Jesus is Presently King of the World

[Steve76]

In Revelation 11:15 when the seventh angel blew his trumpet, it is announced in heaven that 'The Kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever'..
Does anyone know when this takes place? If it has not taken place then surely it means that Christ does not reign over the world at the moment..

That is a good question. But I suggest that if Christ's enthronement has not taken place, we Christians are faced with how to explain the many, and I do mean many, other texts which strongly suggest that Jesus is already enthroned.

With regards to the Pharisees, did not Jesus come for everyone and try and teach everyone including gentiles, the truth. Could it be that Jesus was showing them that the Kingdom of God was withing them who believe?

Possible, but not likely. Suppose that you were in Jesus's shoes and some people whom you knew to be against your kingdom plan asked you about the kingdom, and you wanted to give the message that the kingdom is an "inner" kingdom.

Would you answer: " It is within you"?

I wouldn't. I would say "It is within true believers", or something similar.

But they were true believers, more interested in laws, purification and sin rather than God's love..

 

[Drew]

Can you tell me how you understand the parable of the Ten Minas?

If I may insert my snout here, even though the question was not directed at me.

I suggest that that the servants are not people who have to give account of themselves at Jesus' 2nd coming.

They are instead Jews who are being "called to account" by Jesus, who functions as the returning nobleman. The question for these Jews is: Have you been faithful to your covenantal obligations?

This reading, therefore, does not work against the assertion that Jesus was enthroned 2000 years ago.

 

[lovely]

Thanks Josh, I appreciate you taking the time.

Drew, I appreciate you 'inserting your snout', and I am going to read it again with that in mind. Thanks.

 

[shad]

To clarify on my last post I do believe that after the resurrection the perfect kingdom of peace will be ushered in, but that will be after the millennial reign and the resurrection of all men and their judgment (assuming I have my eschatological chronology correct). And at that time Christ will hand the kingdom over to His father as we are told in 1 Corinthians 15. Basically, I'm not saying it will be like that (what I described above) forever, just during the millennial reign.

First, Jesus will judge all mankind and then millennium begin, everyone will perish if they sin during 1000 year reign of Jesus and His elect, and satan is bound too during the 1000 year reign. So we cannot blame anyone for our sin. We cannot see any wickedness even 1000 year reign. After millennium, satan will be released for a short period time to test people who never had chance to be tempted by satan.

 

[MarkT]

Besides, let's be clear here, you are changing what Paul has actually written. Why do you think that is acceptable? Did you think I (or others) would not detect this?

Let's compare what Paul has written to what you have posted. First, Paul's statement:

He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come

...and now your statement:

MarkT wrote:
He is the King of kings and the Lord of lords. And God put all things under his feet and made him head over all things for the church

Why have you added this qualification that the scope of authority is limited to the church. Paul does not add this qualification. So why do you?

I said God made him the head over all things for the church. That's Ephesians 1:22 It follows Ephesians 1:20 and 1:21.

 

[MarkT]

According to the parable of the pounds, Luke 19:11-27, a nobleman went into a far country to receive kingly power (or a kingdom) and then return. Jesus went to the far country (heaven) to receive his kingly power. So he is the King. However he has not returned. When he returns he will reward his servants and punish the wicked. And the parable says, his citizens hated him and sent an embassy after him saying, 'we do not want this man to reign over us.' So when he returns, his enemies, who did not want him to rule over them, will be brought to him and slain.

I think that your intepretation of this passage is probably not what Jesus intended.

You have Jesus assuming the role of the nobleman who is about to leave and, when he returns (i.e. the 2nd coming), assume his "kingship". Well that is one way to read the passage.

But there is another way which I think is correct. In that reading, Jesus is set in the role of the returning nobleman. And the servants that he judges are Jews who have been entrusted with the covenantal obligation to be a light to the nations.

