Jesus is not YHVH

[JLB]

When used of the true God, "Elohim" denotes what is called by linguists a plural of majesty, honor, or fullness. That is, he is GOD in the fullest sense of the word. He is "GOD of gods" or literally, "ELOHIM of elohim" (Deut 10:17; Ps 136:2).

When used of the true God, by Christians, it's a reference to the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

First. In general, Christians don't "believe that Jesus is 'YHWH'." They believe He is "God".

So your major premise is false. (And being false, it renders the remainder of your post invalid as well.)

Well Howdy Mr Parker, or should I call you sir? Two pompous, overly combative opponents both wishing to pontificate. This could be fun.

For starters Sir, I clearly stated, "Many believe that Jesus is YHVH". My statement is fact, not premise as some in this thread indeed believe that Jesus is YHVH as I am assuming you have found out. If not, I can locate a link in the Lounge which this OP originated.

That you add "Christians don't believe Jesus is YHWH", infers that you either didn't take the time to think of the ramifications of your statement or you were simply ignorant of the implications.
For starters, if a Christian believes that Jesus was YHVH or as you prefer, YHWH, does that belief then disqualify them as Christians? Thus, since they don't believe as you believe, they truly are not Christians. Or do you simply live in a glass tower and rule over scriptures in your own ivory throne?

See, I can return the banter just as readily. Kinda puts you in battle mode doesn't it? But in all honesty, it drains me and leaves me empty, and feeling horrible at the end of the day. As Christians, we are to be patient with one another and where possible, uplift them. You shall hear no more banter from me. What did Jesus say?
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Please review 1 Cor 15 for the topic of love.

And, just as an excursus, it has been my experience that people who insist on using the names Yahweh and Yeshua are very often posers who are attempting to sound erudite and to appear to be in possession of some deep knowledge with which they can impress and astound us all. (yawn) And it has been my experience also that they consistently lack the theological training to support their assumed role. I'm not saying that's you; I'm just saying that has been my experience.

I am truly sorry that has been your experience. I do not share that experience with you. Hopefully our exchange will edify and we can learn from each other.

But as to the word "LORD" in the OT:

When you see LORD (all caps) it is translating "YHWH ELOHIM" or "ELOHIM". (Elohim is the most often word used in the OT to refer to God; it is found 2602 times in the Hebrew Bible ) It comes from the use of the Greek word "KURIOS" in the Septuagint (LXX) which was the most commonly used scriptures at the time of Jesus and in which Yahweh Elohim was translated as Kurios..

The Capitalizing of the word LORD" in modern translations reflects the LXX usage and is confined to the Old Testament.

By far, you have a greater grasp on the Greek language than I. When I study the OT, I do so in in the Hebrew and the commentaries I use also utilize the Hebrew.
Years ago I audited an OT Theology class and I learned a great deal. I claim to be no expert let alone a scholar. One of the books I purchased was Ancieint Near East texts, by Pritchard. Amazing compilation of translations from the near east.
Did you know that what we translate as El and Elohim aren't actually Hebrew words? Yet we find them being used many times in the Hebrew texts.
In the English, both EL and Elohim are translated as God and our modern versions do not give their meanings justice. El is singular and denotes the head of the pantheon. When El is used in the singular, I do believe it is pointing to the idea of a stand alone god. When used in the plural (Elohim), it is encompassing divine authority over the pantheon. In simple terms, El the warrior while Elohim conquered the nations.

We see this in the Hebrew OT as El Shaddia, or "God Almighty" aka the good shepherd as denoted by the languages pictorial roots. (Genesis 28:3 )

And still so...
Psalms 110:1 <<A Psalm of David.>> The LORD (YHVH) said unto my Lord (Adoni), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Or as we also see
Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD (YHVH) your God (Elohim) is God (Elohim) of gods (Elohim), and Lord (adoni) of lords (adoni), a great God (Elohim), a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Again, I am not familiar with the rendering of the Septuagint on these words, but we should both be able to learn from the original Hebrew.

Theologically:

There is one God Who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Trinity in unity. In the New Testament, the words "Lord" and "God" are used to refer to that one, triune God.

And example is Elizabeth's greeting of Mary at Luke 1:43 “But why is this granted to me,(Elizabeth) that the mother (Mary) of my Lord (Jesus) should come to me? In this question, Elizabeth identifies Jesus as God by referring to Him as "my Lord."

