Jesus is not YHVH

[JLB]

There is only one Lord God. The one that made everything, the One Jesus said is greater than him.

Jesus is the Lord God, who is coming with His saints at the end of the age to gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5


Brother Mike, your invited.


JLB

 

[smaller]

This is Oneness, it's wrong. Oneness assumes Jesus is the literal spiritual word of some type of god machine. There is also seperation you claim is not there.

The Trinity does posture "manifestations." That is not the same as Oneness, though Oneness as Trinitarian observations is there. Trinity in the classic sense recognizes Oneness and 3 Manifestations.

It's the best resolution to the matters, given the abundance of lesser/alternative sights.

Also 1 Tim 3:16 God was manifest in the flesh is a known KJV exclusive. This text only appears after the 4th century, when Trinity came into being. The KJV was good at changing text to support Trinity. It's in no known early text.

That is quite a leap Mike. God being with us in the flesh is a well documented reality cover to cover.

I really don't know why you insist to put yourself out of Trinitarian understandings when it's scripturally justified sight. For me it's been a great dissector to avoid various camps of heresies.

Quod Manifestatum. He manifested.

However:
1Jn_4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

It was the Son that came in the flesh. The one that had always been with the Father.

Yes, understood, but nevertheless ONE GOD. Trinitarian understandings do not present a separation or The Son as a separate or different God.

The instant people relegate Jesus to a lesser or separated status all kinds of other heresies accompany those sights in the process. The most common I've seen is that Jesus was internally a sinner like everyone else i.e. He had evil/adulterous thoughts.

This is a common leap into heresy that usually accompanies non Trin understandings. And the people who end up there end up trapped and can't see it any other way.

They also seem to use this to "justify and excuse" their own internal wickedness. To me this is just a common trap of the demonic intents to mitigate Jesus and falsely justify ourselves.

Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

However, the Father did Call him God.
There is not one, but two.

I'd suggest you are not listening well to Trinitarian understandings. Three manifestations doesn't equal 3 separate Gods. Or 2 separate Gods. One God, 3 Manifestations.

Trinity never makes them one in scripture. It's a mystery of Christian faith.
Oneness is a confused mess invented in 1914

Trinitarian understandings do not propose multiple Gods, but One God.

Jesus is one in the Father, be we are one in him. Don't make us the Father though.

Entirely different subject. If Christ dwells in us He dwells in us with our faults intact.

However God does dwell in us by faith. There is no separate God the Father somewhere else. Everything exists within the encompassing of God. There is no 'place' where God isn't. Like God is sitting in His Granite Chair somewhere else and we are sitting here, apart from Him. That isn't the case.

The Word was made flesh, the only begotten of the Father. Just means what God spoke in Psalm came to pass, does not make Jesus some part of a word god system.

There is a long list of Divine Attributes Mike. Living Word is one of those Divine Attributes of God. Jesus was not "a part" of God. That implies separation. Jesus Was/Is/Always Will Be God. It is an interesting contemplation, the Expression or Image of God put into creation itself. The Creator's Participation in His Own creation is quite fascinating to consider.

Act_13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Jesus came from the spoke word, it came to pass, we are also born of the Word of God, but that don't make us the Father Either.

You are implying Jesus as "a creation" and not God. There is no doubt that Jesus had a "created human" body, just like ours, except without sin. This is where His Participation transpired. In His Body. We can look upon that matter in several interesting fashions. But the Fullness of God existed in Christ. That is a very difficult matter to grasp, because we tend to see The Father "somewhere else." That wasn't the case.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(Isa 9:6 KJV)

The mighty El, the KJV switched this. Jesus is the Father of eternity as we are born through him.

Really don't know where you think you are taking any of what your posture might be Mike. Do you have some kind of a bottom line disagreement with the Trinity that you could actually convey where it's clearly understood?

Jesus has His own throne, is God the Son, is not His Father else we don't have an advocate. Is the King of Kings.

OK. Here is your bolded quote one: Jesus is the Father
And your bolded quote two: the Son, is not His Father

Trinity defines this as Manifestations of One. The Manifestation of God, the Son, The Image, The Expression of God, One with The Father.

There is only one Lord God. The one that made everything, the One Jesus said is greater than him.

And the Trinity doesn't claim it otherwise.

 

[Brother Mike]

Jesus is the Lord God, who is coming with His saints at the end of the age to gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5


Brother Mike, your invited.


