Jesus is Presently King of the World

[LostSoul]

Some seem offended by my tone. Well, it is borne of frustration - of habitual refusal on the part of others to engage arguments I post, as if, for example "I don;t care what the proper interpretation of John 18:36 is, I am going to choose to read it is a statement that Jesus' kingdom is not an earthly kingdom"

I have debunked the John 18:36 argument against the present kingship of Jesus many times. What is so frustrating is that people never challenge my argument and yet they seem perfectly content to live with their position as if it was simply "not permissible" that they be demonstrated to be in the wrong.

In any kind of serious debate setting, you cannot simply claim position X if you are not able to engage and refute arguments that challenge position X.

Here, that seems to be a national pastime....

Drew earlier I not only expressed my oppinion, but said how I might have been wrong and even shared some evidence that I felt might support your views or those of others and asked for thoughts on it. Think the ignorance goes both ways.

 

[Drew]

Think the ignorance goes both ways.[/color]

No it does not. At least not generally. Even though this seem self-serving, I am convinced it is true: There is a huge disparity between my debating practice and that of many who take contrary positions to me: I engage their arguments, they generally do not engage mine. The evidence in the thread transcripts show this.

This is not 100 % of course, but the difference is significant.

I fully admit that I generally do not read "links". If I am going to go to the effort of formulating my own thoughts, I suggest others should at least try to do the same. And I say this fully aware that we all do not have the same communications skills and / or time to dedicate to these discussions.

All I am asking is that people "find the error" in the arguments I post. As already stated, it is simply not acceptable to claim position X without refuting all arguments that challenge that position.

 

[LostSoul]

Think the ignorance goes both ways.[/color]

No it does not. At least not generally. Even though this seem self-serving, I am convinced it is true: There is a huge disparity between my debating practice and that of many who take contrary positions to me: I engage their arguments, they generally do not engage mine. The evidence in the thread transcripts show this.

This is not 100 % of course, but the difference is significant.

I fully admit that I generally do not read "links". If I am going to go to the effort of formulating my own thoughts, I suggest others should at least try to do the same. And I say this fully aware that we all do not have the same communications skills and / or time to dedicate to these discussions.

All I am asking is that people "find the error" in the arguments I post. As already stated, it is simply not acceptable to claim position X without refuting all arguments that challenge that position.

So...basically if people do not respond as you want them to, there is no point in reading them? Is that....what you are saying? If not, that is what seems to come across. I was more or less trying to express my findings, and perhaps even an error I may have made in interpretation. Yet when I try to express what little or what lack of error it had you did not see that....oh well...there is just no talking for us I guess. Seeing as I am the only one at fault here. Which I accept, though I do not agree with that statement. Seeing as usually it takes two to tango...but alright. With that said I bow out.

 

[lovely]

I feel like I am endlessly studying end times without ever coming to a conclusion that I can really say is 'absolutely correct', and so I admire those who seem to have a real grasp on this, and a conviction for a certain view. So, that being said...


I absolutely believe that Jesus reigns in the hearts of believers, and I am, in personal study, trying to understand the view that Drew is presenting in this thread. I struggle with the idea of suffering, of reigning martyrs, and with continued deception, when Jesus is said to be presently reigning in this world, but there is no denying that the Scripture does say that He is reigning right now.

This seems to be the case when we realize that the Gospel is spreading to all nations, that the church is 'filling up' the sufferings of Christ through it's spreading, and that through those sufferings and edifiying gifts we are becoming mature in love as a body which will complete the image of Christ before a lost world. It's a process, but it seems like it can only be happening because Christ is presently reigning.

I am still studying this obviously, and so I will follow along.

 

[shad]

I absolutely believe that Jesus reigns in the hearts of believers,

And you are obsoletely right saying that, lovely. But satan is still reigning this world because the world's wickedness is continually increasing rather than decreasing. This is obvious evidense and proof of satan's ruling.

.

 

[MarkT]

Drew

This world is about sin and death. Jesus overcame the world. John 16:33 He overcame sin and death.

Jesus Christ will rule during the millenial reign but until he comes there is no reason to say Jesus is the ruler of this world - which hates him, by the way.

Of course the world hates Him - but that does not mean that he is not KIng. Plenty of people hated Ceasar but did that mean he was not king? Of course not. There are many clear scriptural proofs that Jesus is presently King. Here is just one:

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His (calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

It really amazes me that people can read this and not understand that a clear assertion is being made that Jesus rules in this age ("not only in this age") and rules over this earth ("all authortiy and power and domninion").

MarkT - please explain how you read this text differently. How does "all authority" mean "all authority except over the cosmos"? Or how does "in this age" become "only in the future"? I am deeply interested in kwowing how your thinking works here.

