Jesus is Presently King of the World

[Drew]

But what does this have to do with the ruler of this world - the devil? Sin and death still reign in our mortal bodies. The whole world has gone after Satan. He goes about like a roaring lion.

This has been addressed in detail. Why do you, and others think you have no obligation to engage the Biblically grounded argument that I have provided as to why we should expect sin and death to still be present during Jesus' reign? Was Paul "joking" when he wrote "Jesus must reign until all the enemies are defeated", a statement that cleary implies that all the enemies will not have been defeated "on the first day" of His reign?

Do you feel that you can simply ignore this passage, and all that it implies?

Besides, no one has produced any texts in this thread that have Satan as lord of the earth this side of the resurrection.

The fact that he prowls around and creates trouble does not make him King. I could say that Rush Limbaugh prowls around like a roaring lion, deceving many. Does that make him King?

 

[Drew]

Wickedness increasing?? On the contrary, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is increasing and I see that feat as being impossible if Satan were truly the ruler of this world. The fact is that Jesus is ruling and reigning and though he allows us to dwell among wickedness, He is still on his throne.

I agree with the overall flavour of your post and would ask readers to consider the "myth of the good old days" - a pervasive, but almost always unsubstantiated intuition that things were better in the past.

 

[Drew]

Jesus taught us Satan was the ruler of this world. Paul's writings agree with the Lord's teaching. You want to argue with the Lord? Wait for his return.

Where, and please provide specific texts, does either Jesus or Paul say or write anything, that establishes that Satan is ruler of the world, this side of the cross?

 

[MarkT]

Was Paul "joking" when he wrote "Jesus must reign until all the enemies are defeated", a statement that cleary implies that all the enemies will not have been defeated "on the first day" of His reign?

Do you feel that you can simply ignore this passage, and all that it implies?

20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one. 1 Cor 15:20-28

Drew

It's saying everything happens in order; at his coming (or when he returns), those who belong to him are raised up, and then comes the end. He must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The reign begins with his coming and it will be a thousand years. The part where it says 'For he must reign' is refering to the millenial reign. It's not saying he is reigning now but when he comes he will reign. And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to God who put all things under him.

 

[lovely]

It seems like scripture teaches that the kingdom is both now and future...the fulfillment, but not the completeness. So, while Jesus reigns to the point that we can walk in the Spirit and please God, we are still waiting for His return to the redemption of our bodies for which we can patiently wait having these 'firstfruits'. Is this an agreement, or is there something I am still missing?

The parable of Ten Minas in Luke 19 says, "11 As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. 12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.13 Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ 15 When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. "

It almost seems like this parable says that He is in the process of receiving the Kingdom (through the spreading of the Gospel?), but that His return will indicate that it is complete.

Romans 8: 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

I see the the present reigning mainly in the spreading of the Gospel to all nations, the filling up the sufferings of Christ, and a maturing of the church corporately, and the liberation of the believer.

 

[Drew]

The reign begins with his coming and it will be a thousand years.

The text never says this. Where does this text, or any other text, say that His reign only begins when He returns. Show me a specific verse please.

 

[shad]

The point is that the existence of evil in the world has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus is King of this world. That is the argument you made and my questions bring to light the contradiction in making that argument.

OP is including if Jesus is ruler of this world, too.

Whether or not evil is increasing is beyond the scope of this debate and not really relevant anyway. If we want to argue that evil is increasing, or in the least that it isn't decreasing, it could very well be because the focus of the Church is incorrect and misguided.

If Jesus is ruling this world, any wickedness won't exist. God's kingdom will be perfect peace. That's the whole point of Gods' kingdom. Jesus is inviting all mankind to peaceful world, and heaven.

 

[shad]

I see the the present reigning mainly in the spreading of the Gospel to all nations, the filling up the sufferings of Christ, and a maturing of the church corporately, and the liberation of the believer.

That's right, when the time comes Jesus will stop inviting people and starts God's kingdom. And there is not going to be any wickedness in the world. It will be very obvious.