My intent is not to get into the finer points of the trinity. Textually, "Lord" in the greek had several meaning depending upon it's usage. While I agree with your rendering of Luke 1:43, as well as many other passages, the word was not exclusive to the Jews.

Matthew 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

What we see here is that God the Father had revealed to Peter that Jesus was not only Lord, as Peter had called him in the past ( Matthew 14:30 ), but that Jesus was the Messiah (Christ) as well.

John 1:1 specifically and unequivocally states that the Word who became flesh (as Jesus of Nazareth) is God. The word used for "God" is the Greek "THEOS" not the Hebrew YHWH or Elohim or YHWH Elohim or El or Adoni or any of the many other names of God used by the Hebrews. And, at the time of Jesus, the Jews would commonly refer to God as "the Name" so as to avoid taking God's name in vain.

And, yes, I do have the formal theological training.

iakov the fool

The text does not say the Word "who" became flesh... it states that the word was made flesh.
We know from Genesis 1, it is the idea of Elohim who creates and makes, and he shows his creative authority through his words. Words are very powerful, so we ought to be careful how we use them. James even gives us a warning of our tongue.
But what we clearly see is that it is God's Word that makes... and that Word was made flesh. What we see is the second Adam.,, God is doing something new in creation.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt (tabernacle) among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[stovebolts]

YHWH is the Hebrew name for the true God. El and Elohim are Hebrew terms meaning "God." Elohim is singular in meaning, but plural in form, meaning our single God takes more than one form. Christ, who was God in the beginning, according to John, indeed created all things.

Very well said Barth. I couldn't have said it any plainer myself.

He is also called by the same name as his Father, and indeed is the "everlasting father," according to Isaiah.

I'd be interested in seeing that, and discussing this one further.

 

[Jim Parker]

Well Howdy Mr Parker, or should I call you sir? Two pompous, overly combative opponents both wishing to pontificate.

OK. You open with an insult. This should be fun.

"Many believe that Jesus is YHVH". My statement is fact

Many people believe that we never put men on the moon. That statement is fact also. I didn't reply to what "many people believe." I replied to the equating of Jesus with Yahweh, the idea that they are one and the same in all aspects. That is problematic for the reasons I have posted.

That you add "Christians don't believe Jesus is YHWH"

I don't remember saying that. Can you refer me to the post in which I said that? It is not accurate. There are obviously Christians who equate Jesus with Yahweh. (Luckily, God will not judge us on what we perceive to be the finer points of theology.)

See, I can return the banter just as readily.

Be still my heart.

in all honesty, it drains me and leaves me empty, and feeling horrible at the end of the day.

Yet, here you are.

Hopefully our exchange will edify and we can learn from each other.

It has not to this point but, "hope springs eternal."

The text does not say the Word "who" became flesh... it states that the word was made flesh.

And what difference does that make? Jesus, in fact, is the WORD Who became flesh.

Words are very powerful, so we ought to be careful how we use them. James even gives us a warning of our tongue. But what we clearly see is that it is God's Word that makes... and that Word was made flesh.

(sigh)

The English word which the translators have chosen for the Greek word "LOGOS" is "Word." There is no modern English word which carries the content of the ancient Greek word "LOGOS." And an unfortunate consequence of using "Word" is the notion that the Word is spoken language. That notion is far off the mark. Logos is not a thing you can look up in a dictionary or speak.

The concept communicated in the word. "LOGOS" is that of the uncaused cause and sustainer of creation. The word LOGOS is borrowed from Greek philosophy and theology. It refers to the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning. That understanding is reflected in John 1:3-4.(NKJV) All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. (And, yes, the writers of the NT and the early church did draw from the work of the Greek philosophers because the philosophers provided well thought out concepts which are useful in communicating theological truth.)

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

Thank you for your opinion.

THe fact is that Jesus and Yahweh are not identical.

No such name as Yahweh in the bible.

Please provide the verse where Yahweh is used in the Bible.


Who was speaking through the mouth of Zechariah in this verse?

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10


Jesus is YHWH!


Unless you think it was a different Lord speaking through Zechariah, if so, please share who you think it was.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

No such name as Yahweh in the bible.

No kidding? "Yahweh" is the commonly used transliteration of the name of God, "יהוה"

Who was speaking through the mouth of Zechariah in this verse?

The Holy Spirit.

Jesus is YHWH!

You just said there is no such name. Please make up your minds.

iakov the fool

 

[WIP]

Okay, guys....

 

[Jim Parker]

Okay, guys....

