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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
Jesus is Presently King of the World
- Thread starter Drew
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Free said:
No. Satan will be cast out.
Satan was judged a liar and a thief. Jesus pronouced sentence saying, 'Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out.' Joh 12:31 The sentence will be carried out at the appointed time. Satan will be cast out.
- Apr 2, 2003
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Right. Since Satan will not always be ruler, then it is a matter of when and your truth argument is incorrect. You have provided the verse that makes this clear. In this passage Jesus is speaking of his death and it is within that context that he says "now shall the ruler of this world be cast out." In other words, the time had come for Satan's rule to end.MarkT said:
Drew
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You are begging the question. The fact is that the account, as given, is consistent with both your interpretation and mine. You simply assume that the "return" lies in the future. If you are reading my posts, you will know that I am suggesting that Jesus is setting Himself in the role of the returning nobleman.MarkT said:
Drew
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Many, perhaps most, Christians think that the prophecies in Zechariah 14 – prophecies of a great war in Jerusalem with God coming to the rescue in person as King – have yet to be fulfilled. I disagree. First, here is a text which clearly asserts that when the events of Zech 14 occur, God will become king of the world:
And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only (P)one, and His name the only one
Consider the very last sentence of the chapter as rendered in the NET:
On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord who rules over all.
What is the "house" of the Lord? It is the temple. And what is a Canaanite? It is a merchant or trader. Note how the NRSV translates this last sentence:
And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.
Now note this from Matthew 21:
And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."
Jesus is fulfilling Zechariah 14 with this temple-clearing action. Unless you are going to believe that the temple will be rebuilt and cleared yet again, it seems implausible that Zechariah 14 refers to future events. Jesus knows his scriptures – it stretches credulity to think that He does not know that in clearing the temple, He is fulfilling Zechariah 14.
The Zechariah 14 prophecies were fulfilled in the work of Jesus 2000 years ago. The great Jerusalem battle in Zechariah 14 turns out to have been the defeat of the devil on the cross and the return of God to win the battle took the form of a solitary figure going to that cross.
And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only (P)one, and His name the only one
Consider the very last sentence of the chapter as rendered in the NET:
On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord who rules over all.
What is the "house" of the Lord? It is the temple. And what is a Canaanite? It is a merchant or trader. Note how the NRSV translates this last sentence:
And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.
Now note this from Matthew 21:
And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."
Jesus is fulfilling Zechariah 14 with this temple-clearing action. Unless you are going to believe that the temple will be rebuilt and cleared yet again, it seems implausible that Zechariah 14 refers to future events. Jesus knows his scriptures – it stretches credulity to think that He does not know that in clearing the temple, He is fulfilling Zechariah 14.
The Zechariah 14 prophecies were fulfilled in the work of Jesus 2000 years ago. The great Jerusalem battle in Zechariah 14 turns out to have been the defeat of the devil on the cross and the return of God to win the battle took the form of a solitary figure going to that cross.
Both statements are true. Satan is the ruler of this world and he will be cast out. When Jesus returns it will be a different world. There will be no sin and death. It won't be the same world when Satan is cast out.
So when Jesus spoke of 'this world', he was using a figure of speech. The ruler of this world is Satan. This world is the world that doesn't know God, the world that has never seen God, the world that doesn't know his Son.
Drew
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- Jan 24, 2005
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You are free to believe this, but it is certainly not a Biblical position.MarkT said:
The case is overwhelming as the transcript of this thread shows:
1. Jesus is presently King
2. Satan was effectively king, but was defeated and replaced by Jesus 2000 years ago.
Adullam
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- Mar 28, 2009
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Drew said:
This is of course completely inaccurate. God gave man dominion over the earth. (see verses below) It is we who allow satan to rule over us. He is not a king, he is a usurper and a politician. When we follow the systems he has set up, we follow him. When Jesus returns He will not be king of a deposed king....but King of kings...ie...the kings of the earth. Man still rules here in the present and satan administers by man's connivance. To not see this is to be deeply deceived.
Jesus does not take dominion over the earth...he waits for our surrender and God's intervention. God will then force the world to be under the dominion of His Son together with the saints who shall rule with Him.
God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth (Gen. 1:26)."
Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth (Gen. 1:28).â€
researcher
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- Mar 15, 2009
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Drew said:
Fascinating. I've never seen that, lol. Sure clears up some of the mystery of why there won't be "Canaanites" in the house, LOL. ;) :D
Literal Version
Zec 14:21 And every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holy to Jehovah of Hosts. And all those who sacrifice shall come and take of them, and boil in them. And in that day there shall not be a trader in the house of Jehovah of Hosts any more.
Young's Literal Version
Zec 14:21 And every pot in Jerusalem, and in Judah, Have been holy to Jehovah of Hosts, And all those sacrificing have come in, And have taken of them, and boiled in them, And there is no merchant any more in the house of Jehovah of Hosts in that day!