The passage works fine on such a reading, I think.[quote:2ecefsz2]

Jesus is "YHWH returning to Zion" - Jesus is the returning king, not the departing King. The departing King was God who, long before Jesus, "left" his people in the sense that He abandoned the temple and sent the Jews into exile.

Now I have not substantially argued for the correctness of this interpretation. But it is a valid alternative to the interpretation that you offer.

[/quote:2ecefsz2]

That wouldn't make sense since Jesus gave them the parable because they were near Jerusalem and the crowd supposed the kingdom of God would appear immediately. So the understanding of the parable has to do with the events that must take place before Jesus will reign. Basically Jesus said he had to go away to receive the kingship and then he would return and reign over his people. It's enough for this discussion, however, there is more to it than that.

 

[MarkT]

Jesus taught us Satan was the ruler of this world. Paul's writings agree with the Lord's teaching. You want to argue with the Lord? Wait for his return.

Where, and please provide specific texts, does either Jesus or Paul say or write anything, that establishes that Satan is ruler of the world, this side of the cross?

Joh 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out;

Joh 14:30
I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me;

Joh 16:11
concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Jesus calls him the ruler of this world; the words of God don't change this side or that side of the cross. Truth doesn't change. The devil is the ruler of this world. And many of you will mistake him for Jesus Christ.

Jesus said to his disciples, 'Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones'. Mt. 20:28

Notice he doesn't say,' in this world'. He says, 'in the new world'.

 

[Drew]

I said God made him the head over all things for the church. That's Ephesians 1:22 It follows Ephesians 1:20 and 1:21.

The fact that He is declared head of the church in Ephesians 1 does not mean that He is not elsewhere declared king over all.

That would be like saying that a statement that Pres. Obama is commander-in-cheif means that he cannot head over anything else.

Yes Jesus is head over the church. But that does not mean that the church is the only thing over which he is head.

 

[Drew]

That wouldn't make sense since Jesus gave them the parable because they were near Jerusalem and the crowd supposed the kingdom of God would appear immediately. So the understanding of the parable has to do with the events that must take place before Jesus will reign.

No. It makes perfect sense. If the issue is the question of when the kingdom will appear, Jesus can be understood as answering "Right now, I am the returning king".

 

[Drew]

Where, and please provide specific texts, does either Jesus or Paul say or write anything, that establishes that Satan is ruler of the world, this side of the cross?

Joh 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out;

Joh 14:30
I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me;

Joh 16:11
concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Jesus calls him the ruler of this world; the words of God don't change this side or that side of the cross.[ Truth doesn't change. The devil is the ruler of this world. And many of you will mistake him for Jesus Christ.

Saying "truth doesn't change" in this setting is like saying, Jesus cannot have changed anything through his action on the cross since "truth doesn't change". That would be like saying "Jesus could not have won the victory sin and death on the cross since sin and death were the dominant forces in the world before Jesus went to the cross and truth doesn't change."

Satan was ruler of the world before Jesus won His victory on the Cross.

 

[shad]

Satan was ruler of the world before Jesus won His victory on the Cross.

He is still ruler of the world.

.

 

[Free]

He is still ruler of the world.

Please respond to my previous post.

 

[shad]

[

Why don't you address my argument that since Jesus can be Lord of the believer and the believer can still sin, then it follows that Jesus can be reigning over the earth despite the existence of evil and a lack of peace? Please address that.

I am talking about Jesus will make perfect peace. He will perform extreme make over. There is not going to be anymore sorrow. what don't you understand?

Revelation 21 says "1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarsâ€â€their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Rev 21:8 shows unrepentant sinners won't be there.

the point is there will be a new earth when Jesus reigns, the above verses explain what will happen when Jesus reigns.

 

[Free]

That passage says nothing about whether or not Jesus is reigning now, which is the topic of this thread. And you are still avoiding answering my previous argument. Is my argument sound? Does it adequately rebut your argument that Jesus is not reigning because of evil in the world?