JLB

Jud_1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Heb_1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

No, your trying to take the word god, and smash 2 persons into that word. God is a class of something, Satan is god of this World, but he is not our god, neither is he in the same class as god, just a deity who is immortal. The definition of Theos.

Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Joh_20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus is our lord, our God. The Lord God is our Father. There is only one Lord God. Jesus must be Lord to us, and He is God the Son.
It was Jesus Christ as God the Son who came down in the flesh. He has his own throne.

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Jesus has a Father also, He sat in His Fathers throne.

You don't want to ignore scriptures to believe a fallacy of man. You don't want to remove Jesus or make him part of a god system.
We are created in their image, and the description of the Father in Eze and Jesus in Rev is very different.
you won't have issues if you don't transpose concepts of man over the scriptures.

Jesus said, my father in Heaven. He is not a liar, we just don't discount what He said.

The Trinity does posture "manifestations." That is not the same as Oneness, though Oneness as Trinitarian observations is there. Trinity in the classic sense recognizes Oneness and 3 Manifestations.

It's the best resolution to the matters, given the abundance of lesser/alternative sights.



That is quite a leap Mike. God being with us in the flesh is a well documented reality cover to cover.

I really don't know why you insist to put yourself out of Trinitarian understandings when it's scripturally justified sight. For me it's been a great dissector to avoid various camps of heresies.

However God does dwell in us by faith. There is no separate God the Father somewhere else. Everything exists within the encompassing of God. There is no 'place' where God isn't. Like God is sitting in His Granite Chair somewhere else and we are sitting here, apart from Him. That isn't the case.


You are implying Jesus as "a creation" and not God. There is no doubt that Jesus had a "created human" body, just like ours, except without sin. This is where His Participation transpired. In His Body. We can look upon that matter in several interesting fashions. But the Fullness of God existed in Christ. That is a very difficult matter to grasp, because we tend to see The Father "somewhere else." That wasn't the case.


Really don't know where you think you are taking any of what your posture might be Mike. Do you have some kind of a bottom line disagreement with the Trinity that you could actually convey where it's clearly understood?


OK. Here is your bolded quote one: Jesus is the Father
And your bolded quote two: the Son, is not His Father

Trinity defines this as Manifestations of One. The Manifestation of God, the Son, The Image, The Expression of God, One with The Father.


And the Trinity doesn't claim it otherwise.

I meant to say Jesus is not the Father if I mistyped.

Read what I posted to JLB above, your asking me to ignore a bunch of scriptures and that is not going to happen.

God spoke, today a son is born. That word manifested in the flesh of a baby, the Son of God was sent into a human being.
God is not omnipresent either, there are a whole lot of places God is nowhere to be found, it's also not a scripture.
The scripture says there are some without God, without hope in this World.

The original Nicene Creed says Jesus is God of God, the Same essence, substance as His Father. It does not make 1 God, it makes both equally in the God substance or class. The Holy Spirit was not included in this God substance until 381ad.

Here is part of your Modern creed . The Original Athanasian Creed.
Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother............

the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity

So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord........

Jesus was never begotten before the Worlds, He was only begotten as a human child by the spoken Word of God.
Jesus is not the essence of His Mother.
The Trinity is not to be worshiped.
The Holy Spirit is not our Lord, no scripture denotes this, it's fallacy.
You must be Catholic.

Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.

True

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God,] Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

True, Jesus is God, like His Father, though only Begotten through the Word in a human body.

By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];
True, all things were made for and because of Jesus, nothing was made that was not made to be for and in the Son of God.

Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;
True, Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Not sure what they mean by incarnate.

[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'— they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]

Let them condemn away, I am not Roman Catholic.

Now if you believe something other than the posted doctrines, then you don't believe in Trinity, your a modelist and are making up your own stuff. In which case your running on about Nothing mentioning Trinity.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Are you saying it will be God the Father coming with the saints?

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

Here is the testimony of God the Father -

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8


Here is the testimony of Paul -

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

and Isaiah -

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3


And Jesus Himself

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Revelation 22:12-13

and Isaiah

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Are you saying it will be God the Father coming with the saints?

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

Here is the testimony of God the Father -

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8


Here is the testimony of Paul -

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

and Isaiah -

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3


And Jesus Himself

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Revelation 22:12-13

and Isaiah

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6


JLB

There is only one Lord God the Saviour. He sent His son and crucified him for us.