Jewish Publication Society Bible
Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holy unto the LORD of hosts; and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein; and in that day there shall be no more a trafficker in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Douay Rheims Bible
Zec 14:21 And every caldron in Jerusalem and Juda shall be sanctified to the Lord of hosts: and all that sacrifice shall come, and take of them, and shall seethe in them: and the merchant shall be no more in the house of the Lord of hosts in that day.
The same word is used here:
Isa 23:8 Who hath purposed this against Tyre, the bestower of crowns, whose merchants are princes, whose traffickers are the honorable of the earth?
Job 41:6 Will the bands of fishermen make traffic of him? Will they part him among the merchants?
Excellent find, Drew. Fascinating.
- Apr 2, 2003
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You have only provided two passages, both of which were prior to the Fall. Please provide some post-Fall verses to support your assertion that man "still rules here in the present."Adullam said:
I've posted this somewhere regarding this subject:
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. (ESV)
And that is in the immediate context of Jesus' death and resurrection.
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe.
Joh 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me,
Joh 16:11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
It is Biblical. Satan is the cause of sin and death. How can you possibly argue that Jesus is ruling over this world of sin and death. You're making Jesus the devil. Many Christians are being misled.
Satan's rule ends when Jesus returns and he sits on his glorious throne. Jesus said, 'Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne' Mt. 19:28 Notice Jesus said in the 'new world' as opposed to 'this world', and he said he 'shall' sit meaning it will be so when he returns which implies he has to leave first and then he will return. After he leaves, he receives his kingship. Then, as the parable says, he returns to reign over all.
Often Jesus said he was not of this world. He said, 'You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.' John 8:23
Paul wrote, 'Do not be conformed to this world' Ro. 12:2 Why would he say that if Jesus became the ruler of this world? Wouldn't he say 'be conformed to it' instead? And why does he speak of the world rulers of this 'present' darkness Ephesians 6:12 if this world is not presently dark?
Drew said:
It's you saying the temple clearing action is fulfilling Zechariah. How do you know it is not a portent of things to come? You think Zechariah is speaking of that particular day when Jesus drove the money lenders out of the temple.
Zechariah said on that day there shall neither be cold nor frost.' That day hasn't come yet. There is still cold and frost and there has been since Jesus left.
'And there shall be continuous day (it is known to the LORD), not day and not night, for at evening there shall be light.' There is not continuous day yet and there has not been since Jesus left.
'On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea; it shall continue in summer as in winter. Zec 14:6-8 It still gets hot in summer and cold in winter.
Jesus drove human beings out of the temple. Do you think Satan was cast out of the temple? But Jesus said he was the temple. You have no understanding Drew. Zechariah said there shall no longer be a trader in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day. This can only be when Jesus returns - because he said 'no longer' which implies an end of things as they are. Things will not be as they are nor will they go back to being as they are. Obviously those things, greed, the love of money, etc. did not come to an end when the money lenders were driven out. Jesus said evil doers would be gathered out of his kingdom at the close of the age.
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And yet, no one has said that the Head rules without the Body--that Jesus will rule without the saints. In fact, I think it has been stated quite clearly that that is indeed what the current situation is. As for the devil ruling, you have yet to provide one substantial verse for support whereas several have been provided that show Jesus rules now and his rule is carried out through believers.Adullam said:
Drew
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- #138
I believe my statements are accurate. There has been no scriptural evidnence put forward in this thread that challenges the view that Jesus is presently King and that Satan was deposed from rulership of this world at the cross.Adullam said:
I am not sure how these verses are relevant to the matter at issue.Adullam said:
Adullam, I challenge you to make any scriptural argument against the present kingship of Jesus, or that Satan is in any sense "ruler" of the world this side of the cross.
Drew
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Thanks, but this "find" is not original to me.researcher said:Excellent find, Drew. Fascinating.
However, I think that understanding that Zech 14 aligns "the enthronement" of YHWH" with the expulsion of traders from the temple is an excellent argument for the present kingship of Jesus. And, as I suspect you will agree, it is also an argument against "full on futurism" which misreads Biblical apocalyptic imagery.
Drew
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- #140
We have been through this before, I think. But in case you were not involved, I will repeat the argument.MarkT said:
Some assert that Jesus cannot be King right now because there is suffering and wickedness in the world. This position cannot be sustained Bibilcally.
The key text is this one from 1 Corinthians 15:
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
My argument follows:
1. The assertion is that Jesus cannot be reigning now since there is presently suffering and wickedness – the present reality of such things are seen as inconsistent with the assertion that Jesus presently reigns;
2. Paul says that Jesus must reign until all enemies have been defeated;
3. This means that, at some points in his reign, there will remain enemies yet to be defeated;
4. Suffering and wickedness are two possible candidates - two of the enemies that, at some point (or points) in the reign, could remain undefeated.
5. One of these points could be the present time.
6. Therefore the assertion that that Jesus cannot be reigning now since there is presently suffering and wickedness is overturned.
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