Drew

It's saying Christ is seated at the right hand of God in the heavenly places where he is far above all (earthly)rule and authority and power and dominion. You could say where he sits, on the throne in the heavenly places, is far above all rule and authority and power and dominion or you could say he is far above all rule and authority and power and dominion because he sits on the throne. Either way we know God gave him all that he has. He is the King of kings and the Lord of lords. And God put all things under his feet and made him head over all things for the church. So we have the authority to cast out demons in Jesus name.

According to the parable of the pounds, Luke 19:11-27, a nobleman went into a far country to receive kingly power (or a kingdom) and then return. Jesus went to the far country (heaven) to receive his kingly power. So he is the King. However he has not returned. When he returns he will reward his servants and punish the wicked. And the parable says, his citizens hated him and sent an embassy after him saying, 'we do not want this man to reign over us.' So when he returns, his enemies, who did not want him to rule over them, will be brought to him and slain.

But what does this have to do with the ruler of this world - the devil? Sin and death still reign in our mortal bodies. The whole world has gone after Satan. He goes about like a roaring lion.

Jesus Christ hasn't returned yet. He will. And when he does, he will return as the King of kings with the full power and the authority of the King. But as Peter said, 'Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old.' Acts 3:21 So saying heaven must receive him until the appointed time, the devil is the ruler of this world until then. I'm not saying he is the ruler of us, but of the world.

 

[Steve76]

I'd just like to add to this topic regarding Jesus and what He is doing at present.

When Jesus visited me in my bedroom on the 29th April 2009 at around 3am, He delivered me from demonic forces. Just as He finished my deliverance He said "I have to go now Steve, as there is much work to be done.."

I do not believe Jesus is presently King of the world. I believe though, that He is actively working on becoming King of the world as we speak.

Blessings
Steve


http://getwiththeword.blogspot.com/

 

[Free]

There is so much suffering and wickedness in the world because satan is the ruler of this world. The world's wickedness will increase until Jesus starts reigning this world.

It is that simple. Most of you are making it complicated than actually is.

.

Two questions:

1. Is Jesus Lord of your life?
2. Do you sin?

shad,

You may have missed the above post.

 

[shad]

There is so much suffering and wickedness in the world because satan is the ruler of this world. The world's wickedness will increase until Jesus starts reigning this world.

It is that simple. Most of you are making it complicated than actually is.

.

Two questions:

1. Is Jesus Lord of your life?
2. Do you sin?

shad,

You may have missed the above post.

That is the most insulting questions against another Christian. That does not deserve the answers.
And you seem to believe you are loving Christian.

take care.

 

[LostSoul]

Two questions:

1. Is Jesus Lord of your life?
2. Do you sin?

shad,

You may have missed the above post.

That is the most insulting questions against another Christian. That does not deserve the answers.
And you seem to believe you are loving Christian.

take care.[/quote]

Please everyone let us speak kindly to one another and not venture from the topic too much....please...

 

[toddm]

I absolutely believe that Jesus reigns in the hearts of believers,

And you are obsoletely right saying that, lovely. But satan is still reigning this world because the world's wickedness is continually increasing rather than decreasing. This is obvious evidense and proof of satan's ruling.

.

This makes it sound like God has no control of this earth. Let me ask you something - is there really MORE wickedness today than 2,000 yrs ago? I mean read the book of 1 Corinthians or Romans 1. If Christ is not currently reigning, then there would be no church. How can there be a body w/o a head? Everyone wants to focus on the wickedness of the world, well like I said, I really don't think the world is that much more wicked than it's always been (ancient pagans used to sacrifice their own children!!) Have you ever looked at the positive? The Bible is more accessible today than ever before! There are more missionaries going to foreign countries than ever in history! The Gospel is reaching around the globe like never before in the age of the Church. 700 yrs ago people were being killed just for trying to get the Bible in English!

Wickedness increasing?? On the contrary, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is increasing and I see that feat as being impossible if Satan were truly the ruler of this world. The fact is that Jesus is ruling and reigning and though he allows us to dwell among wickedness, He is still on his throne.

 

[shad]

Lostlamb,

How would you feel if someone asks you if Jesus is your Lord after expressing with your posts how devoting yourself to Jesus? And a questioner is a mod.

Free, I will answer to your question if you give the answer to the same questions you asked me.

thanks.

.

 

[Drew]

I struggle with the idea of suffering, of reigning martyrs, and with continued deception, when Jesus is said to be presently reigning in this world, but there is no denying that the Scripture does say that He is reigning right now.

Obviously, I understand the temptation to think that because there is evil in the world, Jesus cannot be reigning. But I see no other way to read "He must reign until He has placed all enemies under His feet".

That text tells us that His reign entails a progressive defeat of enemies - it is a project. So while it is sad that there is still evil and death, we should not be seeing this as any kind of evidence that Jesus does not reign.

 

[LostSoul]

Lostlamb,

How would you feel if someone asks you if Jesus is your Lord after expressing with her posts how devoting herself to Jesus? And a questioner is a mod.

Free, I will answer to your question if you give the answer to the same questions you asked me.

thanks.

.

