physical life. He can provide us with a love for the Father and the willingness sacrifice our will to obey the Father and to listen and hear the Father speaking to our soul.
If we are told that it is God who dwells in us to both will and do according to Hid good pleasure. If He will live in us and walk in us and be our God [2 Cor. 6:16 now, why not starting in Eden?
Well, I could go on but if this is insufficient to clarify.... What more can I say.

And, yet, some did, by God's grace. Again, there is nothing in the entirety of Scripture, that I've seen, that even suggests that the Son indwelt every person from the Fall onward. You also have to explain why evil got so bad after the Fall that God decided to wipe out everyone from the earth, except for eight people. If the Son was indwelling everyone, why only eight people?

Can you not see that God does not force us but draws us...everyone of us. Billions resist and parish. Having God living in us does not guarantee salvation, but it does give us an ability to be receptive, which we otherwise could not do. There are those who crucify Him afresh. Paul said he could be a cast away 'reprobate'. Hebrews talks about those who turn way after having received knowledge. Information is not salvation salvation knowledge comes through an internal experience with God. Matthew 16 speaks of this when Peter came to the understanding of who Jesus was. It came by divine revelation not the things of nature, nor did he study it out or have a local rabbi explain it.
I can give you a specific text but, how could God not give to those in the past what is so paramountly important that He gives to us now?
Religious dogma has put God in a box

You also have to explain why it is that since his death and resurrection, Jesus only indwells true believers, not everyone. Why would that change? Why did he even have to die on a cross if he (supposedly) was slain at the Fall? Why the sacrificial system and why the law?

Jesus died because the Adam nature was condemned to die. The Son did not die because you cannot kill God. I will say that he was so intimately connected with the son of Mary that he felt and experienced all of the physical and emotional pain right up until all of the life of Adam was drained out of him. The Son lay silent within Jesus until the Father called him Forth. It was the eternal divine life of the Son that brought forth Jesus from the tomb. Adam's nature did not come out of that tomb. It was made extinct. He became a new Adam or progenitor of a new race of beings. New creatures where divinity and humanity are combined. Over these new beings Satan has no power.

Where is that in the Bible?

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Eph. 4
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2 Thes.2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1 Cor.13

So far, I have provided many passages from Scripture, which you have not addressed, and you have yet to provide any. This is a serious problem. Our doctrine must be based on Scripture, otherwise its entirely subjective and will likely lead us astray.

 

[Corinth77777]

I have made very explicit explanation about what I have come to see and your answers leave me to think, "Did he read what I wrote?" I don't think I could be any more clearer. I will for instance try to clarify a bit more in the next reply below.

By "sacrifice" I mean at the entrance of sin it was the Son laying down His life to be our life because we threw our life away. Consider what it is to be God and Creator and to condescend to be so identify with humanity that He became nothing more than what we might consider to be our 'conscience'. That word 'conscience' does not even come close to what I am saying.

The following is a parable: You have a child of 3 years. You have so many plans and goals. You have a beautiful wife whom you love dearly. You both have foreknowledge that he is going to have a failed life, enslaved to a terrible man and die in poverty and misery. You and your wife council together and come up with a plan where she is willing, out of love for your son, to give you up and you have covenanted to sacrifice all the joys of the life you have planned together. The decision is heart rending but out of love for the son you both agree for you to leave her, lay down your happy life to give your son your a life of joy. You become as a seed and enter into your son to subtly guide and influence him in the path of life so that he can have all of the joys and blessings that you have sacrificed. You will have no life of your own but your life is to serve him. Often he makes bad choices and drags you through situations that are so painful to watch and they are a torture for you to bear. Yet you continue on pleading on his behalf to walk the strait and narrow. You cannot enjoy a life of your own because you are constantly working against forces that will destroy him.
Now magnify that by billions of 'son's and daughters' That is what I mean by sacrifice.
Why would God do this? He demonstrated that he would never ask His creation to do anything that he was not, first, willing to do himself. And what I see as a sacrifice, I'm not talking about blood and torture. I'm talking about giving your life away that you might receive His divine life everlasting. At the time of sin the Son gave His life away to us, to be our life and draw us back to the Father. The life that Adam had was now gone. Spiritually extinct. and what he is asking is that we surrender 'sacrifice' our life that we might receive His. The sacrifice we surrender to is not to atone. It is to give up this living dead life because it is headed to the grave anyway.
with the promise of Genesis 3:15 I believe it was given right then when we needed it most. there was nothing in us to return to God, the had perished and we were left with the nature of Satan. Filled with enmity and fear of the One who created and loved us.
If we have the promise of the Son being in us now why would Love withhold that Gift for 4000 years?
That is why understanding who Jesus was in his humanity, that he was one with us, just as we are. He was the son of Mary, David and Adam with all of the weaknesses that we have. The divine Son of God, an eternal being, a spirit being, was given full acquiescence by Jesus to rule his human life to express the divine life through him in his physical body. So intimate was that union they were as one. His purpose was to make us AT-ONE with the Father. He does the atoning He brings us to our cross and lays down with us and helps us do what is impossible for us to do on our on.
By surrendering His life to live within each of us, He would replace that which perished in Eden. As a replacement spiritual life He could be our spiritual eyes and ears he could provide us with a heart drawn out to the Father, which was no longer there in our natural physical life. He can provide us with a love for the Father and the willingness sacrifice our will to obey the Father and to listen and hear the Father speaking to our soul.
If we are told that it is God who dwells in us to both will and do according to Hid good pleasure. If He will live in us and walk in us and be our God [2 Cor. 6:16 now, why not starting in Eden?
Well, I could go on but if this is insufficient to clarify.... What more can I say.

Can you not see that God does not force us but draws us...everyone of us. Billions resist and parish. Having God living in us does not guarantee salvation, but it does give us an ability to be receptive, which we otherwise could not do. There are those who crucify Him afresh. Paul said he could be a cast away 'reprobate'. Hebrews talks about those who turn way after having received knowledge. Information is not salvation salvation knowledge comes through an internal experience with God. Matthew 16 speaks of this when Peter came to the understanding of who Jesus was. It came by divine revelation not the things of nature, nor did he study it out or have a local rabbi explain it.
I can give you a specific text but, how could God not give to those in the past what is so paramountly important that He gives to us now?
Religious dogma has put God in a box

Jesus died because the Adam nature was condemned to die. The Son did not die because you cannot kill God. I will say that he was so intimately connected with the son of Mary that he felt and experienced all of the physical and emotional pain right up until all of the life of Adam was drained out of him. The Son lay silent within Jesus until the Father called him Forth. It was the eternal divine life of the Son that brought forth Jesus from the tomb. Adam's nature did not come out of that tomb. It was made extinct. He became a new Adam or progenitor of a new race of beings. New creatures where divinity and humanity are combined. Over these new beings Satan has no power.


Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Eph. 4
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2 Thes.2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1 Cor.13

Jesus never seperates Himself and says I obey the son in me.

He does say: He always does what is pleasing to the father and the Father never leaves Him alone.
.........

But what is interesting is

He had His own will which means to me He had His own Spirit.

Which shows Jesus has a Spirit, and God has Spirit.

Makes me also think of:

Matthew 11:14
And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

 

[JLB]

Why do you think that?
The only woman in existence was Eve at that time. Where does it say Mary is woman in this verse?

Because the context of the verse extends to the future and becomes a prophecy.


And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
Genesis 3:15


Seed refers to Jesus. Which makes “her” Mary.


Do you understand that the feet of Jesus were bruised as He was on the cross?


A person that is crucified on a cross is struggling to keep pushing their self up to keep from suffocating which caused their heel to be bruised.