Act_3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

1Jn_4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

your mixing up scriptures and not looking at other scriptures.

There is only one Lord God, the Saviour who sent His son to us. Jesus is our personal savior, our personal Lord, we are begotten through Him. Jesus is the only one begotten through the spoken Word here on Earth.

Joh_3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

It's not that hard of a concept, Jesus was given glory by the Father before the World was, always been here with the Father. Is the I Am as His Father.

How many scriptures you need? A Father Sent His Son to us......... Pretty simple.

Isa_53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Remove the Roman Catholic Doctrine from your thinking, and you will get it, or believe the first original 325ad one. It's close enough.

I know you don't ignore other scriptures, but all of us can see things not so clear with other things in the way. Look at this, compare everything.

Be blessed.

Mike.

 

[smaller]

The Son has always existed Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

The Son has always existed Mike.

Well, then we need to back up again as in much of our other complicated discussions and just state again where we are at.
I don't consider many other peoples post but yours and JLB with a few others.

Your mentioned that Christ (The anointing) is in us by faith lets me know that I am not wasting time, that is only reveled.

From my understanding of all the scriptures together.
There is a Son, and Father.
We were made in the image of both of them.
That does not make us fully or exactly like the Father, and made in that image from a human form perspective.
Everything Made of the Father was for and because and through the Son of God, God the Son.
The Father gave all power and dominion to the Son of God who will turn it back over to Him once every enemy is under His feet.

There is one Lord God, the Savior. He sent His son, He crucified His son.
There is Our Lord personally, or God, true God the Lord Jesus Christ.
He is not the Father, we also have a Father in heaven.
The Son is our advocate with the Father. It takes two to have an mediator. (Gal) Before there was the Law, between us and God.

so, when you mention Trinity, Oneness, then it throws me off in what you're trying to get across. The only reference I have is the original doctrines, unless there are new doctrines to consider that copied and changed the original's.

The simple answer though is that there are TWO, Father and Son. Either having a creation date given in any scriptures.
The Holy Spirit does not speak of his own, and would not exalt himself above the one He was sent to witness. The Lord Jesus.
He was sent that we may have access to the Father through One Spirit.

Eph_2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

This instant access creates a condition of God with us, or in us. Where we are at, it's logically correct to Say God is there also.

I think it might do good to bring this down a few levels in case someone else wants to follow.

Be blessed and thank you for the time responding.

Mike.

 

[smaller]

From my understanding of all the scriptures together.
There is a Son, and Father.
We were made in the image of both of them.
That does not make us fully or exactly like the Father, and made in that image from a human form perspective.

There is an inherent issue when we start dealing with terms like "image." As in image of what or in what ways, etc. This arena tends to bring us into abstract concept discussions.

For abstracts or connecting images to reality as the scriptures may propose they provide some connecting points. And these imho are largely for contemplations and experiences on our end. For example we have Word of God, we have contemplations/considerations of Word, and then we seek to reach out into that abstraction and experience the abstraction. I might term this the difference between the literal and the allegorical. Or flesh/external sights opposed to Spiritual insights. Both have their place. Another might be the created/thing vantage point compared to the Creator vantage point.

So, image. Difficult territory from the start. I lean to not having or being able to connect Spiritual matters with flesh matters. For me trying to force fit christian theology into "thing" concepts skirts the edges of idolatry. I am content with image concepts not being or pointed to "thing" connections, but Spiritual. Some might call this the differences between "realms" i.e. the realm of the Spirit vs. the realm of things/creation.

We kind of have to feel or experience our ways between these matters because they are dissimilar. Again, I generally distrust any notions of theology that express "things" as spiritual. For example, the flesh of the son was a created body. That is technically speaking, a thing. And in this created thing, His Body, dwelt the Other, the Son. There was then the Image of God in Bodily Form. What the trinity terms the "hypostatic" union.

But let's just face that the whole contemplations of these matters are problematic on the surface. Why? Because from the creature or created vantage point we lean toward relating to "things" in "locale's." The Spiritual aspects aren't necessarily the same. I've considered for example that Living Word of God in flesh was an example of confinement or containment. And that is exactly where the contemplations get very difficult.