Yeah. I've had enough and don't want it to get ugly. So I'm bailing from this "discussion."

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

You just said there is no such name. Please make up your minds.

I said there is no such name of God in the Bible as Yahweh.

I said Jesus is YHWH.


YHWH is called the four letters.

Yahweh the man made word, has six letters and falls short.

If you can't see the difference between 4 letters and 6 letters, then Yes, please do bow out of the discussion.


Now please answer a simple question:

Who was speaking through the mouth of Zechariah in this verse?

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10


A.] YHWH

B.] The Spirit of Christ

C.] The Angel of The Lord

D.] Our great God and Savior

E.] The Almighty

F.] The great I AM

G.] All of the Above



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

I said there is no such name of God in the Bible as Yahweh.

I said Jesus is YHWH.
YHWH is called the four letters.
Yahweh the man made word, has six letters and falls short.
If you can't see the difference between 4 letters and 6 letters, then Yes, please do bow out of the discussion.
Now please answer a simple question:
Who was speaking through the mouth of Zechariah in this verse?
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10

A.] YHWH
B.] The Spirit of Christ
C.] The Angel of The Lord
D.] Our great God and Savior
E.] The Almighty
F.] The great I AM
G.] All of the Above

JLB

I've already stated my point. The name "Jesus" is part of an more complete revelation of God than is the name "YHWH." Therefor, "Jesus" cannot equal "YHWH."

I'm not going to argue with you.

You have a nice day.

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

I've already stated my point. The name "Jesus" is part of an more complete revelation of God than is the name "YHWH." Therefor, "Jesus" cannot equal "YHWH."

I'm not going to argue with you.

You have a nice day.

iakov the fool

Actually, you've made my point.

You stated your opinion with no scripture.

If the word Yahweh was found in scripture you would have posted it.

There is no such name as Yahweh found in scripture.


You refuse to answer a simple question that proves Jesus Christ is Lord.


The Lord of Heaven and Earth.

YHWH the Lord God who spoke by the mouth of the prophets.


Now please answer a simple question:

Who was speaking through the mouth of Zechariah in this verse?

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10


A.] YHWH

B.] The Spirit of Christ

C.] The Angel of The Lord

D.] Our great God and Savior

E.] The Almighty

F.] The great I AM

G.] All of the Above



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Actually, you've made my point.

whatever

 

[Sinthesis]

Is it a problem if יהוה is another name for λόγος?

 

[JLB]

Is it a problem if יהוה is another name for λόγος?

It is if Yahweh doesn't appear in the bible.

 

[Sinthesis]

Is it a problem if יהוה is another name for λόγος?

It is if Yahweh doesn't appear in the bible.

Both יהוה and λόγος appear in the bible? Is it a problem if יהוה is another name for λόγος?

 

[Jim Parker]

Is it a problem if יהוה is another name for λόγος?

Yes it is. It is a problem similar to making the word "tree" another word for the word "vegetable." (Eat your trees?)

The word "Logos" was not chosen by John at random. He chose it to communicate that Jesus Christ is "Theos." And we can be confident that John intentionally chose the word "Theos" rather than "Yahweh Elohim" (LXX: LORD) in order to communicate precisely.

Words have meaning. If we attach any meaning we like to any word we like, we create a chaos of meaningless word strings.

iakov the fool

 

[Free]

P1: God's name is YHVH.
P2: Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God.
C: Therefore, Jesus is YHVH, the Father is YHVH, and the Holy Spirit is YHVH.

Conclusion follows from the premises.

 

[Jim Parker]

P1: God's name is YHVH.
P2: Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God.
C: Therefore, Jesus is YHVH, the Father is YHVH, and the Holy Spirit is YHVH.

Conclusion follows from the premises.

Your first premise is false. "YHVH is ONE of the names of God, not THE name of God.
Your assumption is false: the mane "YHVH" is used to refer to an incomplete revelation of God which does not reflect the final revelation of God as Trinity.

The names "YHVH" and Jesus and Father and Holy Spirit are not interchangeable.They each convey different concepts.

Your logic falls because it is based on an anachronism and a false identity of terms.

iakov the fool

 

[WIP]

Remember, we can't just post an opinion without Scriptural support. That will just lead down the road of non-ending argument.

 

[Jim Parker]

Remember, we can't just post an opinion without Scriptural support. That will just lead down the road of non-ending argument.

To what post are you referring?

and, sure I can.

iakov the fool