.

 

[Steve76]

The Kingdom of God is within us - Luke 17:20-21 and it is not visible as Jesus states it comes without observation.

Christ reigns for 1000 years - Revelation 20 - as Satan is bound and has no authority in the world for that time.





http://getwiththeword.blogspot.com/

 

[Drew]

The Kingdom of God is within us - Luke 17:20-21 and it is not visible as Jesus states it comes without observation.

No. Jesus is not saying that the kingdom is "inside us".

Here are several translations of verse 21:

NET: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst.â€Â

NIV: nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you."

NASB: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

NLT: You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is among you."

MSG:Nor when someone says, 'Look here!' or, 'There it is!' And why? Because God's kingdom is already among you."

BBE: And men will not say, See, it is here! or, There! for the kingdom of God is among you.

NRSV: nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you."

NKJV: "nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Note how only 2 of these 8 translations render the last bit as “within youâ€Â. All the other translations have Jesus telling the listeners that the Kingdom is “in your midst†or “among you†– suggesting, of course, that the kingdom is “present right nowâ€Â.

And the fatal blow to the “within you†interpretation arises from who Jesus is speaking to:

Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed

If the interpretation that you offer is correct, Jesus is telling the Pharisees that the kingdom of Gos is within them – the Pharisees.

Not likely, of course – the Pharisees were precisely the ones in whom the kingdom was not present.

 

[Drew]

Christ reigns for 1000 years - Revelation 20 - as Satan is bound and has no authority in the world for that time.

No. You are mis-reading the text if you are suggesting that there is any implication in Revelations 20 that Jesus is only enthroned at the beginning of this 1000 year period. Here is the stuff about the 1000 years:

They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Note that this text does not require us to see Christ's reign as only intiated at the beginning of this 1000 years. It also works with the position that Jesus has been reigning all along and then, at some point in time, these other people are raised to reign with them.

 

[cyberjosh]

If Jesus is ruling this world, any wickedness won't exist. God's kingdom will be perfect peace. That's the whole point of Gods' kingdom. Jesus is inviting all mankind to peaceful world, and heaven.

That's not necessarily true. Even during Jesus' millennial reign, at least at the end, when Satan is loosed there will be one last rebellion (I suppose militarily/politically speaking). It specifically says that he will "deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth" (Revelation 20:7). Also, Isaiah and other OT prophets paint the portrait of the Jews being emissaries to the unreached Gentiles at that time, which means that some may still be unbelievers or people that need to be reached. I imagine that children will still be born during that period of reign on earth and they would be in born with the sinful nature which we all inherited from Adam. Christ's reign will probably be unprecedented in peace, but saying wickedness won't exist at all may not necessarily be true. One verse in Zechariah I think illustrates this and possibly the reinstitution of swift judgment on wickedness under Christ's reign:

“It shall be in that day,†says the LORD of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they shall no longer be remembered. I will also cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to depart from the land.
It shall come to pass that if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who begot him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, because you have spoken lies in the name of the LORD.’ And his father and mother who begot him shall thrust him through when he prophesies. (Zechariah 13:2-3)

That's pretty serious if parents would kill their children with a sword ("thrust him through") for false prophecy in that day. Perhaps Christ's presence will provide no excuse for those who still live wickedly.

Just some thoughts. I am willing to discuss this in more detail if you wish.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Steve76]

Christ reigns for 1000 years - Revelation 20 - as Satan is bound and has no authority in the world for that time.

No. You are mis-reading the text if you are suggesting that there is any implication in Revelations 20 that Jesus is only enthroned at the beginning of this 1000 year period. Here is the stuff about the 1000 years:

They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Note that this text does not require us to see Christ's reign as only intiated at the beginning of this 1000 years. It also works with the position that Jesus has been reigning all along and then, at some point in time, these other people are raised to reign with them.

Point taken but why would it mention the 1000 year reign if Christ was already reigning?