So, if I may observe, The Spirit of God can not be remedied as any "thing" as we perceive in the creature/created sense. But there is an "interface" provided with The Son, the connection between flesh/creature/created and The Creator. God Spiritual is "expressed" or "confined" if you will, into FORM that we can relate to in our "created" state, that is Word Image/Flesh Image, that we might interface our present reality with eternal reality. The flesh/creature mind only isn't really capable of doing this. It discounts, by it's nature, eternal things, which really are not "things" to begin with. They are worthless to the temporal created mind that is basically forced to deal with the literal/here and now.

When we are granted or given the Holy Spirit, we have "interface" with eternal matters. If you have ever experienced engagements with the Spirit of Truth, so to speak, and I know you have just as most of us have, perspectives change, and are in effect, vivified. Transposed if you will from one arena to the other.

1 Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The whole package of Trinitarian understandings, or any other construct, remains intellectual or surface understandings, trying to explain Spirit into Image/created. And as such it is problematic on the surface. There are so many "images" of God that the texts provide that alone is a very very long study/contemplation. We may observe the human body of Jesus in the Gospels, but by the time we get to Revelation 1, the sights are vastly different, and do not resemble a 'strictly human' body whatsoever, but an Image of same on Spiritual Steroids.

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

The "like" "as" terms are really somewhat feeble attempts to connect our minds to "things" we might relate to, but they are not "literally" what they are described "AS" or "LIKE."

And even as I read the above the frailties of my own creature sights came to mind, as I never before "saw" for example that not only His Hair was 'white' but also his HEAD. Reading is problematic, no? So many details slip past the surface in our CARNAL FLESH minds and we tend to overlook some things and see only in PART.

Everything Made of the Father was for and because and through the Son of God, God the Son. The Father gave all power and dominion to the Son of God who will turn it back over to Him once every enemy is under His feet.
There is one Lord God, the Savior. He sent His son, He crucified His son.
There is Our Lord personally, or God, true God the Lord Jesus Christ.
He is not the Father, we also have a Father in heaven.
The Son is our advocate with the Father. It takes two to have an mediator. (Gal) Before there was the Law, between us and God.

It remains problematic to "divide" or "separate" The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit. We know they are still ONE from the scriptures, eternally existing. It's just hard to wrap our minds around such concepts. They are "attempts" to explain to us in creature/created senses.

so, when you mention Trinity, Oneness, then it throws me off in what you're trying to get across. The only reference I have is the original doctrines, unless there are new doctrines to consider that copied and changed the original's.

I seldom, if ever, resort to claims that the Bible was tampered with to fit the doctrines. We know from Jesus that for all intents and purposes the Word speaks of Him, in it's entirety. It is His Conveyance to the created arena. And there are many "purposes" or "proposals" therein to engage.

The simple answer though is that there are TWO, Father and Son. Either having a creation date given in any scriptures.

The entire posture that puts Word into "thing/time/place" constructs only are to me false postures. God in Christ has "always" been "Living Word." Jesus has advised us for example in Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4, that man will LIVE by every Word of God. That again is difficult for us to perceive, but to me this takes Gods Words OUT of the literal only senses and into the Eternal Realm. Every Word that God has spoken should be seen as Eternal in Nature.

The Holy Spirit does not speak of his own, and would not exalt himself above the one He was sent to witness. The Lord Jesus. He was sent that we may have access to the Father through One Spirit.

I'd generally agree with that sight. And that sight IS an "experience." The Words can only take us so far in the literal senses. They are vastly different, when "vivified" by the Holy Spirit i.e. no longer black ink on paper or black/red digital constructs on a white digital page.

Eph_2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
This instant access creates a condition of God with us, or in us. Where we are at, it's logically correct to Say God is there also.

True.

I think it might do good to bring this down a few levels in case someone else wants to follow.
Be blessed and thank you for the time responding.
Mike.

The material is somewhat "esoteric." And perhaps meant to be that way.

 

[Brother Mike]

Went over 1,000 words, had to chop it. If it sounds confusing let me know. Sorry.

Hey Brother, thank you for typing all that, took several read through to fully understand what your points were. You don't write with the understanding of a new believe or even high school.

Christians attack our deity, it's why I get so upset at believes as they should know better but they are asleep.

First, there can be no understanding from a Trinitarian perspective. Its a Roman Catholic doctrine used to control people. You go against their creed, the Spanish inquisition come visiting you back then. How quickly we forget where our catch phrases and doctrines originate.
Jesus is the Word of God was invented in 1914 Apostolic oneness, they also tell you that men should not even wear a wedding ring.
That phrase has stuck and spread. Jesus name means the Word, He was sent in the Last days to Speak the Word. Nothing else, he is more than just a word. He actually is a person, with a throne, will judge, and is a mediator with His Father.