 

[MarkT]

Saying "truth doesn't change" in this setting is like saying, Jesus cannot have changed anything through his action on the cross since "truth doesn't change". That would be like saying "Jesus could not have won the victory sin and death on the cross since sin and death were the dominant forces in the world before Jesus went to the cross and truth doesn't change."

Satan was ruler of the world before Jesus won His victory on the Cross.

Nope. Truth is spoken. Truth is what Jesus gave us - what God gave him to say. The truth that comes from God does not change. It is not true one day and false the next day. Jesus called Satan the ruler of this world. If you don't believe him then what part do you have in him?

 

[shad]

That passage says nothing about whether or not Jesus is reigning now, which is the topic of this thread. And you are still avoiding answering my previous argument. Is my argument sound? Does it adequately rebut your argument that Jesus is not reigning because of evil in the world?

If you cannot see what these verses are saying I dont know what to tell you and I cannot help you.

take care.

.

 

[Free]

Nope. Truth is spoken. Truth is what Jesus gave us - what God gave him to say. The truth that comes from God does not change. It is not true one day and false the next day. Jesus called Satan the ruler of this world.

Will Satan always be ruler?

If you cannot see what these verses are saying I dont know what to tell you and I cannot help you.

I understand perfectly well what that passage is saying but it is clear that you either do not understand my point or you do and you don't want to address it. :gah

 

[Adullam]

The point is not whether Jesus is a king or not...but whether He is indeed the reigning King of the world. God Himself has always been sovereign. He has not imposed His will on His creation. So it is with His Christ, Jesus. We are free to surrender to the coming King. When Jesus returns He will conquer the world. The time of voluntary surrender will have ended. Every knee shall bow. There will be fighting and blood....a war! THEN the reign of Jesus Christ will begin in this world. Of course His saints will already have been serving Him as King before His earthly return.

So we are taliking of the difference between the voluntary surrender to Jesus the King right now. Or the time to come when Jesus will literally rule the world from Jerusalem. Now is the spiritual reign...no one can see Jesus. And when He returns He will reign in this reality....a visible rule. Too simple?

 

[Drew]

Saying "truth doesn't change" in this setting is like saying, Jesus cannot have changed anything through his action on the cross since "truth doesn't change". That would be like saying "Jesus could not have won the victory sin and death on the cross since sin and death were the dominant forces in the world before Jesus went to the cross and truth doesn't change."

Satan was ruler of the world before Jesus won His victory on the Cross.

Nope. Truth is spoken. Truth is what Jesus gave us - what God gave him to say. The truth that comes from God does not change. It is not true one day and false the next day. Jesus called Satan the ruler of this world. If you don't believe him then what part do you have in him?

This is simply incorrect.

Look at how your logic would play out in a different scenario

1. On January 15, 2009, the "truth" about the presidency is that George W. Bush was president.
2. On October 16, 2009, George W. Bush must still be president since "truth doesn't change"

Obviously such logic is incorrect.

No where in the scriptures is there any statement that "Satan is ruler of the world forever". Some truths never change, but not the truth about who is installed as king over the earth.

 

[Drew]

The point is not whether Jesus is a king or not...but whether He is indeed the reigning King of the world. God Himself has always been sovereign. He has not imposed His will on His creation. So it is with His Christ, Jesus. We are free to surrender to the coming King. When Jesus returns He will conquer the world. The time of voluntary surrender will have ended. Every knee shall bow. There will be fighting and blood....a war! THEN the reign of Jesus Christ will begin in this world. Of course His saints will already have been serving Him as King before His earthly return.

So we are taliking of the difference between the voluntary surrender to Jesus the King right now. Or the time to come when Jesus will literally rule the world from Jerusalem. Now is the spiritual reign...no one can see Jesus. And when He returns He will reign in this reality....a visible rule. Too simple?

You have no scriptural evidence to support this position that Jesus' kingship over this world only begins in the future. You are expressing a position here, but it needs to be defended.