And as a personal opinion, I would not use any other Bible other than the KJV so personally, and with regards to the statements of Jesus saying 'I will be in you' and that the 'Holy spirit' dwells within us, I still see the Kingdom of God being within us and not visible.

Although, this is a personal opinion.

 

[cyberjosh]

To clarify on my last post I do believe that after the resurrection the perfect kingdom of peace will be ushered in, but that will be after the millennial reign and the resurrection of all men and their judgment (assuming I have my eschatological chronology correct). And at that time Christ will hand the kingdom over to His father as we are told in 1 Corinthians 15. Basically, I'm not saying it will be like that (what I described above) forever, just during the millennial reign.

 

[Drew]

Point taken but why would it mention the 1000 year reign if Christ was already reigning?

Because the author is focused on the period of time in which these raised persons would co-reign.

And as a personal opinion, I would not use any other Bible other than the KJV so personally, and with regards to the statements of Jesus saying 'I will be in you' and that the 'Holy spirit' dwells within us, I still see the Kingdom of God being within us and not visible.

Although, this is a personal opinion.

OK, but then you still have the problem that Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, not to you and me across the centuries.

And it is exceedingly unlikely that that Jesus is telling the Pharisees that the Kingdom of God is within them. They are the one who Jesus sees as being outside of the kingdom.

 

[lovely]

Josh,

I was going to write a very similar post in repsonse to Shad. The things you mentioned are some of the reasons that I can no longer say I completely disagree that Jesus is presently reigning, but then I still see a lack of completeness. I admit I still don't fully understand. Can you tell me how you understand the parable of the Ten Minas?

 

[Steve76]

In Revelation 11:15 when the seventh angel blew his trumpet, it is announced in heaven that 'The Kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever'..
Does anyone know when this takes place? If it has not taken place then surely it means that Christ does not reign over the world at the moment..

With regards to the Pharisees, did not Jesus come for everyone and try and teach everyone including gentiles, the truth. Could it be that Jesus was showing them that the Kingdom of God was within them who believe?

 

[Drew]

In Revelation 11:15 when the seventh angel blew his trumpet, it is announced in heaven that 'The Kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever'..
Does anyone know when this takes place? If it has not taken place then surely it means that Christ does not reign over the world at the moment..

That is a good question. But I suggest that if Christ's enthronement has not taken place, we Christians are faced with how to explain the many, and I do mean many, other texts which strongly suggest that Jesus is already enthroned.

With regards to the Pharisees, did not Jesus come for everyone and try and teach everyone including gentiles, the truth. Could it be that Jesus was showing them that the Kingdom of God was withing them who believe?

Possible, but not likely. Suppose that you were in Jesus's shoes and some people whom you knew to be against your kingdom plan asked you about the kingdom, and you wanted to give the message that the kingdom is an "inner" kingdom.

Would you answer: " It is within you"?

I wouldn't. I would say "It is within true believers", or something similar.

 

[Free]

Whether or not evil is increasing is beyond the scope of this debate and not really relevant anyway. If we want to argue that evil is increasing, or in the least that it isn't decreasing, it could very well be because the focus of the Church is incorrect and misguided.

If Jesus is ruling this world, any wickedness won't exist. God's kingdom will be perfect peace. That's the whole point of Gods' kingdom. Jesus is inviting all mankind to peaceful world, and heaven.

Why don't you address my argument that since Jesus can be Lord of the believer and the believer can still sin, then it follows that Jesus can be reigning over the earth despite the existence of evil and a lack of peace? Please address that.

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh,

I was going to write a very similar post in repsonse to Shad. The things you mentioned are some of the reasons that I can no longer say I completely disagree that Jesus is presently reigning, but then I still see a lack of completeness. I admit I still don't fully understand. Can you tell me how you understand the parable of the Ten Minas?

I would be glad to do so but first I must go back and read the parable, as it is not fresh in my mind. I will be off of work in about an hour and I will try to look at it later this afternoon and give you a response then.

God Bless,

~Josh