Being reduced to some Word system is a trick of Satan since Jesus beat the snot out of him and removed his authority and power to do what He wanted to who He wanted.

God made man in their image.
So, we are taken from the dust of the earth, hardly God material if your making gods. but made us like Him, and like the one next to him. The Lord of Lords, our Lord.

God's description and the Lord Jesus is vastly different. Jesus said the Father is greater than I, He should know, He had been with the Father before the World was, the Father gave him glory.

Man came from the dust of the Earth, created like both of them, like God. I hate to use the term muts, but it's what we are. Not fully exact like the Father, but still the same dog breed. We are gods like Him.



Eternal Word of God:
Not sure how to explain this without it getting to long. Jesus taught Quantum Mechanics. For matter to exist from nothing and change probabilities, it needs a conscience. Not just any conscience though like a cat, or angel. It needs a god conscience to exist. It is how God made everything that makes up everything. It's what He choose to do, and the way He choose to do it.

Rom_4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Isa_41:22 Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.

Isa_46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

So, everything is made of light, Electrons, Atoms that make molecules. These objects the electrons and Atoms are not present unless someone is conscience of them. If there is only part conscience of something, or a conscience that can't decided, then different probabilities are created. Different outcomes, different results. Matter flows on a chart of different probabilities, unless god conscience is applied. Then they change.

Nothing can exist without a supreme conscience, something has to be watching something else, and it goes back to the one who made it all. God's spoken word sets all things created by His conscience and defined our world and it can not be changed change what He set.

We as gods have the ability to create matter and define it's probability within God's supreme law of His spoken Word. In other words, we can't change someone's probability unless it's in line with the supreme conscience or law of God.

We can as gods create probabilities, but unless we are steadfast in the outcome, we will get splits of different outcomes, that do not interfere with God's set Word, or someone else. It's why someone needs to be in agreement with us a lot of times for prayer to work and why God said he already gave us all things according to His divine Power, through the Knowledge of Jesus.

Satan:
The devil has no ability as an angle to create electrons or atoms. He has no ability to create probabilities. He hates it, He can't stand it, and He hates us for how God made us. The only thing the devil can do is use one of us to create his probability. He can't tempt God in anything to get God to do what he wants, so He goes to the next best thing........... Humans.

Often when things go wrong, Satan has to plant in our minds possible different horrible outcomes. It could be this, that, pick one. Satan has to work within our defined understanding. This why He is as a lion seeing who he can chew up. Not everyone will agree with Satan's probability matrix.

Job for example, Satan planted in Job's head that His kids could die, they might be cursing God, you just never know Job. Job thought His kids were always in danger, then Satan had a right to bring that probability to pass. He used God's own laws against Job. God won't violate his own laws, not for anyone.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit:
So, we have the supreme conscience, God the Father, but all things were made through and because of the Son, to consist in Him.
So, all things go through the Son of God, even our mediator between Us and the Father.

Because all matter consist in the Son, and His name above all matter that has a name, this takes quantum physics to a level they have not understood or measured. They have not taken God's spoken Word that upholds all things and matter into consideration either.

Then the Holy Spirit, never speaks of his own, always points to Jesus, reproves the World of Sin, connects us to God, brings to our remembrance things said, helps us to pray, shows us things to come. I am sure the list is much longer.

Things are really not that hard to understand on how they work. Why things happen, and who is important to what. I have been asking God for years teaching faith how Jesus walked on the Water, and how Peter did. I understand some of it now on the human level in what every human has access to. It's still low level compared to God access. Something science has not measured yet, may never get around to measuring.

God did not show this to many Christians, they are sleeping, stuck in their doctrines, stuck in Church doing much of nothing.
God showed it to the scientist though, even showed them clearly how the earth was made. They know, but do not retain their knowledge of God.

Mike.

 

[smaller]

First, there can be no understanding from a Trinitarian perspective. Its a Roman Catholic doctrine used to control people.

I don't doubt that. For some reasons it seems to be critical to "incant" the position i.e. drill it into the pew sitters heads, as if that is some kind of a "safe zone" to provide reasonable assurance for salvation. It's not that the understanding itself is faulty. It's what people do with it. If the adherents believe it, which I do, but then go on to cut out people's tongues or burn them at the stake, which was done, the understanding itself is worthless, if that is the result of it.