This is why I said everyone. I did not target you or anyone else in particular. Just said everyone let us talk nicely to one another. Think we all could refrain from insulting remarks or inquiries in regards of one another.

 

[MarkT]

Think the ignorance goes both ways.[/color]

No it does not. At least not generally. Even though this seem self-serving, I am convinced it is true: There is a huge disparity between my debating practice and that of many who take contrary positions to me: I engage their arguments, they generally do not engage mine. The evidence in the thread transcripts show this.

This is not 100 % of course, but the difference is significant.

I fully admit that I generally do not read "links". If I am going to go to the effort of formulating my own thoughts, I suggest others should at least try to do the same. And I say this fully aware that we all do not have the same communications skills and / or time to dedicate to these discussions.

All I am asking is that people "find the error" in the arguments I post. As already stated, it is simply not acceptable to claim position X without refuting all arguments that challenge that position.

Drew

You're looking for evidence or proof of a position which is contrary to and in disagreement with the words of God. Jesus taught us Satan was the ruler of this world. Paul's writings agree with the Lord's teaching. You want to argue with the Lord? Wait for his return.

 

[Drew]

It's saying Christ is seated at the right hand of God in the heavenly places where he is far above all (earthly)rule and authority and power and dominion. You could say where he sits, on the throne in the heavenly places, is far above all rule and authority and power and dominion or you could say he is far above all rule and authority and power and dominion because he sits on the throne. Either way we know God gave him all that he has. He is the King of kings and the Lord of lords. And God put all things under his feet and made him head over all things for the church. So we have the authority to cast out demons in Jesus name.

How is this a counterargument to the position that Jesus presently reigns over the earth?

Besides, let's be clear here, you are changing what Paul has actually written. Why do you think that is acceptable? Did you think I (or others) would not detect this?

Let's compare what Paul has written to what you have posted. First, Paul's statement:

He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come

...and now your statement:

He is the King of kings and the Lord of lords. And God put all things under his feet and made him head over all things for the church

Why have you added this qualification that the scope of authority is limited to the church. Paul does not add this qualification. So why do you?

 

[shad]

Let me ask you something - is there really MORE wickedness today than 2,000 yrs ago? .

It is getting worse because mankind is getting smarter in violence. They are discovering more and more massive destructions.
If Jesus is ruling this world, He will not do such lousy job like satan.

God is control but He is giving everyone chance to follow Him. God does not force Himself to anyone. People who are following Him has peace and joy in their lives. If you dont feel peace and joy in your life, you should reexamine your faith, friend.

thanks for your question.

 

[shad]

Lostlamb,

How would you feel if someone asks you if Jesus is your Lord after expressing with her posts how devoting herself to Jesus? And a questioner is a mod.

Free, I will answer to your question if you give the answer to the same questions you asked me.

thanks.

.

This is why I said everyone. I did not target you or anyone else in particular. Just said everyone let us talk nicely to one another. Think we all could refrain from insulting remarks or inquiries in regards of one another.

thank you lostlamb

 

[Drew]

According to the parable of the pounds, Luke 19:11-27, a nobleman went into a far country to receive kingly power (or a kingdom) and then return. Jesus went to the far country (heaven) to receive his kingly power. So he is the King. However he has not returned. When he returns he will reward his servants and punish the wicked. And the parable says, his citizens hated him and sent an embassy after him saying, 'we do not want this man to reign over us.' So when he returns, his enemies, who did not want him to rule over them, will be brought to him and slain.

I think that your intepretation of this passage is probably not what Jesus intended.

You have Jesus assuming the role of the nobleman who is about to leave and, when he returns (i.e. the 2nd coming), assume his "kingship". Well that is one way to read the passage.

But there is another way which I think is correct. In that reading, Jesus is set in the role of the returning nobleman. And the servants that he judges are Jews who have been entrusted with the covenantal obligation to be a light to the nations.

The passage works fine on such a reading, I think.

Jesus is "YHWH returning to Zion" - Jesus is the returning king, not the departing King. The departing King was God who, long before Jesus, "left" his people in the sense that He abandoned the temple and sent the Jews into exile.

Now I have not substantially argued for the correctness of this interpretation. But it is a valid alternative to the interpretation that you offer.

 

[Free]

Quite frankly I am at a loss for words. I have asked two very simple, non-insulting questions in order to make a point, which is very common in debating. I would have to agree that there is far too much evasiveness, failure to address arguments and unsupported assertions being made. That is not good debating practice.


shad,

I will answers the questions for you. In fact, I will answer them for all Christians. Yes, Jesus is Lord of our lives and, yes, we all sin.

The point is that the existence of evil in the world has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus is King of this world. That is the argument you made and my questions bring to light the contradiction in making that argument.

Whether or not evil is increasing is beyond the scope of this debate and not really relevant anyway. If we want to argue that evil is increasing, or in the least that it isn't decreasing, it could very well be because the focus of the Church is incorrect and misguided.