If any believer can't love their neighbors, even in disagreements, whatever doctrines they hold are doing them no good.

The "perspective" did come about prior to the RCC and largely in response to alternative narratives. I'd call it more as the intellectual pursuits of religious scholars which generally passes for sound doctrine. As stated previously many times I don't disagree with the conclusions, especially in the face of poor alternative claims.

It's still a Great Mystery, regardless.

You go against their creed, the Spanish inquisition come visiting you back then. How quickly we forget where our catch phrases and doctrines originate.
Jesus is the Word of God was invented in 1914 Apostolic oneness, they also tell you that men should not even wear a wedding ring.

That's a bit of a stretch Mike. Jesus as Living Word has been the presentation for quite some time.

Being reduced to some Word system is a trick of Satan since Jesus beat the snot out of him and removed his authority and power to do what He wanted to who He wanted.

I don't doubt that either.

God's description and the Lord Jesus is vastly different. Jesus said the Father is greater than I, He should know, He had been with the Father before the World was, the Father gave him glory.

That implies separation, and that does bring problems to understanding One Spirit, One Lord.

Were we to try and stack the deck, it would perhaps look more like this:

Creator
Creator expressed in Word and Body Image
creation.

Jesus in this way Is The Mediator. I also believe that the Creator is engaged as a participant in creation itself to a certain extents, as it is His Power that upholds "all things."

Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Man came from the dust of the Earth, created like both of them, like God. I hate to use the term muts, but it's what we are. Not fully exact like the Father, but still the same dog breed. We are gods like Him.

This would put us into another realm of discussions. fwiw I do believe that our spirit(s) came from God, therefore originating from God to begin with. This can be somewhat controversial territory, i.e. the preexistence of our spirit in God. But it does provide us a basis for loving our neighbors, or as Jesus said, the least of these, my brethren. Matt. 25. Believers often "speculate" on just who is who. They of course are always in the "I am definitely in" crowd, but others might not be. Personally I think that kind of speculation is a waste of time. Long discussion in itself.

Eternal Word of God:
Not sure how to explain this without it getting to long. Jesus taught Quantum Mechanics. For matter to exist from nothing and change probabilities, it needs a conscience. Not just any conscience though like a cat, or angel. It needs a god conscience to exist. It is how God made everything that makes up everything. It's what He choose to do, and the way He choose to do it.

I'll never be looking to science for answers. Science can not horsecollar God, period. The entire notion of God is predicated on Divine Superiority over and above all "things."

Isa_46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Great example of Divine Superiority.

We as gods have the ability to create matter and define it's probability within God's supreme law of His spoken Word. In other words, we can't change someone's probability unless it's in line with the supreme conscience or law of God.

Creature science and materialism has been set with "bounds." It will not go past the boundries. If it attempts to do so, it is met headlong with metaphysics. [abstract theory or talk with no basis in reality/materialism.] And those engaged in metaphysics often walk away with nutzO claims. Personally I see the wickedness/evil realm of Satan, blocking any such paths forward. Satan in this way is a form of guardian or controller of the material world. Not that material is of itself evil. But material has limits and set boundries that can not be passed over. And if/when it is passed over, it is no longer "material" and has entered into metaphysics.

We can as gods create probabilities, but unless we are steadfast in the outcome, we will get splits of different outcomes, that do not interfere with God's set Word, or someone else. It's why someone needs to be in agreement with us a lot of times for prayer to work and why God said he already gave us all things according to His divine Power, through the Knowledge of Jesus.

I generally reject the notions of the charismatic realm, that we "speak" or "control" things into being. That doesn't happen. I'm more in the lines of whatever happens is a set outcome, as the script directs. And there are reasons why I think it is this way, from the scriptures themselves. Nothing is random. Everything is scripted to predetermined outcomes. It is much more pleasant for me to engage God, knowing that the outcome of "all things" will in fact 'work out' according to Him and His Power over everything.

People who are God manipulators, I do not trust whatsoever. I know for a fact I don't control God. He is not my puppet. And by extension, the puppet of anyone else.

Satan:
The devil has no ability as an angle to create electrons or atoms. He has no ability to create probabilities. He hates it, He can't stand it, and He hates us for how God made us. The only thing the devil can do is use one of us to create his probability. He can't tempt God in anything to get God to do what he wants, so He goes to the next best thing........... Humans.

Satan does what he does, again, without any choices, and in pre-scripted manners. Again, a long long sub-topic. I definitely relegate man in the creature sense to be beneath whatever powers that entity class has. And whatever powers that are there, in the hands of wickedness, are ultimately for Divine Purposes.

Often when things go wrong, Satan has to plant in our minds possible different horrible outcomes. It could be this, that, pick one. Satan has to work within our defined understanding. This why He is as a lion seeing who he can chew up. Not everyone will agree with Satan's probability matrix.

Most forms of christian theology are extremely lacking in this general arena. Decidedly void.

Job for example, Satan planted in Job's head that His kids could die, they might be cursing God, you just never know Job. Job thought His kids were always in danger, then Satan had a right to bring that probability to pass. He used God's own laws against Job. God won't violate his own laws, not for anyone.

I think the matters are far more interesting myself. You see just Job or just his kids or what have you. I don't. Scripture does provide sights on how we are to view every person. Again, a long conversation, and one that usually is stopped dead in it's tracks when reality comes into play, personally. It's one of the Divine Blockades that is set into our sphere. I've met very few, though I have met some, who are willing to engage that sin indwells our flesh, and that our own sin, inclusive of "evil thoughts" are in fact demonic in origin. In this sight there is no "just Job" or "just Job's children." 1 John 3:8 is the shortest track to get there. Every blindman will however deny this just like pre-set pre-scripted clockwork. The "hiding place" of Satan and his messengers is in fact "in the flesh/mind/heart" of MANKIND, all. It is there that God has placed His covering over creation itself. Satan and his own is that covering.

The Promise of the Gospel is that [the covers] will be ripped off, at some point. Again, a long discussion.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit:
So, we have the supreme conscience, God the Father, but all things were made through and because of the Son, to consist in Him.
So, all things go through the Son of God, even our mediator between Us and the Father.

I really don't think you are as anti-Trinitarian as you claim to be. At least I haven't seen much of it to this point in the dialog. Any time we try to divide or separate God from Jesus or The Holy Spirit there are issues that instantly arise from the scriptural depictions of ONE GOD, ONE Spirit, Jesus being not only One with God, but God Himself expressed into creation as Image and Living Word of same.

There is no separation possible in the equations. Which is kind of the point of the Trinitarian position. Quantum mechanics are not going to resolve it either.

 

[Brother Mike]

many times I don't disagree with the conclusions, especially in the face of poor alternative claims.

I don't doubt that either.

Jesus in this way Is The Mediator. I also believe that the Creator is engaged as a participant in creation itself to a certain extents, as it is His Power that upholds "all things."

Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

I generally reject the notions of the charismatic realm, that we "speak" or "control" things into being. That doesn't happen. I'm more in the lines of whatever happens is a set outcome, as the script directs. And there are reasons why I think it is this way, from the scriptures themselves. Nothing is random. Everything is scripted to predetermined outcomes. It is much more pleasant for me to engage God, knowing that the outcome of "all things" will in fact 'work out' according to Him and His Power over everything.

The Promise of the Gospel is that [the covers] will be ripped off, at some point. Again, a long discussion.


I really don't think you are as anti-Trinitarian as you claim to be. At least I haven't seen much of it to this point in the dialog. Any time we try to divide or separate God from Jesus or The Holy Spirit there are issues that instantly arise from the scriptural depictions of ONE GOD, ONE Spirit, Jesus being not only One with God, but God Himself expressed into creation as Image and Living Word of same.

There is no separation possible in the equations. Which is kind of the point of the Trinitarian position. Quantum mechanics are not going to resolve it either.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(Heb 1:1-3 KJV)

Is Jesus upholding all things that God spoke by the Word of His power? I have only understood the pentecostal understanding that God's Word upholds all things, which it does, but is that what the verse is actually saying?

I completely do not agree with election, or that everything was written for everyone as a script. God speaking to us about something is dependant on doing what God said do to get What God said would happen for you. Peter having experienced miracles went to say despite that, we have a more sure word to count on. Scripture denotes that God is not in complete control over people. People have to include themselves in His control or suffer the losses.

I don't have anything against Trinity, or have a knee Jerk reaction because it comes out of the RC Church. The Nicene Creed did not mash 3 beings into one. It was written to convey the deity of Jesus who is of the same Essence and God, Just like His Father. The modern versions are just plain bad.

We actually do have what we say. If you don't confess Jesus Lord, believing in your heart, then what happens? Take that and apply it to everything else. The problem may be you have not heard it correctly, or that it was not presented correctly. Faith is real though, and activated by speaking and/or taking action.

have a awesome New year.

Mike.

 

[smaller]

timed out before posted.

 

[smaller]

Had a post typed out, but timed out of log before it could post. Tending one of my grandchildren today. Will try to pick up the conversation later.

Happy New Year to you and yours Mike. And for the pleasant interactions. It's good to compare notes. Not everyone's notebook is the same, nor is it meant to be. We are unique for reasons.

 

[Brother Mike]

Had a post typed out, but timed out of log before it could post. Tending one of my grandchildren today. Will try to pick up the conversation later.

Happy New Year to you and yours Mike. And for the pleasant interactions. It's good to compare notes. Not everyone's notebook is the same, nor is it meant to be. We are unique for reasons.

You the same Brother, Happy New year, and it sucks when the post time out. I almost thought about writing post in a Word document, just in case.

Blessings.

 

[JLB]

Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5

That would be Jesus coming with the saints. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

There is only one Lord God the Saviour. He sent His son and crucified him for us.

The Lord our Savior is Jesus Christ, whom the Father sent.

He is our great God and Savior.

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.
Jesus is the First and Last.
Jesus is the Beginning and the End.

Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God, the only begotten of the Father.

• Just ask God the Father.

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8


JLB

 

[Jesse Stone]

members post removed.... replaced with the guidelines for this forum.


Christian Theology is by definition the study of God through His word, the Bible. Apologetics goes hand in hand with theology as it is the branch of Christian theology which attempts to give a rational defense of the Christian faith. That makes the Apologetics and Theology forum unique from many of our other forums in that this is a place specifically for these types of discussions.

With this in mind, the following guidelines should be followed.

• Original posts should reference specific scripture and what it is the member wants to say or ask about that scripture.
• Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies.
• Opinions are plenty and have little value so please do not state positions that have no basis in scripture.
• Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.
• Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.
• You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but please keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer.
• Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position.
• reba

 

[NeutralZone]

Jesus is the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last, which are title references to The Lord God of Israel, YHWH.

Jesus is The Lord God, YHWH, our Redeemer and our King.

JLB:

You are giving me wash, rinse, and repeat. You have already been shown from scripture at Titus 1:4 that YHWH/Jehovah the Father is a different person from Jesus the Son.

Titus 1:4 -- English Standard Version
"To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior."

Titus 1:4 identifies two persons:
1. God the Father
2. Christ Jesus our Savior.

You were also shown from scripture at Revelation 1:8 that YHWH/Jehovah is the Father and that the Alpha and Omega refers only to Jehovah the Father.


Revelation 1:8 -- Aramaic Bible in Plain English
"I am The Alap and The Tau, says THE LORD JEHOVAH God, he who is and has been and is coming, The Almighty."


If you think you can turn YHWH/Jehovah (the Father) into Jesus Christ (the Son) by quoting verses that apply to YHWH/Jehovah (the Father) and insisting the verses apply to Jesus Christ (the Son), suit yourself.

I will deal with your quotation of Hebrews 1:8 in a separate post.


NeutralZone

 

[JLB]

You have already been shown from scripture at Titus 1:4 that YHWH/Jehovah the Father is a different person from Jesus the Son.

Of course Jesus Christ is a different person from His Father.

It was the man Jesus Christ that went to the cross and died for our sins, being sent from God the Father.

Jesus is the Only Begotten of the Father.

Jesus is God the Son.

Here read it for yourself -

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8


Sorry, Titus 1:4 does not say what you have written.

Here it is word for word.

To Titus, a true son in our common faith:
Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.
Titus 1:4

Jesus is our Savior. Our great God and Savior.

... looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13


JLB

 

[JLB]

You were also shown from scripture at Revelation 1:8 that YHWH/Jehovah is the Father and that the Alpha and Omega refers only to Jehovah the Father.

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

Revelation 22:12,20

 

[JLB]

If you think you can turn YHWH/Jehovah (the Father) into Jesus Christ (the Son) by quoting verses that apply to YHWH/Jehovah (the Father) and insisting the verses apply to Jesus Christ (the Son), suit yourself.

I will deal with your quotation of Hebrews 1:8 in a separate post.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7


For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16


JLB